Can you use the strength bonus from rage to qualify for feats that require a certain amount of strength? My old DM, who is now a player is convinced his character with 10 strength can take power attack because he is able to use his barbarian rage to qualify for it as he only uses it during rages. He's often aware of little rules that others arent, is this one of them?
To satisfy a prerequisite it has to be a permanent bonus, and something is only counted as a permanent bonus after 24 hours. Sou unless he has 14400 rounds of rage he won't be able to use that to satisfy a perequisite.
This is not actually a written rule (anymore at least), and Paizo developers have posted conflicting answers on it in the past. Given the "a temporary bonus is basically the same as a permanent bonus" FAQ, I can't see anything preventing taking the feat while you have a temporary bonus to qualify. You would only have access to the feat while you had the prerequisite, though.
(...) he would only be able to use it during a rage as he otherwise doesn't meet the pre req.
The player is aware of this, as written in the opening post.
As this is the rules questions forum: based on which rule would you not let him take it? Just asking.
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As a GM I would say no, it doesn't qualify. Would you allow a spell enhancement, lets say Enlarge Person or Bulls Strength, to be applied towards the minimum prerequisite? Are they only able to practice for a minute every day?
On the other hand, did this particular GM allow you or other players leeway with their characters when they were running the game? If so, you might want to allow it.
What certainly would work by the rules would be wearing a +4 item for a day... maybe a borrowed one?
Given that that would work, I think it's reasonable to just allow it.
It's definitely legal to get around it for "free" by borrowing someone's magic item for a day to get a "permanent" bonus, then giving it back after taking the feat. Given that, there's little reason to bother with the runaround. But if RAW is all you can use, I can only point to the above FAQ that essentially errata'd out the difference between temporary and permanent ability score bonuses.
Here's what the rules say: "Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat." CRB pg. 112
Absolutely no mention that you need a permanent bonus. The whole "temporary bonuses" thing comes from pg. 554f where the CRB say that "For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.", but this is explicitly overruled by the aforementioned FAQ: "Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do."
As I've argued not long ago, "anything" is not really a vague term.
The most official explicit thing I've seen so far was Lead Designer Jason Bulmahn stating in the Brawler Playtest thread that "brawler can use the feats granted by brawler's flurry to qualify for other feats, but can only use those other feats when using brawler's flurry (as that's the only time she actually meets those prerequisites)." The brawler only temporarily possesses the granted feats (Two-Weapon Fighting, mainly), and only when he uses Flurry as a full-attack action. If a combat-only Brawler ability's temporary effects count for feat prereqs, I don't see why a Barbarian's free action acivated ability's temporary effects shouldn't.
Now, the FAQ does lead to problems (because it removes the old concept that temporary bonuses don't grant bonus spells per day or skill ranks), and "I chuck a potion of Enlarge Person just before levelup" sounds ungainly game-y to me, and that's why I personally prefer the "fly skill aproach": A character can take a feat it they possess a reliable means of fulfilling its prerequisites every day.
Most of the time, it doesn't really change much. Sure, the dex-to-damage Savage Technologist can use Power Attack instead of Piranha Strike, so he can take a one-handed instead of light weapon. That +1 to average damage will really wreck game balance!!!
There are more extreme feats (pouncing Barbs, Bloodragers, Shifters or Druids with Awesome Charge, for instance), but I'd handle those on a case-by-case basis.
Ah I assumed you needed to permanently meet prereqs, I never saw the brawler FAQ or considered the "fly skill approach" or borrowed items. I think rage qualifies as something he can reliably do every day so thats convincing enough, or if he borrowed an item to get the feat and rage allows him to requalify then thats also fine.
Thanks for the answers.
I think the strict rules answer used to be "no", but due to an FAQ it looks like it's changed to a "yes".
From my perspective having a low strength barbarian doesn't look like an OP character, so i can't see any reason not to allow it. However since this player knows more rules (more tricks?) than you do, you would be within your rights to ask what his plan is and decide based on that.
TLDR: If he's found some weird loophole that makes his character OP you're allowed to say no, but if he just likes nerfing himself for the challenge then it doesn't seem like a problem.
He's playing an old "scholarly barbarian" and decided he wants to have better intelligence, dex and con than strength, but still wants power attack to stay relevant in fights. He might be building towards something weird in the long term, but for now it seems ok to let him.
Thanks again.
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Conan the Librarian?
Conan the Librarian?
Haha im stealing that.
I stole if from the movie UHF, which is amazimg still.
I never saw the brawler FAQ or considered the "fly skill approach" or borrowed items.
Just so there are no misconceptions, it's not actually an FAQ. Indeed, it's not something regarding the actual commercially published game, it's from the ACG playtest. Of course, it's still the lead designer talking, it's a rare case of an official forum post, and it does make it clear what Paizo's RAI position on the general topic is.
The 'fly skill approach' is pure houserule, basically an attempt to fill a rule gap with the extrapolation of an existing rule, mostly on grounds of "sounds sensible".Burrowing a magic item is defintely RAW, though, even pre-FAQ. That means the actual impact of the FAQ or the 'fly skill approach' is pretty small, and there's little reason not to use either. As you can see in your Barbarian's case, allowing such things often lead to weaker characters, as the palyer's don't feel a need to build the most optimal thing.