if a ogre gets bit by a werewolf and gains lycanthropy can that orge use multi-attack even if the ogre doesn't have 3natural attacks in its base form??
They can qualify for and take the feat so long as one of their forms has three or more natural attacks, but they do not gain its benefits when in a form that has fewer than 3 natural attacks.
RAW is that you need to qualify for a feat at the time you take it (and when you want to use it), regardless of how you qualify or whether it's with permanent stuff. That means that the ogre in question needs to level up while having three natural weapons, or retrain a feat while having three natural weapons.
With ogres not having any natural weapons, and werewolves only havign a single bite in their animal or hybrid form, unless the ogre has e.g. a level in Shifter, I don't see how they qualify.
Not that I know why they would want to.
so a orge can't take multiattack if hes a werebear ??sry i meant to say werebear not werewolf
Werebear changes things. Bears have a bite and two claws, so in animal or hybrid form a werebear does qualify for Multiattack.
The problem here is that an afflicted lycanthrope loses control when in animal or hybrid form, with the book outright telling the GM to take over PCs when in such forms. The ogre would need to level up (to an odd level) while basically out of their mind. The Bestiary isn't clear about how animalistic an afflicted lycanthrope is. Multiattack does nothign for an animal form werebear, so it only makes ense for them to select the feat if they've regained enough control to use a weapon in hybrid form.
Is this for a PC or an NPC?
pc hes a ogre werebear but wants to kno if he can use multiattack bcuz the ogre doesnt hav natural attacks only when it changes form??
HE wants to kno if he qualify for the feat??
"When a PC becomes a lycanthrope, you as the GM have a choice to make. In most cases, you should take control of the PC’s actions whenever he is in hybrid or animal form—lycanthropy shouldn’t be a method to increase a PC’s power, after all, and what an afflicted lycanthrope does while in animal or hybrid form is often at odds with what the character would actually want. If a player wants to play a lycanthrope, he should play a natural lycanthrope and follow the guidelines on page 313 for playing a character of a powerful race." B1 pg. 197
RAW answer: When leveling up while in hybrid or animal form, the character does qualify, but the player can't ever use the feat, because at the time the character qualifies, the player isn't in control of the character.
Lycanthropy is literally a curse, you're supposed to try to remove it as soon as possible.
this is Lycanthropy campaign all pc's hav Lycanthropy now since hes a ogre can he qualify for the feat or not??
I answered that question in literally every single post I made in this thread.
The way I understand the requirements to access things is as long as you have a reliable means to access the required thing, then you can take the thing that requires it when level up.
For example, a human wizard cannot naturally fly, but once they gain a spell providing flight, that is considered reliable enough to allow you to put ranks into the fly skill.
In my mind, being a werebear lycanthrope means you have reliable enough access to a form that has 3 natural attacks, and as such could take multi-attack feat. You don't need to "level up while being in hybrid form", especially since leveling up isn't narratively like some specific moment of something happening. But, even though the character might have the feat that could only use it while in hybrid or animal form.
can he still take the feat even tho he has natural attacks in has form can somebody take feats even tho the dont hav requirements??
Claxon answered you already, but allow me to try a different approach:
For example, an Ogre does not naturally have three or more natural attacks, but once he becomes a lycanthrope and gains access to a form that has three or more natural attacks, that is considered reliable enough to allow you to get the Multiattack feat.
can he still take the feat even tho he has natural attacks in has form can somebody take feats even tho the dont hav requirements??
Like I said three times already, he qualifies if he selects the feat after leveling up in hybrid form or animal form. If he levels up in regular ogre form, he does not qualify.
The way I understand the requirements to access things is as long as you have a reliable means to access the required thing, then you can take the thing that requires it when level up.
That's not an actual rule for anything but fly skill ranks.
I have recommended a houserule like that on multiple occations, although truth be told, just using the strict RAW that lets e.g. a Potion of Enlarge Person qualify a Str 12 character to take Power Attack if they level up under the effects of the potion doesn't really make much of a difference. You need to qualify to use a feat, so not having a reliable means of qualifying doesn't really dop you any good. The sole exception is taking feats before you get the class feature that lets you qualify on a regular basis, but that's so rare it probably doesn't matter at all.
Derklord, I did not understand your your shorthand what book is page 313 for playing a character of a powerful race." B1 pg. 197 in. Thanks in advance.
B1 (= Bestiary 1) pg. 197 is the source for what I quoted. The reference to page 313 is part of the quote. Unlike the original quote, which is from a sidebar and because of that not on AoN, the text from page 313 can be found here.
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There is no "exact moment" of level up.
"Sorry guys, the archer killed a squirrel and the group shares xp. we level up right this second" isn't a thing
If they can meet the pre req they can take the feat. They can't use it when they don't currently meet the req, but when they meet it again it will kick back in
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A character levels up after the GM assigns the XP which is usually at the end of a session. This happens outside the game so the actions of the character should have no bearing on anything to do with leveling up.
I would also say that the lycanthrope does actually have the natural attacks even if he is not currently using them. This is no different than a character with a sword that is in a sheathe. By Derklord’s method a fighter could not take weapon focus without having the weapon in hand when he level up. This would also prevent many other feats from being taken. This could also prevent taking certain prestige classes. Arcane trickster has a prerequisite of being able to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher. According to Derklord if a wizard did not have mage hand memorized when he gained a level or had cast all his 2nd level or higher spells, he could not take a level in Arcane Trickster.
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Derklord, I think you're being overly literal in your interpretation of the rules saying you need to be in hybrid or animal form, especially as everyone else is in agreement that leveling up doesn't happen in some specific moment so there's not even a specific character state that could apply.
The rule that any feat that you possess but aren't currently meeting the requirements for is unusable is enough of a control.
There is no "exact moment" of level up.
"Sorry guys, the archer killed a squirrel and the group shares xp. we level up right this second" isn't a thing
I'm not sure if this was an attempt at Appeal to Ridicule (trying to distract from my argument by painting it as ridiculous), or a False Dichotomy (you think or say that the only options are "no exact moment" and "in the middle of combat"), but in either case, you're wrong. There usually is an exact moment of level up, it's when the GM says you level up. It doesn't (normally*) happen in combat, but if you level up at the end of a session, which I assume is the most common method, that is still very much an "exact moment". Unless the session ends at the end of day, and sometimes even then, you need to note down (or at least remember) active buffs, anyway, as that's relevant for the next session. Like, the Druid doesn't shift out of Wild Shape just because the session ended.
That means the information is already there.
Indeed, the only situation where there would be an exact moment is if the GM makes levelling up part of resting for the day, and even then you could determine the state of long lasting (or as in this case permanent duration) effects.
*) I could see it being done if the last session ended with the PCs just below a levelup, and the GM asks the players to prepare leveled-up char sheets for next session.
By Derklord’s method a fighter could not take weapon focus without having the weapon in hand when he level up.
Either your understanding of the rules is even poorer than I thought, or you, too, are deliberately misleading. Weapon Focus asks for "Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.", neither part requires a weapon in hand. Saying my presentation of the rules must be wrong because it would make feats like Weapon Focus not work is an argument build on an objectively faulty premise, and thus unsound.
Also, it's not "my method", it's what the rules say. "Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat." CRB pg. 112
The rules say "must have". Not "must be able to aquire on a daily basis", or whatever. Contrast "Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other special ability)." Do you see anything like that in the feat rules?
Don't blame me for what the rules say.
If the character levels up while in ogre form, he doesn't have three natural weapons, and thus does not fulfill the prerequisites of Multiattack. That they could transform into a creature that does have those natural weapons is irrelevant, because the rules don't care. On the flip side, if the character does level up in hybrid form (which a lycanthrope in control of their actions is probably in 24/7), he does qualify, because at that time he does have three natural weapons, and the rules don't care about how permanent or temporary they are.
I'm not saying this is how it needs to be played, indeed, I've been advocating what I call the "fly skill approach" for five years. But the written rules are what they are, whether we like it or not. Any and all houserules should be based on understanding what the actual rules are.
Arcane trickster has a prerequisite of being able to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher. According to Derklord if a wizard did not have mage hand memorized when he gained a level or had cast all his 2nd level or higher spells, he could not take a level in Arcane Trickster.
At worst, that's not "According to Derklord", but rather "according to the rules as written". And don't get me wrong, there are ruels that don't work (strictly) as written, but I think this here is not such casee, here's why: The Paladin's spells class feature says "a paladin gains the ability to cast", transferable for Ranger. Assuming that the casters all work pretty much the same, this tells us that the "ability to cast" is something you gain from the class feature, not a game state in which you have open spell slots or uncast prepared spells. Therefore, the phrase "the ability to cast" does not mean "be able to cast spells right now", but rather "has the spells class feature".
especially as everyone else is in agreement that leveling up doesn't happen in some specific moment so there's not even a specific character state that could apply.
First, it's at most three people, second, two of them make decidedly faulty arguments, and third, if a million people insist that 2+2=5, I will still say it's 4. The truth is not determined by popular vote.
There usually is an exact moment of level up, it's when the GM says you level up.
This makes your entire argument moot.
For example, if a fighter gets baleful polymorphed, and then a short time later the GM says, "Ok, sessions over, everyone level up for next session." No sane rational GM is going to tell the fighter player they can't pick power attack as a feat because, as a bunny, they do not currently have a str of 13.
Sure, technically you are right, by an over pedantic reading of the RAW, it is not allowed - but this is a clear case of where the GM steps in and uses the rules as a guideline, not as a contract. RAW that leads to stupid results isn't meaningful or useful RAW. It becomes pretty clear then that the rules for meeting the requirements at level up are for normal circumstances. Eg, I can't take power attack if my str is 11 but I promise to buy a belt of str +2 sometime in the future.
A GM can (and should) make allowances for unusual circumstances. I recognize that you agree with this sentiment given your advocacy of the fly skill style rules being more widespread.
Requiring the ogre to be in werebear form at the "exact moment of level up" is a similar situation.
In a normal campaign where lycanthropy is truly the curse it is, I would not allow choosing this particular feat, but that has nothing to do with the purist RAW perspective.
Sure, technically you are right, by an over pedantic reading of the RAW, it is not allowed - but this is a clear case of where the GM steps in and uses the rules as a guideline, not as a contract. RAW that leads to stupid results isn't meaningful or useful RAW.
It's not an overly pedantic reading, it's the only possible reading without adding something.
My posts are about what the rules say. Everyone else seems to be arguing based on what they believe a GM should rule. Those are not the same thing! I say that RAW a werebear needs to level up in hybrid or animal form to qualify for the feat. If people think that this is not how it should be done, that does not make me wrong.
If the rules as I report them have unwanted consequences, that doesn't make my report wrong, it means (or at least can also mean) that the rules are flawed.
Like you said, RAW is not a contract. Knowing what the rules are isn't a bad thing. It helps people make an informed decision, not one out of ignorance.
It becomes pretty clear then that the rules for meeting the requirements at level up are for normal circumstances. Eg, I can't take power attack if my str is 11 but I promise to buy a belt of str +2 sometime in the future.
If you don't use the RAW, what do you use? Because when using the "fly skill approach", the 11 strength 3rd level Magus does qualify for Power Attack, as they could cast Bull's Strength, and thus have a daily mean to qualify. Well, assuming they've learned the spell. So instead of checking the character state at the time of level up, we now have to check their spell book at the time of level up? Is that really better?
For example, if a fighter gets baleful polymorphed, and then a short time later the GM says, "Ok, sessions over, everyone level up for next session." No sane rational GM is going to tell the fighter player they can't pick power attack as a feat because, as a bunny, they do not currently have a str of 13.
Ignoring that Baleful Polymorph is at worst a -4 penalty to strength, I think there are worse rulings than "if you're (currently) a creature incapable of using Power Attack, you can't (currently) learn how to use Power Attack".
My posts are about what the rules say.
I acknoledge this.
Sure, technically you are right...
You are being pedantic because you keep emphasizing the player could only take the feat if they were in werebear form at the exact time you level up. And like I said, technically you are correct.
Its moot, as a result of GM deciding when you level up makes it moot. If the GM wants to disqualify you from the feat, the GM can say you level up when not in werebear form. If the GM wants you to be able to take the feat, they can decide you level up while in werebear form. Or the GM can skip all the rigamorale and say you either can or cannot take the feat. So the entire emphasis on being able to take the feat only if they level up while in werebear form is a meaningless distinction.
If you don't use the RAW, what do you use?
No objection to using RAW as the base. But I see no point in arguing for a RAW that
1) Everyone ignores2) Doesn't pass common sense
3) Doesn't fit clear RAI (not that I think this particular scenario has a clear RAI)
Pre-metamagic FAQ, a wand of fireball and a wand of maximized fireball cost the same if we want to strictly follow what the rules say. But it fails all 3 of those above observations.
While a discussion about RAW has some value, the real value is in how it affects a game. The RAW in this particular instance has no meaningful affect in game as the GM can entirely control whether the level up would occur at a qualifying time or not - or just skip the entire mess.
...the 11 strength 3rd level Magus does qualify for Power Attack, as they could cast Bull's Strength, and thus have a daily mean to qualify. Well, assuming they've learned the spell. So instead of checking the character state at the time of level up, we now have to check their spell book at the time of level up? Is that really better?
That is a very subjective question that each group of players will have to answer for themselves. But is checking the magus spellbook for the bull's strength spell any different than checking the wizards spellbook for the fly spell?
Ignoring that Baleful Polymorph is at worst a -4 penalty to strength...
The -4 may be enough. Depends on the fighers starting stats. If you don't like baleful polymorph as an example, use multiple maximized rays of enfeeblement. The point remains.
Ultimately for the orginal posters question, it is going to entirely be up to their GM to decide.
I expect we agree on the following:
You have accurately quoted what the RAW is.
Others have pointed out how everyone actually plays the game in regards to leveling pu.
Given the GM is already breaking the rules of lycanthropy, this is entirely a GM call regardless.
Ability damage only applies to skills and statistics based on the ability. A fighter with 16 Strength and a –4 penalty to Strength would still have 16 Strength, they would have a –2 penalty to attack and damage and their encumbrance (a statistic based on Str) would count as being 12. They wouldn't lose access to their feats.
Note that ability drain does actually reduce an ability, but ability drain is considered permanent in most cases, not temporary.
Thanks for that correction.
Baleful polymorph would still be an issue for a fighter who started at 16 str or less and thus dropped to 12 or less as that strength change is permanent till the poly is removed.
My other example of ray of enfeeblement should be discarded in favor of something has done ability drain. If drained below 13 should the GM allow the player to take power attack? Does that answer change if the cleric will be able to cast a restoration in the morning? Or if there is a city nearby the fighter will travel too?
I could see for a brutal survival mode campaign setting without a healer in the party that the player be prevented from taking it. But I would consider that a special case.
There is an exact moment when you level up, but it is in real-time not game time. Let’s say the GM gives out XP at 5:47 PM on July 4th 2023. What time is that in the game? Game time and real time do not map out exactly. Let’s say that the game ends after you finish killing the BBG in a cave and the next session the GM skips ahead to when you are in town a day later. When did your character level up in game time. Did you level up right after the combat, on your way to town, or at the tavern while having a drink?
@Derklor you are right about the sword, but what about the ability to cast spells for Arcane Trickster? Arcane Trickster lists “Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher” as a requirement. Does that mean that a wizard would have to have mage hand memorized to take a level in Arcane Trickster? There are also feats that the prerequisite includes the ability to cast specific spells. Would a character that knows the spell, but is unable to cast it (due to not being memorized or not having an appropriate spell slot) be able to take the feat?