I understand that this is a contentious topic, but I don't think we're going to solve it here. I'd appreciate it if we left that debate behind, there's more than enough information here for my GM to make a ruling.
Your GM can make a ruling and should because we all want to play the game. But there isn't enough information here to decide properly as Paizo have never clarified this.
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Your unarmed attack bonus with weapons that don't belong to a weapon group don't get full fighter proficiency.
So that's why taking Martial Artist is suggested for this build.
Ape attacks with Fist. So, you just need to convince your GM that it is the same Fist as the one in the Brawling group.
For all other Animal Shape natural attacks, you are completely right : they do not belong to a weapon group and thus Martial Artist is needed.
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You run into a problem here because the attacks given to you by forms do not disclose a weapon group, so your expertise in brawling doesn't help you. That's why martial artist is useful.Do you mean Weapon Specialization? Yeah I won't get the +3 to damage, I think I'm ok with that. But for proficiency bonuses to hit I don't need the Animal Form to be a particular weapon group since I'm replacing the spell's attack bonuses with my unarmed attack bonuses, and they only care that my fists belong to a weapon group before I Wildshape.
If I decide I need more damage I can look into Martial Artist. I likely won't be looking at this till at least level 6 since I'll obviously be taking the Druid archetype first, but it's good to know what I get out of it.
Squiggit is right. Because the RAW does not say you use your Unarmed attack bonus with your fists when using the natural attacks from Animal form. You're using your Unarmed attack bonus with the natural attacks granted by the spell. Since they do not belong to a weapon group, they cannot benefit from the early increased proficiency of the Fighter.
Except maybe the Ape's Fist attack.
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What level will you reach in the end ? Superbidi (a poster on the forums) has a monster of a build that has the highest DPR at very high levels.Level 10. We're playing QUEST FOR THE FROZEN FLAME, so there are also some stipulations about not having much access to metal armour and weapons, that kind of thing .
IIRC it starts with Fighter MC Druid, then Martial Artist to boost your proficiency with all natural attacks, then MC Alchemist for Feral Mutagen.I don't think I need to boost proficiency with unarmed attacks, since I can use the Fighter bonus and fists are part of the Brawling weapon group. I can just use my own unarmed attack bonus in place of the standard bonus granted by Animal Form.
Honestly I don't think I need any more bonuses to attack rolls, I'll already be +4 compared to most martial classes, meaning my 2nd attack with an agile weapon will be at the same bonus as everyone else's primary attack. It's more about what kind of versatility I might be able to get.
I'll check out Suoerbidi though, thanks for the tip =)
A note that extremely high attack bonus makes the Fighter feats that hinge on critical hits far more valuable.
Your unarmed attack bonus with weapons that don't belong to a weapon group don't get full fighter proficiency.
So that's why taking Martial Artist is suggested for this build.
I don't need the Animal Form attacks to get higher proficiency. I'm using my regular unarmed attack bonus with my FIST that I get by choosing the BRAWLING weapon group for my Fighter Weapon Mastery. This was the whole thing about how the Monk would work, it should work the same way with the Fighter.
That's my understanding of everything that was said on the previous page, and also everything else I've read about this.
If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead.
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Your unarmed attack bonus with weapons that don't belong to a weapon group don't get full fighter proficiency.
So that's why taking Martial Artist is suggested for this build.
I don't need the Animal Form attacks to get higher proficiency. I'm using my regular unarmed attack bonus with my FIST that I get by choosing the BRAWLING weapon group for my Fighter Weapon Mastery. This was the whole thing about how the Monk would work, it should work the same way with the Fighter.
That's my understanding of everything that was said on the previous page, and also everything else I've read about this.
If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead.
No they're right. Fighter works different than monk.
As a fighter, you get expert unarmed strikes at level 1. Very nice.
At level 5, you pick a weapon group to become master in. You can't pick "unarmed" because that's not a weapon group itself. What you need is to find a weapon group that includes the unarmed strikes you want to use.
However, the weapons from animal form don't belong to a weapon group.
Now The Raven Black suggests using Ape for Fist. But I don't think that actually works. The first attack given by the ape form might have the same name as the fist attack in the CRB weapons table, but it's clearly not the same thing; it has different traits and different damage types.
So this is where the martial artist archetype comes in, which gives you enhanced proficiency with unarmed strikes, without being bothered by weapon groups.
Now, normally getting all of this working wouldn't be possible, but your campaign uses free archetype. So at levels 2, 4 and 6 you take druid feats, and then at level 6 you also take martial artist using a regular feat. It's only at level 5 that you miss out on the proficiency boost.
No they're right. Fighter works different than monk.
At level 5, you pick a weapon group to become master in. You can't pick "unarmed" because that's not a weapon group itself. What you need is to find a weapon group that includes the unarmed strikes you want to use.
Oh I see. The Monk was Trained/Expert in "Unarmed Attacks", while the Fighter is only Expert/Master in "Fists". I'd still be an Expert at 5 but I wouldn't get Master proficiency.
Gah, that's a super annoying hoop to jump through, but I guess I have to see which level 4/6 Fighter feat I want to miss to take Martial Artist. I guess it's not a terrible hoop, but still ...
Cool thanks for clarifying. And yeah, only a problem at level 5.
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Oh, although one advantage I'm seeing is that I don't have to pick Brawling as my Fighter Weapon Specialization. Martial Artist seems to just keep my "Unarmed Attacks" trucking with whatever weapon group I pick.
OK, 30 seconds later and I'm already less annoyed. Thanks guys.
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Yeah so you actually get to think about what other weapon group to pick. Maybe bows, in case you run into something that can't be fought in melee (dragon with ridiculous fly speed that likes hit and run) or shouldn't be fought in melee (thing that does damage to you every time you hit it).
Also, you don't get locked into a single animal. If you need to fight underwater, shark will do.
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Yeah so you actually get to think about what other weapon group to pick. Maybe bows, in case you run into something that can't be fought in melee (dragon with ridiculous fly speed that likes hit and run) or shouldn't be fought in melee (thing that does damage to you every time you hit it).
Also, you don't get locked into a single animal. If you need to fight underwater, shark will do.
Yes. Martial Artist dedication allows you to enjoy the full diversity of Animal Shapes AND to increase your proficiency in any weapon group for your Fighter.
I'm probably going to use THIS PICTURE . I currently have her wielding an Earthbreaker, she has an Arcane Tattoo as an Ancestry feat, and I'm probably gonna give her tattoo crafting as her first skill feat. Probably not the most optimised, but I'll likely make Hammers her weapon specialization for thematic reasons, someone else fan deal with the ranged attacks .
Also she won't be a smith, I just had to find a picture with leather armour that looked the part, and it's sometimes difficult to find female character art that isn't hyper-sexualised. This picture ticks all the boxes and looks pretty cool. Enough for me to change my build around it slightly.
But who knows, that decision is likely months away, anything could happen between now and then ... hopefully less death this time =P
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At level 5, you pick a weapon group to become master in. You can't pick "unarmed" because that's not a weapon group itself. What you need is to find a weapon group that includes the unarmed strikes you want to use.
However, the weapons from animal form don't belong to a weapon groupI still don't understand how this is supposed to work and how this is relevant. 'If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead.' Why for a wizard you just take your number with your 'Fist' attack and compare it with the number from the spell, and for a fighter you can't just take the same number for the same attack and compare? Yes, it's bigger for a fighter and can be different for different fighters, so what?
The "problem" is that yes, at level 1 fighters start at Expert in unarmed strikes, but they only go up to Master in unarmed strikes at level 13 (the "weapon legend" ability).
At level 5, fighters can pick a weapon group to become Master in, but unarmed strikes aren't a weapon group. So your head start that you had for getting that extra bonus from wildshape (compared to monk, barbarian etc.) ends then, unless you come up with a trick.
And that trick is the martial artist dedication. Because that one doesn't worry about weapon groups, just what your best proficiency in any weapon is:
Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert or greater proficiency in certain weapons, you also gain that proficiency rank in all unarmed attacks.
So as a fighter at level 5 you choose some weapon group to become master in, and martial artist makes that also apply to unarmed strikes. And then you can use the better bonus for your wildshape.
Some unarmed strikes are in the brawling weapon group. However, the unarmed strikes from animal form etc. don't have that.
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I still don't understand how this is supposed to work and how this is relevant. 'If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead.' Why for a wizard you just take your number with your 'Fist' attack and compare it with the number from the spell, and for a fighter you can't just take the same number for the same attack and compare? Yes, it's bigger for a fighter and can be different for different fighters, so what?
I didn't see the difference either at first.
If you look at a Monk, they're trained with "unarmed attacks". Then at level 5 they become an expert in "unarmed attacks".
If you look at the Fighter, they're expert in "unarmed attacks". Then at level 5 they can become a master in 1 weapon group. The brawling weapon group includes fist, which happens to be a type of unarmed attack, but it doesn't give you master proficiency in all unarmed attacks. The relevant quote from Animal Form is: If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead. It doesn't say if ANY unarmed attack bonus, it's referring go your training level with "unarmed attacks", which at this level is expert.
So the fix is to take MARTIAL ARTIST dedication at level 6 . Martial Artist says: Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert or greater proficiency in certain weapons, you also gain that proficiency rank in all unarmed attacks. Because this applies to all "unarmed attacks" we can use it for Animal Form.
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Something you might wanna check with your GM, because Free Archetype isn't 100% clear on this;
When you take an archetype you can't take another archetype until you take three feats in the first. Does this limit apply when you take one archetype from FA and another from regular class feats?
Because if your GM decides it doesn't (which is a fairly common ruling), then you don't necessarily need to spend your level 6 feat on it, you could also use a level 2 or 4 feat for it.
That's a bit more flexible, although fighters actually get some of their really good feats at low level. Feats like Snagging Strike and Combat Grab remain useful at all levels. Later levels tend to focus more on feats for special situation.
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Your Fist attack bonus is higher (because Fist belongs to the Brawling weapon group). Not your unarmed attack bonus.
For example, if you are a Kitsune with Foxfire, being Master in the Brawling weapon group will not make you Master with your Foxfire unarmed attacks because they belong to the Sling weapon group and not the Brawling one.
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...'If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead.'...... The relevant quote from Animal Form is: If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead. It doesn't say if ANY unarmed attack bonus, it's referring go your training level with "unarmed attacks", which at this level is expert.... And I don't see that. It's a ruling, not a rule. Your 'unarmed attack bonus' definitely can be just your 'fist attack bonus'. And it's an obvious default even. Also, nothing at all mentions or uses your training level.
We need more clear rules.
Fist is an unarmed strike; not all unarmed strikes are fists.
Animal form asks about your unarmed strike bonus, not your unarmed strike bonus with a specific unarmed strike that you can't even use while shapeshifted.
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Pathbuilder is a third party app, that really has no bearing on how the rules work. It makes choices on how to present things.
The character sheet again isn't the rules, it's just a place to take notes. The default character sheet doesn't even have room to record your unarmed proficiency, but each class tells you which unarmed proficiency you get. Most of the pregens don't list any unarmed attacks, that doesn't mean they couldn't use their fists, it's just that they didn't fit them into the layout.
The rules themselves ask for your unarmed attack bonus, in the spell (animal form, and the other battle form spells). Not for your fist attack bonus.
So clearly your unarmed attack bonus exists. How do you calculate it? Easily, you know exactly how. Just follow the usual rules on page 278 for calculating an attack bonus. You take your proficiency and add ability score and other modifiers (item, status, circumstance). And it's not the "worst" bonus. It's just your generic bonus. You're not using the normal fist attack for an animal form attack, so any particular benefits or downsides it has aren't relevant.
Only general 'unarmed attack bonus' does not even exist on your charsheet. Or in the Pathbuilder.
As Ascalaphus said, Pathbuilder is not an official Paizo product, so it's totally irrelevant.
What is an official Paizo product is the archivesofnethys website ...
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
Expert in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in unarmed attacks
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Because obvious is not an absolute. Consider that several posters see it one way and AFAICT only you see it your way.
I'm on his side.
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Because obvious is not an absolute. Consider that several posters see it one way and AFAICT only you see it your way.I'm on his side.
I'm not, but I see the argument.
Once again I feel like the argunents have been presented. If people aren't convinced then they're not going to be, and as has been said it's up to our GMs to decide .
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Yep we have done this argument dozens of times. The rules are not precise. The terms are vague and inconsistently used. Which means they aren't obvious despite what some people say. The issue remains unresolved.
If your char is a human Brawling group fighter, their Fist is their unarmed attack bonus, there's literally nothing else.
I mean, not really? Your Fist is your Fist. That's all it is.
Using your proficiency with Fists (a specific attack) to apply to a completely unrelated attack makes as much sense as claiming that a fighter who picked 'swords' can use the same proficiency with a battle axe and a long sword because they're both martial weapons.
This is just wishful thinking.
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If your char is a human Brawling group fighter, their Fist is their unarmed attack bonus, there's literally nothing else.I mean, not really? Your Fist is your Fist. That's all it is.
That is silly. Your Fist is a specific attack, but it is also a stand in for every other type of other unspecified unarmed attack you might make. Clearly fist or kick or slam can be used with Dex if you want. There is no rule problem there.
Using your proficiency with Fists (a specific attack) to apply to a completely unrelated attack makes as much sense as claiming that a fighter who picked 'swords' can use the same proficiency with a battle axe and a long sword because they're both martial weapons.
The rule for Battle Forms is in each spell, There are a lot of differences so I'll quote a few.
Animal Form says If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead.
Monstrosity Form says If your unarmed attack modifier is higher, you can use it instead.. So does something more recent like Ooze Form
The Druid Wild Order Spell says When you choose to use your own attack modifier while polymorphed instead of the form's default attack modifier
Angel Form says If your attack modifier is higher for the given unarmed attack or weapon, you can use it instead.
Which is frustrating as the term attack modifier and attack bonus are not cleanly defined. The best definition we have is this one:
Core Rulebook pg. 278 4.0
Melee attack modifier = Strength modifier (or optionally Dexterity for a finesse weapon) + proficiency bonus + other bonuses + penalties
A few specific spells like Elemental Form and Angel form call out Strength and Dexterity separately for different form attacks.
We have a video clarification from Mark Seifter now. Basically he says that you are working out the full attack modifier of the Druid before they change and includes the item bonus to attack from things like hand wraps.
The problem with this is that to work out this equation you need to know the details of the attack. Because the bonuses depend on the details. You are talking about specific items and specific attacks. We know it is the Druid's bonuses, not the polymorphed form bonuses. How do I know what bonuses to use with a Tail attack if I don't have a tail as a Druid? Yet they do parallel up particular attacks in Angel and Elemental with Str and Dex.
There is a logical disconnect here that Paizo devs have never cleared up. They are trying to have it both ways.
The other point in the unarned attack modifier formula is TGTBT tells us we shouldn't be double dipping on bonus types. TBTBT tells use we need to include every bonus type exactly once. The rules aren't explicit here. We are just left to ourselves. We know the circumstance bonus, status bonus and penalties can be added when using the battle forms so adding them into the unarmed attack modifier would be wrong.
Personally I am disappointed in Paizo for writing some half baked rules.
This is just wishful thinking.
You are just being dismissive. Which is annoying as there are a couple of interpretations here and I don't think that Paizo knows themselves.
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There's nothing particularly half baked here. You pointed to the formula in your own post, I'm unclear why you think that's not good enough.
Like... you just calculate your attack modifier, spelled out right there, with specified caveats, and you're done.
You don't apply bonuses that would only apply to specific weapons or attacks, unless the thing you're calculating fits into that specific group... because why would you? +1 to attacks with slings doesn't matter if you aren't hitting someone with a sling and I'm genuinely confused as to why some people think it would. There's no logical trap or trickery here.
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It's just that they see things differently (almost literally, as in perceive them differently), which leads to a different understanding.
I have often seen this due to cultural differences, but it appears here that it can happen on an individual level. Which I find rather fascinating.
I would need to dig deeper into Gortle's references to better understand their reasoning. Not sure I have the time to do this these days alas.
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I'm unclear why you think that's not good enough.
Because the terms attack modifier and bonus are used interchangeable for the total of the equation and for specific element on the right hand side.
As a definition it is a spongy mess.
Somewhere in the rules they say that modifiers are just like bonuses but they can be negative.
Like... you just calculate your attack modifier, spelled out right there, with specified caveats, and you're done.
But some of those bonuses clearly don't apply. The bonuses are item/ circumstance/ status and other. They don't say which ones to use. You have to reason it out. I've seen lots of people do really different things. Half the community was arguing item bonuses didn't apply before we got the clarification from Mark.
You don't apply bonuses that would only apply to specific weapons or attacks, unless the thing you're calculating fits into that specific group... because why would you? +1 to attacks with slings doesn't matter if you aren't hitting someone with a sling and I'm genuinely confused as to why some people think it would. There's no logical trap or trickery here.
What about the +2 status bonus from wild shape. Or the circumstance bonus from Aid. They apply to everything. What about the item bonus from a Berserkers Cloak?
Aside from which you are making up the whole specific attack thing. The generic unarmed attack modifier is not defined anywhere. We have a rule for calculating specific modifiers. We don't have a rule or even a defined concept of an unarmed attack modifier.
It is just sloppy.
EDIT: Mods I mis-clicked when I was flagging this to change to the advice forum. I meant to flag it as in the wrong forum. Woops =P
Hi everyone.
My Fighter/Druid has just hit level 7, and after 1 combat as a large Bear with Fighter feats it seems to be absolutely crazy good. I'm still sad about missing my flurry-of-blows Bear, but Fighter has been fun.
One problem that seems to be coming up is actually just that we're using Foundry VTT for this game, and the Wild Shape/Untamed Form macros don't seem to be working correctly, and as far as I can tell they are no longer supported. If anyone has any suggestions I would greatly appreciate it.
So I do have a Wild Shape macro, and I did find an update to "Untamed Form" as well. Unfortunately they don't seem to increase the spell level along with my character level. I don't know if this is because I'm only using the Druid archetype or if it's a just bug for Wild Shape, but it's a thing. It means that my attacks in Animal Form are still coded with a +1 to damage and that my AC is not updating to the correct level either. Also since I hit level 7 I become large when using Wild Shape and that is not working either. I have found work-arounds for all these problems, but my turn is becoming slower due to my need to manually change things.
As a separate problem my Martial Artist archetype doesn't seem to be giving me Master proficiency in Unarmed Strikes. This might be just a remaster change thoguh so there may not be a fix for that.
I've put this here in the hopes that someone might have a fix but I also recognise that this might not be the place to ask, and that there may be no solution ...
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As a separate problem my Martial Artist archetype doesn't seem to be giving me Master proficiency in Unarmed Strikes. This might be just a remaster change thoguh so there may not be a fix for that.
That one is a change in the remaster, yes. Not a bug. There's no way to get a fighter's higher proficiency on battleform attacks at level 5 or higher, now. Until level 19, anyway.
As a separate problem my Martial Artist archetype doesn't seem to be giving me Master proficiency in Unarmed Strikes. This might be just a remaster change thoguh so there may not be a fix for that.That one is a change in the remaster, yes. Not a bug. There's no way to get a fighter's higher proficiency on battleform attacks at level 5 or higher, now. Until level 19, anyway.
Oh actually I did know that. I'm playing a Premaster Druid archetype for that reason, complete with metal-o-phobia and all that. Totally forgot =P
Yeah I guess I'll just have to deal with that manually. It's not too hard, just takes a few seconds longer.
Thanks for the reminder =)
I got your back, MrCharisma! Thanks for the Edit!EDIT: Mods I mis-clicked when I was flagging this to change to the advice forum. I meant to flag it as in the wrong forum. Woops =P
Thanks Maya.
Also general thanks to all the mods. I really appreciate this place, so propps to you =)
As a separate problem my Martial Artist archetype doesn't seem to be giving me Master proficiency in Unarmed Strikes. This might be just a remaster change thoguh so there may not be a fix for that.That one is a change in the remaster, yes. Not a bug. There's no way to get a fighter's higher proficiency on battleform attacks at level 5 or higher, now. Until level 19, anyway.Oh actually I did know that. I'm playing a Premaster Druid archetype for that reason, complete with metal-o-phobia and all that. Totally forgot =P
Yeah I guess I'll just have to deal with that manually. It's not too hard, just takes a few seconds longer.
Thanks for the reminder =)
I'm confused about what you mean about a premaster Druid Archetype? It's Martial Artist that changed in a relevant way, here. The Druid Archetype never allowed it to work without the old Martial Artist dedication.
I'm confused about what you mean about a premaster Druid Archetype? It's Martial Artist that changed in a relevant way, here. The Druid Archetype never allowed it to work without the old Martial Artist dedication.
Oh. I thought it would be cheesy to pick and choose the Remaster/Premaster stuff to get the best of both worlds so I decided to make everything Premaster. So I have less AC when not wild-shaped because I can't wear metal armour. The GM thought that was sensible.
I might have some remaster stuff because that's automated and I really can't be bothered trying to implement that, but mostly all the choices I've made are Premaster.
EDIT: I'm a Premaster Druid because I needed Premaster Martial artist for the build to work properly, and I didn't want to cheese it too much. That's what I meant.
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Personaly i feel like ither everything is pre remaster(for all players and monsters) or nothing is. it feels wrong to mix and match.
on to the topic of battle forms, i stoped even trying to use them since the rules are horrible (as you might have noticed),
to much are unclear and will depend alot on you GM's ruling, so for me druids have lost one of its core pillars.
but i have accepted that since they have not even wanted to comment on the state of Battle Forms for years now, let alone giving a erata or clarification.
Personaly i feel like ither everything is pre remaster(for all players and monsters) or nothing is. it feels wrong to mix and match.
Yeah we were going to totally switch, but not everyone's stuff was affected by the remaster, and some of it was changed a lot more than others. For example, as was mentioned earlier the Martial Artist no longer gives improved proficiency with unarmed strikes, which means my whole build was basically shot. Since this was a pre-existing character the GM didn't want to totally nerf it mid-campaign so he let me keep the Premaster version. That's when I decided if I was going Premaster for that I should be Premaster for the whole character and everyone thought that was a reasonable compromise.
on to the topic of battle forms, i stoped even trying to use them since the rules are horrible (as you might have noticed),
to much are unclear and will depend alot on you GM's ruling, so for me druids have lost one of its core pillars.
but i have accepted that since they have not even wanted to comment on the state of Battle Forms for years now, let alone giving a erata or clarification.
I haven't had Too much of a problem with the rules. I say that having created a ~90 post thread helping me understand the rules for Battleforms, but I think everything I've had trouble with is in this thread, and it's all been cleared up to my satisfaction .
The problem I'm having now is that the Wild Shape/Untamed Form macros for Foundry VTT don't seem to be supported anymore. I have some macros, but the spell doesn't seem to scale with level, so every time I attack I have to manually input a bunch of modifiers to get things where they're meant to be.
Anyway I realise that might be something I should bring up on a Foundry forum rather than hear, but I thought it was worth a shot.
Thanks everyone, even if you can't solve this exact problem I really appreciate the help people have given me =)
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on to the topic of battle forms, i stoped even trying to use them since the rules are horrible (as you might have noticed),
to much are unclear and will depend alot on you GM's ruling,
While I absolutely loathe how unclear the rules are and how Paizo refuses to clarify things the battle forms are still a very useful addition to the druids arsenal (much, much less useful to most martials but still has some value). This is true even if you assume pretty much the most restrictive interpretation of the rules.
One of the bigger problems I found with Monk with wildshape is the loss of AC as you level, the difference between the Monks unarmored AC and WS fixed AC is huge at higher levels
That's not such a big deal for me. Our campaign only goes to level 10 so we don't have to deal with high level stuff. Animal For itself gives an AC of level+18, so at level 10 it will max out at AC:28. A DEX-based Monk with a +1 Rune on their outfit would have AC:30, but that's basically the pinacle there and it's only 2 above what I'll have .
Even with that, giving up a little AC for extra reach, damage and flavour seems fine to me. It's only a point or two.
EDIT: Also I ended up playing a Fighter instead of a Monk, so the difference will be smaller for me.