I'm puzzled by the Illusion tag on the Mistform Elixir. First, it's no magical item, which is in contradiction with the tag: "Effects and magic items with this trait are associated with the illusion school of magic, typically involving false sensory stimuli."
Similarly when speaking about magical schools: "All spells, all magic items, and most other magical effects fall into one of the eight schools of magic. These schools broadly define what the magic is capable of. Every spell has the trait corresponding to its school. Some spellcasters, like specialist wizards, have particular acumen with a certain school of magic."
So it's a school of magic, what does it do on an Elixir? On top of it, the description of Mistform Elixir doesn't seem "illusory": it's an actual mist that raise from your skin.
Is it an error?
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Is there an actual problem? It looks like it falls under the Effects part of "Effects and magic items". I suppose it does raise questions about detect magic. Also, there are Elixirs with the Necromancy trait so we either have three errors or Elixirs are allowed to be associated with a school of magic. It does seem weird that such a small percentage of Elixirs are associated with a school.
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Invisibility is an illusion and you can't disbelieve it. You can only disbelieve if the spell or effect says you can.
I would say Mistform falls under that category, where it makes you look misty but doesn't actually make your body produce mist or anything.
Why does it work as a non-magical alchemical item? I dunno, magic maybe.
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I'd assume it's there to allow true seeing to bypass it. Another one of those things that's there just for gameplay reasons.
I understand what they try to do with the tag system, but it's things like this that bother me.
Alchemical is supposed to be different from magic, and Illusion refers to magic.
If ultimately they wanted something like True Seeing to see through it, I feel like this is one of the places where you should just write that out. Because adding the illusion tag has other implications that don't fit with the rest of the item.
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A creature with this trait is a member of the gnome ancestry. Gnomes are small people skilled at magic who seek out new experiences and usually have low-light vision. An ability with this trait can be used or selected only by gnomes. A weapon with this trait is created and used by gnomes.
Not everything in a trait is applicable to everything that has that trait.
A gnome character doesn't follow the rule about being created and used by gnomes because they are not a weapon.
A gnome weapon doesn't follow the rule about only being used or selected by gnomes because it isn't a feat.
And of course a gnome feat is not a small person skilled at magic.
So if the Illusion trait is put onto something that is not a magical item or effect, that is fine. The rules for magical items and effects wouldn't apply to it, but the trait itself would still be able to be referenced.
There is also the Bard feat All in my Head. It also doesn't appear to be magical in nature, but has the Illusion trait.
I understand what they try to do with the tag system, but it's things like this that bother me.
Alchemical is supposed to be different from magic, and Illusion refers to magic.
If ultimately they wanted something like True Seeing to see through it, I feel like this is one of the places where you should just write that out. Because adding the illusion tag has other implications that don't fit with the rest of the item.
Because of the Illusion Trait this particular pice of alchemy becomes magical.
Which is annoying but as you say sometimes significant.
Because of the Illusion Trait this particular pice of alchemy becomes magical.
Why?
The Magical trait means that something is magical. And there are the four magical tradition traits Arcane, Primal, Occult, and Divine that also indicate that the thing being defined is magical.
But the Illusion trait doesn't say that.
If the item/spell/effect/creature/... is an effect or magic item, then the trait says that it is associated with the illusion school of magic. But having the trait doesn't actually say that the Mistform Elixir is magical.
But the Illusion trait doesn't say that.
If the item/spell/effect/creature/... is an effect or magic item, then the trait says that it is associated with the illusion school of magic. But having the trait doesn't actually say that the Mistform Elixir is magical.
The magical trait explicitly includes the 4 traditions. The schools aren't mentioned there.
However the schools are defined twice in the spells rules and also under wizard as schools of magic, and never as anything else.I'm not sure you can untie them.
It is not a broad problem as only a handful of alchemical items have a magic school trait - most have effect traits.
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I think we have a little contradiction here. But IMO I agree with breithauptclan these itens aren't magical.
The contradiction is here:
Effects and magic items with this trait are associated with the illusion school of magic, typically involving false sensory stimuli.
vs
Alchemical items are powered by reactions of alchemical reagents. Alchemical items aren’t magical and don’t radiate a magical aura.
IMO I think that Illusion isn't clear enough to say that something with this trait must have to be magical. "Associated with the illusion school of magic" isn't enough for me to declare that's necessary a magical item but the Alchemical is very clear to say that the item aren't magical its practically forbidding any alchemical item to be magical.
So IMO if Alchemical trait is involved the thing isn't magical anymore unless something more specific and clear says that's an exception.
So IMO if Alchemical trait is involved the thing isn't magical anymore unless something more specific and clear says that's an exception.
Like a particular trait on a handful of items, as opposed to the general category of alchemical items?
Specific versus general is clear enough to me here.Alchemical means aren't magical not can't be magical.
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Magic school traits aren't inherently magical.
Also, there's only two elixirs with a magic school trait, Mistform Elixirs (Illusion) and the Sun Orchid Elixir (Necromancy).
There are a few poisons that have the Necromancy trait, but also the Divine trait (which makes them magical), and one Bottled Monstrosity which does the same.
So yes, alchemical items can be magical, but what makes them magical is either the Magical trait, or one of the four tradition traits.
Magic school traits aren't inherently magical.
That is a bit of a stretch considering they are defined only as magical schools. It certainly defies common sense and natural language.
Even you talk about them using the word magical. The traits don't have any meaning outside the context of magic.
Correct the rules don't explicitly require the magical property to be inherited here. But they don't deny it either. There is plenty of soft textual support for them being magical.
Yes inheritance is a principle I've argued in other places like golem immunities and strike with magical weapons. But only because the rules forced that logic (or accept some really invulnerable golems)
Also, there's only two elixirs with a magic school trait, Mistform Elixirs (Illusion) and the Sun Orchid Elixir (Necromancy).
There are a few poisons that have the Necromancy trait, but also the Divine trait (which makes them magical), and one Bottled Monstrosity which does the same.
So yes, alchemical items can be magical, but what makes them magical is either the Magical trait, or one of the four tradition traits.
I think the right approach is that these few items should just get the tradition traits added via errata. Or the school traits dropped.
Is there an actual problem?
I've let the discussion go and you can see that, yes, it seems there is a problem.
Whatever the intent, it feels really weird.A non magical illusion is something I fail to grasp. A magical Alchemical Item is something very weird due to its interaction with some spells and effects. That's why the Divine poisons have a paragraph of text to explain them: "Poisons with the divine trait are infused with an element of divine power, elevating them to a magical state beyond what alchemy could normally achieve. These deadly concoctions provide magical side effects in addition to their usual debilitating properties. Normally crafted by followers of deities of poisons like Norgorber and Ydersius, these poisons are magic items. Their effects can't be dispelled by dispel magic."
Read the paragraph, it's just there to say: Yes, these items are magical and this is so much incredible that we felt we needed a box of text to state it clearly.
So I don't understand the intent with the Illusion tag on Mistform Elixir. Is it an error and it should be removed (my interpretation)? Or is it really a magical item but there should be an extra tag at least and preferably a bit of text to explain it?
So IMO if Alchemical trait is involved the thing isn't magical anymore unless something more specific and clear says that's an exception.Like a particular trait on a handful of items, as opposed to the general category of alchemical items?
Specific versus general is clear enough to me here.
Alchemical means aren't magical not can't be magical.
Why do you think that Illusion trait is a more specific rule than Alchemical trait?
Both are traits in the same item. Both categorize the item. The difference is that Illusion isn't clear about the item to be magical (there's no magical nor tradition trait associated neighter something in the trait description clearing saying "something with this trait is magical") while Alchemical put clear that things with this trait are magical.IMO both traits are in same grade of specific/general rules to one of them to be more specific and override the other. To be override here this needed to be in item description what's isn't the case.
Is there an actual problem?I've let the discussion go and you can see that, yes, it seems there is a problem.
Whatever the intent, it feels really weird.A non magical illusion is something I fail to grasp. A magical Alchemical Item is something very weird due to its interaction with some spells and effects. That's why the Divine poisons have a paragraph of text to explain them: "Poisons with the divine trait are infused with an element of divine power, elevating them to a magical state beyond what alchemy could normally achieve. These deadly concoctions provide magical side effects in addition to their usual debilitating properties. Normally crafted by followers of deities of poisons like Norgorber and Ydersius, these poisons are magic items. Their effects can't be dispelled by dispel magic."
Read the paragraph, it's just there to say: Yes, these items are magical and this is so much incredible that we felt we needed a box of text to state it clearly.So I don't understand the intent with the Illusion tag on Mistform Elixir. Is it an error and it should be removed (my interpretation)? Or is it really a magical item but there should be an extra tag at least and preferably a bit of text to explain it?
So it currently has effect. The illusion trait can even be a mistake, but it interacts with all kinds of abilities that deal with illusions, such as True Seeing. Perhaps this is the intention of the trait, treating the Mistform Elixir as a non-magical illusion, only because the illusion is also a school this leads to this dubious interpretation of whether an item/action/activity with the trait of a school is necessarily magical or not.
Also, answering the "Is there an actual problem?" pointed by ReyalsKanras it can become in some specific cases, such as for superstition barbarians or dispel.
Good. We have established there is a problem. For at least seven people too, good enough for me. I think that problem is "is it Magical" not "is it Illusion".
I do not really know what it means to be Illusion or Necromancy school related without also being Magical. Is there a specific use case for Illusion that functions independently of Magical? To be more specific, I think the Mistform Elixir is explicitly not Magical. Is there a problem with it being an Illusion related non-Magical effect? The question is interesting either way, but assuming it is a typo and adding the Magical trait will absolutely have mechanical changes.
Magical
Source Core Rulebook pg. 633 4.0
Something with the magical trait is imbued with magical energies not tied to a specific tradition of magic. A magical item radiates a magic aura infused with its dominant school of magic.Some items or effects are closely tied to a particular tradition of magic. In these cases, the item has the arcane, divine, occult, or primal trait instead of the magical trait. Any of these traits indicate that the item is magical.
The Mistform Elixir is definitively either a typo or non-Magical.
A non magical illusion is something I fail to grasp.
The screen you are currently looking at is a good example. Everything that you see on here is an illusion. Yet our IRL world doesn't have any actual magic.
So IMO if Alchemical trait is involved the thing isn't magical anymore unless something more specific and clear says that's an exception.Like a particular trait on a handful of items, as opposed to the general category of alchemical items?
Specific versus general is clear enough to me here.
Alchemical means aren't magical not can't be magical.
But even you admit that the traits on Mistform Elixir aren't actually adding the Magical trait or anything that requires the item to be magical.
And no, the location where a trait is defined is not nearly as meaningful as its actual rules text.
Something with the magical trait is imbued with magical energies not tied to a specific tradition of magic. A magical item radiates a magic aura infused with its dominant school of magic.
Some items or effects are closely tied to a particular tradition of magic. In these cases, the item has the arcane, divine, occult, or primal trait instead of the magical trait. Any of these traits indicate that the item is magical.
This magic comes from the arcane tradition, which is built on logic and rationality. Anything with this trait is magical.
These two traits would override the Alchemical trait and make the item be magical.
Effects and magic items with this trait are associated with the illusion school of magic, typically involving false sensory stimuli.
This one doesn't. Especially since for a non-magical item, the trait is effectively empty since it doesn't meet the match category of the first 7 words.
A non magical illusion is something I fail to grasp.The screen you are currently looking at is a good example. Everything that you see on here is an illusion. Yet our IRL world doesn't have any actual magic.
Light is Evocation magic, not Illusion.
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But this |
<------------
Is not actually a crystal construct cat. That is an illusion. It is deceiving your vision into thinking that there is possibly a crystal cat there.
And you are likely voluntarily failing your disbelieve check.
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While there's definitely some awkwardness given the trait description, from a pure mechanical perspective there's nothing inherently broken with the idea of a non-magical illusion.
Again, that's not to say that there isn't any issue because clearly people are having a lot of disagreement here, but in all the talk about adding the magical trait or removing the illusion trait... simply running it as is is a valid option, the item isn't broken or anything.
Effects and magic items with this trait are associated with the illusion school of magic, typically involving false sensory stimuli.This one doesn't.
I find that people are quoting this as proof it is non magical as delicious irony.
I find that people are quoting this as proof it is non magical as delicious irony.Effects and magic items with this trait are associated with the illusion school of magic, typically involving false sensory stimuli.This one doesn't.
It isn't proof that it is non-magical. That isn't what I said.
I am stating that the trait by itself is not proof that it is magical. Which is a very different thing to say.
Magical illusions are magical.
Non-magical effects can still be illusions. The Illusion trait doesn't prevent that.
On the contrary, the wording suggests that there are things that have the trait that are not 'Effects and magic items'. And those things would not necessarily be associated with the illusion school of magic.
On the contrary, the wording suggests that there are things that have the trait that are not 'Effects and magic items'.
Really? Given that Effects are defined by the text Anything you do in the game has an effect
There is a gap there? Because an alchemical item only has an effect and is not an effect? That is pretty narrow.Or is it because of the explicit assumption that items with this trait are magical?
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But this |
<------------Is not actually a crystal construct cat. That is an illusion. It is deceiving your vision into thinking that there is possibly a crystal cat there.
And you are likely voluntarily failing your disbelieve check.
If I follow your reasoning then the drawing of a crystal construct cat is an illusion.
Anyway, I agree that there are visual illusions in our world, the feat Razzle Dazzle is a good example of a non magical illusion. But the description of Mistform Elixir is not one of an illusion. And the fact that Mutagens are Polymorph effects but not Transmutation ones makes me think an Alchemical item is not supposed to be linked to a school of magic (unless there's a specific paragraph to explain it).
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A non magical illusion is something I fail to grasp.The screen you are currently looking at is a good example. Everything that you see on here is an illusion. Yet our IRL world doesn't have any actual magic.
That is heavily dependent on how one defines illusion.
Illusions as we think of them rely on tricking the senses, and I would argue monitors, computer screens, etc don't do that (at least by default). They literally produce light which produces an image. By default there is no illusion, IMO.
The closest we get to illusion is mirages or stage magic. Which uses various methods to trick your senses into thinking something is happening that isn't.
A computer screen is no more an illusion (IMO) than a drawing. Simply the medium and method of creation differ.
Although, I should note computer screens can be made to show illusions.
And in any event, as SuperBidi notes the most egregious problem here is that the description of the elixir talks about creating a mist which should be a transmutation effect not an illusion effect. If this were PF1 it would probably reference obscuring mist spell but they did away with things like that in PF2.
If I follow your reasoning then the drawing of a crystal construct cat is an illusion.But this |
<------------Is not actually a crystal construct cat. That is an illusion. It is deceiving your vision into thinking that there is possibly a crystal cat there.
And you are likely voluntarily failing your disbelieve check.
I believe what he/she is saying here is that there is no crystal cat on your screen. But rather a series of tiny colored pixels that together in their combination of lights, shadows and colors form the illusion of a crystal cat figure. Illusion which we know is not real, not even a real drawing of a crystal cat, but a convenient illusion of a drawing of a crystal cat which we choose not to disbelieve as it is useful to us and provides us with a lot of useful information and this isn't magical.
That's his/her point.
That said...
Anyway, I agree that there are visual illusions in our world, the feat Razzle Dazzle is a good example of a non magical illusion. But the description of Mistform Elixir is not one of an illusion. And the fact that Mutagens are Polymorph effects but not Transmutation ones makes me think an Alchemical item is not supposed to be linked to a school of magic (unless there's a specific paragraph to explain it).
I agree with you at first glance. That's a disparity between what is described in the item and the illusion trait.
However, nothing prevents the emitted fog from actually being an illusory fog, which reflects the light in such a way as to make the vision of the creature's contours diffuse. Which would justify the Illusion and Visual traits.A computer screen is no more an illusion (IMO) than a drawing. Simply the medium and method of creation differ.
You have a point. But screens are considered as optical illusions in the movement part.