Hi
I'm building a level 12 Gathlain Bard with "Dawnflower Dervish" archetype, which uses "Flame Blade" spell in melee.
A 3-foot-long, blazing beam of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand. You wield this blade-like beam as if it were a scimitar. Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks. The blade deals 1d8 points of fire damage + 1 point per two caster levels (maximum +10). Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage. A flame blade can ignite combustible materials such as parchment, straw, dry sticks, and cloth.
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Planning on using "Empower Spell" to increase the effectiveness of the blade
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.
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i was wondering if:
1) Bonuses granted by Bardic Performance (Inspire Courage) or buff spells (Good Hopes, for example) should be multiplied by the metamagic effect once they are added to the spell's damage: for example getting +6 due to "Battle dance" would net a +9 to the spell's damage
2) The Charisma added to "Flame Blade" attacks due to "Flame Blade Dervish" feat should be multiplied
When you cast flame blade, you gain a +10 enhancement bonus to your base speed as long as the spell persists, along with a +4 competence bonus on all Acrobatics checks. You add your Charisma modifier to damage rolls with your flame blade, and ignore the first 10 points of fire resistance possessed by a creature you hit with the flame blade for the purposes of determining the damage dealt by the flame blade. Against undead foes, you ignore the first 30 points of fire resistance. Immunity to fire still completely protects against damage from your flame blade.
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For example, with a base spell damage of 1d8+6, it should be calculated as (rounded where needed):
1) (1d8+6+charisma+inspire_courage)*1.5
2) ((1d8+6)*1.5 )+charisma+inspire_courage
3) ((1d8+6+charisma)*1.5)+inspire_courage
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P.s: i already assumed the (1d8+(CL/2)) gets multiplied anyway due to the FAQ:
Empower Spell: If I use Empower Spell on a spell that has a die roll with a numerical bonus (such as cure moderate wounds), does the feat affect the numerical bonus?
Yes. For example, if you empower cure moderate wounds, the +50% from the feat applies to the 2d8 and to the level-based bonus.
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I'm under the impression that only the dice are affected, not the bonuses.
All variable, numeric effects...The comma does not negate the variable part. If an effect is not variable, it is not affected, even if it is numeric effect.
The FAQ says the opposite.
The question is if only the spell is affected or the spell and the external increases.My initial interpretation was 1), but after reading again the metamagic feat, the reply is more complicated.
This is how I think it works:
We should look at what each bonus does:
Let's start with the metamagic:
"Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls."
So it affects the spell and the modifiers to the spell, but not the modifiers to the weapon damage you do when you use the spell.
a) Inspire Courage, Good Hope, and similar abilities: they add their bonus to the weapon damage rolls, not to the spell. The Flame blade is a weapon, so it applies, but it applies after the spell damage is determined.
They are not multiplied.
b) A sorcerer Orc and Draconic (fire or gold) Bloodlines, and similar abilities: they increase the spell damage, so they are multiplied.ù
c) Flame Blade Dervish: "You add your Charisma modifier to damage rolls with your flame blade". Again, an ability that adds to the weapon damage, not the spell effect.
So, it is not multiplied by Empower spell.
The chances for a reply from one of the developers are around 0, so you (Visandrix ) can look at what other people and I say and speak with your GM. Your GM interpretation is the final answer.
This is how I think it works:We should look at what each bonus does:
Let's start with the metamagic:
"Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls."
So it affects the spell and the modifiers to the spell, but not the modifiers to the weapon damage you do when you use the spell.a) Inspire Courage, Good Hope, and similar abilities: they add their bonus to the weapon damage rolls, not to the spell. The Flame blade is a weapon, so it applies, but it applies after the spell damage is determined.
They are not multiplied.b) A sorcerer Orc and Draconic (fire or gold) Bloodlines, and similar abilities: they increase the spell damage, so they are multiplied.ù
c) Flame Blade Dervish: "You add your Charisma modifier to damage rolls with your flame blade". Again, an ability that adds to the weapon damage, not the spell effect.
So, it is not multiplied by Empower spell.The chances for a reply from one of the developers are around 0, so you (Visandrix ) can look at what other people and I say and speak with your GM. Your GM interpretation is the final answer.
Incorrect. Read the metamagic feat again.
“Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls.”if inspire courage adds a bonus to the dice roll that is affect by empowered spell, then it is multiplied. The charisma bonus with flame blade dervish is a bonus to the damage rolls with flame blade, an empowered flameblade would multiply it.
The variable numeric effect must be from the spell for empowered spell to affect it, but it doesn’t care what the source is for additional bonuses, only that those bonuses are to the affected roll. This means that weapon spells multiply ability modifiers and inspire courage, but spells that add extra dice to a weapon only multiply those extra dice if empowered. This is because the affected roll for a weapon spell is the entire damage roll, but the affected roll for something like sun metal is only the extra fire damage.
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The variable numeric effect must be from the spell for empowered spell to affect it, but it doesn’t care what the source is for additional bonuses, only that those bonuses are to the affected roll.
It is a matter of opinion.
When is applied the Empowered effect? When you cast the spell, and it stays on the spell you did cast.
When are applied Inspire Courage, Good Hope, and Flame Blade Dervish? When the weapon created by the spell is used to attack.
Essentially you create a better weapon with the empowered spell, but the effects that you apply to the weapon aren't affected by the Empower metamagic.
As I read it, the bonuses are those inherent to the spell (like the +1/level of CLW in the FAQ example) and those that your class or abilities apply to the spell, not those applied to something extraneous to the spell, like weapons attacks.
I have to agree with Diego Rossi on this. Things that affect the spell are increased, but bonuses that apply to everything are not. Although I would allow the bonus from Flame Blade4 Dervish to be affected, because the feat states it increases your flameblade damage. Basically, if you can use the bonus with a normal scimitar empowered spell does not affect it. If you can only use it with flameblade (or other appropriate spells) it does.
Diego Rossi & Mysterious Stranger, you are both in homerule territory… RAW it empower spell doesn’t care where the bojus modifiers come from. Your reading might by RAI, but unless you can find a statement from a dev in that regard its purely your opinion. Per RAW you are wrong.
Empower Spell: If I use Empower Spell on a spell that has a die roll with a numerical bonus (such as cure moderate wounds), does the feat affect the numerical bonus?
Yes. For example, if you empower cure moderate wounds, the +50% from the feat applies to the 2d8 and to the level-based bonus.
The FAQ does not address this both the question and answer are talking about bonuses that are part of the spell. In fact the answer specifies that it increases the level based bonus. Nowhere in the FAQ does it mention any other bonuses that are not part of the spell.
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls.
The wording of the feat is that it increases the numeric variables of the empowered spell. To me that suggests it only affects the spell itself not anything else. RAW are not in fact clear on this point.
Empower Spell: If I use Empower Spell on a spell that has a die roll with a numerical bonus (such as cure moderate wounds), does the feat affect the numerical bonus?
Yes. For example, if you empower cure moderate wounds, the +50% from the feat applies to the 2d8 and to the level-based bonus.The FAQ does not address this both the question and answer are talking about bonuses that are part of the spell. In fact the answer specifies that it increases the level based bonus. Nowhere in the FAQ does it mention any other bonuses that are not part of the spell.
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls.
The wording of the feat is that it increases the numeric variables of the empowered spell. To me that suggests it only affects the spell itself not anything else. RAW are not in fact clear on this point.
Stop ignoring this line.
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.
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Stop ignoring this line.
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.
We are not ignoring that line, the problem is that it can be read both ways, and the FAQ text seems to point in the direction of our reading.
As it is improbable to get a Dev reply today, the only possible solution is to search the threads that originated that FAQ and see if there is more information in those.
The FAQ doesn’t point any more in your direction than it does in mine. The FAQ on this literally does nothing. It was a question about something that a people could answer for them selves by actually reading the full feat and not stopping halfway through the first sentence.
Does empowered cure light multiply the CL bonus? Well lets see… is it a bonus to the empowered roll? Yes? Then yes it multiplies it. The answer was literally already in the feat and in no uncertain words. The part people have constantly had issues with is “what exactly is a variable, numeric effect”. If you try to look up any information on the topic of this thread you will find a lot of discussions and arguments about what is and isn’t a variable numeric effect.
Unless you can find a quote from a dev, FAQ, or anything even remotely official that directly supports your claim, the RAW is not on your side. By RAW, if it is a bonus to the empowered roll then empower spell multiplies it.
what they mean is that they read the words "All X,Y, of an empowered spell including Z..." all relate back to "of empowered spell" that mean the variable numeric (dice rolls) and other effects that alter that dice roll but only those written inside 'of an empowered spell', then they do what ever the feat does.
how you read it is setting aside the first part from the latter.
More specifically the of is being ignored. If it said “All variable, numeric effects to an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls”, that would make it clear that it would include any bonuses including those from external sources. The word of can be interpreted as being part of the spell, which is what we are saying.
The example in the FAQ uses the level-based bonus. The level-based bonus is mentioned in the description of the spell. That makes the spell the source of the level-based bonus.
@Chell Raighn I can understand your reading of the feat but disagree with it. RAW is not clear on this point so as Diego Rossi states no developer is going to respond with a clarification, nor is the FAQ going to be clarified. This means it is going to be up to the GM to determine what is RAW in their campaigns.
@Chell, Another way to look at is would say a scimitar Fighter who dipped 3 levels into druid because they *really wanted* a touch to hit without burning +4 special abilities to get a worse version in brilliant weapon. Should their weapon training, weapon specialization, etc. also apply to the empower effect even though they have nothing to do with the power of the scimitar itself but in the wielder's skill with it?
I'm sticking to the CRB FAQ c2011 & metamagic rules. If you want to go beyond that - that's your home game.
The whole disagreement is about what the meaning of the FAQ is. Saying you are sticking to does not really mean anything.
More specifically the of is being ignored. If it said “All variable, numeric effects to an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls”, that would make it clear that it would include any bonuses including those from external sources. The word of can be interpreted as being part of the spell, which is what we are saying.
No. I am in no way shape or form replacing the word “of” with “to” or ignoring the meaning of that word. It is 100% clear that the variable numeric effect must be from the spell, but that is the ONLY thing that must be from the spell. Do note, it doesn't say “including bonuses of that roll” it says “including bonuses to that roll”. Bonuses is also plural, implying there can be multiple.
@Chell Raighn I can understand your reading of the feat but disagree with it. RAW is not clear on this point so as Diego Rossi states no developer is going to respond with a clarification, nor is the FAQ going to be clarified. This means it is going to be up to the GM to determine what is RAW in their campaigns.
Except ya’ll aren’t arguing RAW. Ya’ll are arguing a possible RAI, but without and dev input it’s nothing more than your opinions on what the RAI is. I am arguing hard RAW. By RAW it does not matter where the bonus comes from. The RAW states in black and white “including bonuses to that roll”. Inspire courage is a bonus to weapon attack and damage rolls. Flame blade is a weapon spell and benefits from inspire courage. Because inspire courage grants a bonus to the damage roll of flame blade an empowered flame blade will multiply that bonus by RAW. Is this RAI? I don’t know, maybe not, but it is RAW.
This is not an interpretation, it is exactly what it says to do. Your reading is an interpretation. To get your result, restrictions that do not exist in the wording of the feat are added. To get my result you apply the feat exactly as it is written, no additions, no subtractions, no replacements… just the exact wording as written.
@Chell, Another way to look at is would say a scimitar Fighter who dipped 3 levels into druid because they *really wanted* a touch to hit without burning +4 special abilities to get a worse version in brilliant weapon. Should their weapon training, weapon specialization, etc. also apply to the empower effect even though they have nothing to do with the power of the scimitar itself but in the wielder's skill with it?
If they are using an empowered flame blade, then yes. Weapon training, weapon specialization, etc are bonuses too the roll and are RAW affected by empowered spell metamagic. Its no different than a magus using weapon specialization [ray] and casting an empowered scorching ray. The bonus from weapon specialization would be multiplied by 1.5 as well.
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RAW:
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls.
We agree that it affects the numeric effect of an empowered spell.
But we totally disagree with "bonuses to those dice rolls" including the bonuses to weapon damage. The bonus from Inspire Courage and so on explicitly states it is a bonus to weapon damage.
A bonus to weapon damage isn't a bonus to the numeric effects of an empowered spell. The bonus must be to those dice rolls, not to other things.
You are purposely discounting "those" and calling it RAW.
it says “including bonuses to that roll”. Bonuses is also plural, implying there can be multiple.
This isn't a meaningful argument, because if it said "including bonus to that rule" we would question whether the writer was a native English speaker. In this context "bonuses" could be intended to mean the singular. eg, if the spell provides a bonus, it gets multiplied as well. Whether or not that was the intent... who knows.
I also don't think it is a issue with Mysterious Stranger and Diego Rossi's argument anyway, as they would allow a sorcerer bloodline to increase it along with the caster level increasing it.
The question is, does the bonus apply directly to the spell, or indirectly because it is an attack with a weapon. And which ones get empowered.
Question for you: If I qualify for sneak attack damage, does my sneak attack damage get multiplied by 50% on an empowered flame blade?
Question for you: If I qualify for sneak attack damage, does my sneak attack damage get multiplied by 50% on an empowered flame blade?
Sneak attack is NOT a bonus yo any roll. Sneak attack is explicitly extra damage and its own separate roll from the damage it is attacked to. So no, sneak attack would not be multiplied. Nice try though.
the only sneak attack that might be effected is if you empower the spell that grant sneak attack dice (i think it was sense vitals or something?)
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To sum it up:
- spells that deal damage as weapons benefit from effects that increase weapon damage and effects that increase spell damage;
- if an effect says that it increases the spell damage and its bonuses, the weapon damage bonuses are increased?
Some people, like me, think that "the spell damage" refers only to the spell damage, others think that "its bonuses" include the weapon damage bonuses.
The Empower feat can be read both ways, the FAQ can be read both ways.
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the only sneak attack that might be effected is if you empower the spell that grant sneak attack dice (i think it was sense vitals or something?)
Don't think so, the damage from sense vitals isn't a "variable, numeric effect". The effect is that you get sneak attack damage, at the rate of one dice, plus one dice every 3 levels beyond the third.
What you roll on the dies from the sneak attack is a numeric effect, but they are not part of the effect of the spell.
Nice try though.
It wasn't a gotcha question. I just wanted to be clear where/if you put the limit on it. I agree SA should not be multiplied. SA is a bonus to damage though in all but name. eg, it isn't specifically called a bonus to damage, but in practicality functions like one. The RAW of course can at times be picky about the exact wording/definitions used.
As Diego has pointed out, there are two ways the RAW can be read on this one. Neither if clear from the actual words which is correct, or what the RAI is. GMs will have to decide for themselves which way they want it to work based on the little context we have.
Ok for my point of view empower spell alter the spell so the flame blade pass from 1d8 +1/2lvl to 1d8+1d4+1.5/2lvl
Inspírate, good hope and similar bonus are moral bonus this mean that affect the creature not the spell, of course you added in the final damage but not gain the effects of empower spell
The same go to flame blade dervish it's an enhancement that affect the creature, do not alter the spell so is added to the final damage not the spell
Since the flame blade take the shape of a scimitar but is a spell at the same time you can use weapon focus (scimitar or touch attack) and weapon specialization (scimitar)
Note you don't multiple by 1.5 the variable because is not a static number so you use the dice that represents it's half unless the number of dice is more than one like fireball that is up to 10d6 in which you will add 5 more d6
Note you don't multiple by 1.5 the variable because is not a static number so you use the dice that represents it's half unless the number of dice is more than one like fireball that is up to 10d6 in which you will add 5 more d6
This is not correct. For a 10th level caster casting empowered fireball you do not add 5 more dice, getting 15d6. You still get 10d6 and then multiple the result by 1.5. If this were true, how many extra dice would a 9th level caster get? You cannot roll an extra 4.5 dice.
The d6 roll is a "...variable, numeric effects...". The number of d6s is not variable (for a given caster level). It is the variable numbers (and bonuses to those numbers) that get multiplied. The static non-variable non-bonuses do not get multiplied.
A level 9 will roll 4d6+1d3 of course
As your second line yes the d6 is a variable, the metamagic alter the spell not the spell results this mean that the number of a d6 is 1-6 (1,2,3,4,5,or 6)the metamagic do not going to activate when the results is done it's always activate before the roll is done
In addition if I apply a maximize empower spell in a fire blade the effects of each metamagic count separate this mean it will do 8+1d4 +1.5/2 lvl (rounded down), in the case of fireball lvl 10 it will do 60+5d6 in the case of a caster lvl 9, will do 54+4d6+1d3
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The d6s aren't a variable, the value is fixed. "your level is X, you get X dice". It doesn't change between a Fireball and another. It changes when your level changes.
The variable is what you roll on d6s.
Sadly, the other uses of the term "variable" in the CRB aren't related to this discussion, they treat the values determined by the caster class level as a variable, but Empoveryng that variable will step on the toes of other metamagic feats.
Empowered spell does NOT add dice. It multiplies the result of the dice rolled and any modifier applied to that roll by 1.5… Intensify Spell adds dice rolls. Also this is Pathfinder NOT dnd 3.5, do NOT apply Sages FAQ to empower, adding Xd3 when you normally roll Xd6 is from that and does not apply here.
The d6s aren't a variable, the value is fixed. "your level is X, you get X dice". It doesn't change between a Fireball and another. It changes when your level changes.
The variable is what you roll on d6s.
Sadly, the other uses of the term "variable" in the CRB aren't related to this discussion, they treat the values determined by the caster class level as a variable, but Empoveryng that variable will step on the toes of other metamagic feats.
I don't think that your lvl is a variable is more like increase of the variable of the dice this means for my point of view that a fireball lvl 5 is going to be 5d6 this mean that it will be a number between 5 to 30 and a lvl 10 fireball will be 10d6 this mean a number between 10 to 60
Empowered spell does NOT add dice. It multiplies the result of the dice rolled and any modifier applied to that roll by 1.5… Intensify Spell adds dice rolls. Also this is Pathfinder NOT dnd 3.5, do NOT apply Sages FAQ to empower, adding Xd3 when you normally roll Xd6 is from that and does not apply here.
Yes it does because most of the rules (almost all) are based in d&d if you compare between the two they're identical
What change are some extra rules and the game lore for the rest are the same
Empowered spell does NOT add dice. It multiplies the result of the dice rolled and any modifier applied to that roll by 1.5… Intensify Spell adds dice rolls. Also this is Pathfinder NOT dnd 3.5, do NOT apply Sages FAQ to empower, adding Xd3 when you normally roll Xd6 is from that and does not apply here.
In addition intensified spell let you increase the caster lvl of spell to 5 more lvl as long you have the lvl to used but only affect damaging spell this is why empower spell it better because is used in all spell whit a variable, for example if I use a empowered cure critical wound lvl 10 it will heal 6d8 +15 instead of 4d8+10
The other different between the two metamagic is that empower use 2 slots higher and intensified use 1 slot higher
Yes it does because most of the rules (almost all) are based in d&d if you compare between the two they're identical
Based on, yes. Equivalent to, no. FAQs from D&D 3.5 did not get carried over to Pathfinder except in cases where the Pathfinder design team explicitly added those to the rules (or made their own FAQs).
A level 9 will roll 4d6+1d3 of course...
Jason Buhlman, lead designer for Pathfinder disagrees with you. Note that in his example he is responding to it is a ray of enfeeblement for 1d6 + level. He does not say a empowered RoE does 1d6 + 1d3 - it does 1d6 * 1.5. Note also, being a very old post (2009) the team had not yet ruled that the bonuses to a spell are also empowered. So the +5 should have been included in the 1.5 calculation based on later FAQs for empower spell.
Also here is a quote from James Jacobs on the subject. But, James Jacob, while being creative director is not on the rules team. So you could merely take this as opinion, though opinion that does match what the rules lead says... so take that as you may.
Further, half a die also does not have the same average damage. eg, the average roll on a single d6 is 3.5. The average on a d3 is 2. The average of 2 on a d3 is not half the average of 3.5 on a d6.
Well in the end there is no simple answer to this metamagic because the people of Pathfinder give they interpretation of the metamagic of d&d based in they logic for a game more dinamic and reduce the amount of time of the play, the only one who have the real answer to the metamagic is the one who designed
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Well in the end there is no simple answer to this metamagic because the people of Pathfinder give they interpretation of the metamagic of d&d based in they logic for a game more dinamic and reduce the amount of time of the play, the only one who have the real answer to the metamagic is the one who designed
No. What the developers of Pathfinder did say is the real rule for Pathfinder.
The Calcio Fiorentino was the predecessor of football, but we don't use its rules for football.
Well in the end there is no simple answer to this metamagic because the people of Pathfinder give they interpretation of the metamagic of d&d based in they logic for a game more dinamic and reduce the amount of time of the play, the only one who have the real answer to the metamagic is the one who designed
Paizo took the 3.5 ruleset and copied many rules over word for word. They also deliberately changed quite a few rules to work differently. Are you suggesting that for the rules they deliberately changed we can't be certain how they actually work because those changes are simply an "interpretation of the [rules] of d&d"?
Are you suggesting the lead designer does not know how the game he designed works? Being a derivative work isn't relevant to this question. If they intentionally changed something, then it works as stated in the intentional change.
Well in the end there is no simple answer to this metamagic because the people of Pathfinder give they interpretation of the metamagic of d&d based in they logic for a game more dinamic and reduce the amount of time of the play, the only one who have the real answer to the metamagic is the one who designedPaizo took the 3.5 ruleset and copied many rules over word for word. They also deliberately changed quite a few rules to work differently. Are you suggesting that for the rules they deliberately changed we can't be certain how they actually work because those changes are simply an "interpretation of the [rules] of d&d"?
Are you suggesting the lead designer does not know how the game he designed works? Being a derivative work isn't relevant to this question. If they intentionally changed something, then it works as stated in the intentional change.
Ok first of all I concur with Diego what Pathfinder say for they game is the real rule for they game no problem whit that.
But they copy paste a feat and express no official explanation of the change so tell how did i or more people who plays 3.5 since the 90' will know this change at least d&d explained in a official book or page (don't really remember i where I reader)
You say that d6 average is 3.5 that true. But using the explanation give by d&d you can transform that decimal into a integers by adding D3 which average is 1.5 giving you an average of 5, the only problem is that you increase the minimum damage to 2. Now for the proposes of Pathfinder to multiply the result by 1.5 generate a problem whit odds number an that is that all odd number will give you a 0.5 so which one will your GM take rounded up or rounded down.
And for last i writing my opinion as an old gamer, reduce the violence in the expression of the writing please;)
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Rounding: Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3.
D&D 3rd edition was printed in the year 2000, it is hard to have played it in the '90.
Paizo did a Conversion guide to update the characters and games from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
Yeah sry my mistake i play this game since second edition and most of the time (whit work and family) forget when I started to play an edition. And thank for the book i never seen it in my country and dint know that exists