Summoner Tipe for PFS GMs (and Players)

[Doug Hahn]

Every darn time I have a summoner at the table I come to disagreements, bemusion, or confusion. This is because I don't have the time to build and play one myself, and I don't remember all the wonky rules. It seems players often make honest mistakes with Tandem Action, and other errors in their own favor.

First
Any tips from fellow GMs on adjudicating this class? What're your "gotchas" you watch out when you have a high level summoner at the table? What about interactions with abilities that alter the action economy; I'm thinking Eidolon Mounts/Mount rules, Haste+Tandem, etc? I have the faq bookmarked on my own site but it's still a cause of intense frustration for most summoners I've come across; this compounds the bad feelings at the table.

Second
A source of frustration for me personally is players not unclear about their turn's action types; for example not being clear about what's a tandem action, turn ending, etc. Any tips for better communication from the player side of the screen? Would love to pass this along to players at the FLGS. Right now I ask players to verbally declare tandem actions, and tell me when the turn is over (this goes for all players).

[Sebastian Hirsch]

I have been GMing for a few and I am currently having blast playing one, so I am keen to help.

Well, the most common interaction is that with Act Together, no matter how you split up the actions either the eidolon or the summoner can make a 2+ action activity. To give an example, if the summoner casts a 2-action spell, there eidolon can't also cast a 2-action spell (for example the fey eidolon) or use many of the 2-action activities given unique to each type of eidolon.

The class gets some level of free lunch, but there are hard guide rails.

Something that has recently surprised a player of mine when I pointed it out, and later showed him the rules: Summoners and Eidolons share MAP, even if they are not using the mounted combat rules. So spells that require a spell attack are not very easy to use in many cases, so the players should plan carefully.

I am not certain what sort of local interactions you are seeing, so it is harder to give good feedback.

Regarding your second point, I am not sure what you are referring to. It is not a very simple class to pilot and benefits from some consideration before your turn.

To be frank I encounter more players piloting very complicated and involved investigator and thaumaturge builds where they tend to forget limitations ^^

[Pirate Rob]

There's some tricky bits with Tandem actions, and it's real easy to accidently combine them. Especially when you've got something complicated as a player, it's super helpful to be able to walk the GM step by step with what you're doing.

Example, beginning of session "The Eidolon and I share actions, but we've got a special action called act together that gives either of us a bonus single action. I've also got a feat called Tandem Movement that lets us both move using the same action. Generally all Eidolon action enhancement powers have the tandem keyword and thus can't be combined."

Also if you're playing a summoner, read the FAQ about how your Eidolon interacts with skill challenges. The advantage is you can roll from either your stat block or the Eidolon's stat block, not that you get twice as many rolls.

Especially if your GM isn't familiar, walk through the steps instead of taking shortcuts. It's a good habit to be in, in general to avoid issues. Also if weird reactions happen mid turn, the exact order of your actions can matter quite a bit.

[BretI]

As a player, I declare Act Together and Tandom Movement when I use them. As has been noted, Tandom Movement costs a feat.

As a player, I tend to summon the Eidolon at the beginning of the session and have it out all the time.

You can use Act Together for a single action activity and I have done so.

I find the interaction between Haste and this class a little weird. Haste gives you an extra action for movement or a strike. That hasted action is always something you have to watch on any class. I do not allow people to use the extra action from Haste with Act Together nor Tandom Movement because my understanding is that the strike or move would be a sub action of the Tandom action. If this is wrong, please correct me.

In my opinion, Haste is less useful to the Summoner than the Magus.

Remember that the Eidolon goes away when the Summoner is asleep or forced unconscious. Since it takes three actions to summon the eidolon, going unconscious is bad. It also means the Eidolon can’t be on watch while the Summoner is sleeping.

Remember that the Summoner and Eidolon each have their own exploration activities. They can share senses, but that takes an action and one of them can no longer sense with their own body when doing it.

The shared hit point pool can be advantageous at times. It means healing can be targeted at either of them. It is usually a big disadvantage — Summoners really hate when both they and their Eidolon are caught in AoEs — but smart players can and should be allowed to take advantage of it in the few cases where it is to their advantage.

Conditions that do not modify the number of actions should be tracked separately between the Summoner and the Eidolon. Just because the Eidolon has Doomed 2 doesn’t mean the Summoner also has the condition.

I have not played with Mounts on any character yet. I would need the player to walk me through it.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

BretI wrote:

It is usually a big disadvantage — Summoners really hate when both they and their Eidolon are caught in AoEs —

That part of your post might be a tiny bit confusing, as in cases where the summoner and eidolon are both in the area of the same damaging effect, only the worse effect applies.

SoM page53 wrote:

Lastly, the connection between you and your eidolon
means you both share a single pool of Hit Points.
Damage taken by either you or the eidolon reduces your
Hit Points, while healing either of you recovers your Hit
Points. Like with your actions, if you and your eidolon
are both subject to the same effect that affects your Hit
Points, you apply those effects only once (applying the
greater effect, if applicable). For instance, if you and
your eidolon get caught in an area effect that would
heal or damage you both, only the greater amount of
healing or damage applies.

.

Not saying you are playing this one wrong, and it can totally be unpleasant if both are getting the chance to crit fail on their save, particularly if secondary effects are attached, just wanted to post this so others are aware of it.

[BretI]

Yeah, I probably should have given more details there.

For damaging effects it is like being under a constant misfortune effect in that you save twice, take the worse result. Your chances of success are way lower and chances of crit failure are way higher.

You can eventually take a 10th level feat (Protective Bond, a reaction) where you take the lesser of the damage, but that is a pretty heavy opportunity cost and uses up a reaction. I don’t expect to take it on my current summoner.

Building the Summoner can be a little tricky. I don’t think many summoners will take archetypes just because their class feats make a huge difference in the build. There is the idea of an empty or null class — what would the class look like if you didn’t take any class feats. In my opinion, the summoner would look very bad in that case.

[Doug Hahn]

These are helpful. Thank you.

[cavernshark]

As a GM, I always ask the summoner to clearly articulate their Act Together (e.g "I Act Together to have my Summoner Stride and my Eidolon use a two-action activity") It's really important for the players and the GM to be explicit about the action use. I try to do this myself when I play my Summoner as well.

Another area though that often comes up outside of combat is during exploration or other activities. Unlike Companions or Familiars, Eidolons do get to participate granting a second Exploration Activity except when there's a victory point system based on a total number of PCs. This can be a very important thing because it can mean the Summoner might be able to make two checks.

As a GM just make sure you know when those 'per/player victory point' systems are in effect and communicate to the Summoner that either they or the Eidolon needs to make the check and otherwise make sure the Summoner knows both can act. Likewise, as a player, when opportunities to roll come up be sure to ask the GM if you both can roll or not. You should advocate to use your class ability here but also understand when you can't.

[Doug Hahn]

Thanks, Cavernshark. I am going to ask players to be explicit about the use. That's a great idea.

[Ascalaphus]

The skill challenge/exploration activity thing is subtle but pretty important.

Summoners are skill monkeys, but it's not quite as obvious as rogues and investigators. You get a normal amount of skills, and not a crazy amount of upgrades. But often you can choose between you and your eidolon, who's going to do the task based on who has the best ability score for that skill.

With that in mind, it's not actually a nerf that you only get one roll in skill challenges based on the number of players, because you also only count for one player, despite having two bodies on the map. So the required number of successes for the party doesn't go up, but you have a better choice of ability scores to roll with.

For exploration activities it's actually a boost that you get to roll extra, but then again you might be making rolls for completely different activities.

[Tomppa]

I'm relatively new to Summoner, not having seen more than a couple as a GM; and my own summoner is level 4 (in an AP).

I found it tedious to declare act together every round, especially since my (undead) eidolon does not (yet) have a 2-action activity, so it shouldn't matter how I spread my 4 actions (as long as both get at least 1) - declaring it didn't feel important or informative. "hey I'll be taking my actions now", basically.

That being said, now that I picked up Tandem Movement, It becomes a lot more important because you can't use tandem movement while you're using act together. This creates weird situations like with turns like "I cast two 1-action buffs on eidolon, eidolon moves next to enemy, and strikes". I can't actually turn that move into a tandem... Unless I do them in a different order. "Tandem move, then act together into 2x 1-action spells + strike" but there could be reasons (like potential AoEs) why I want to cast the spells before the move, etc.

So, maybe keep an eye out on at what point they take the tandem move. The mention of shared MAP is also a good tip, that's a thing that tripped me up when I started playing summoner.

Also, unlike Bretl claimed, the eidolon Does Not disappear when the summoner sleeps - it used to do this in 1e, but in 2e, it only unmanifests if it is forced beyond 100ft, or if you're reduced to 0 hp. I *assume* it needs to sleep, too, but this isn't usually relevant in PFS where nightly ambushes are pretty rare.

[Doug Hahn]

That's perfect. The example you gave, Tampa, is exactly what bewildered me when I ran one last. Thank you

[BretI]

Tomppa wrote:

Also, unlike Bretl claimed, the eidolon Does Not disappear when the summoner sleeps - it used to do this in 1e, but in 2e, it only unmanifests if it is forced beyond 100ft, or if you're reduced to 0 hp. I *assume* it needs to sleep, too, but this isn't usually relevant in PFS where nightly ambushes are pretty rare.

It appears you may be right. In a quick search I couldn’t find it. I don’t have time right now to reread the whole Summoner class but I could have easily carried it over from 1st edition. Right now I’m not sure.

Assuming that you are correct, it does bring up another weird case. Assuming the Eidolon was manifested while you were asleep (unconscious) it could not act. Unconscious prevents the character from acting and if the character can’t act it prevents the Eidolon from acting.

So assuming a threat came into the room, would the Eidolon be able to wake you via the shared link? I will need to think and look over the rules, really not sure how it should work.

There are certainly some weird corner cases with this class.

[daaaana]

BretI wrote:

Assuming that you are correct, it does bring up another weird case. Assuming the Eidolon was manifested while you were asleep (unconscious) it could not act. Unconscious prevents the character from acting and if the character can’t act it prevents the Eidolon from acting.

So assuming a threat came into the room, would the Eidolon be able to wake you via the shared link? I will need to think and look over the rules, really not sure how it should work.

There are certainly some weird corner cases with this class.

This is incorrect, the summoner and eidolon are explicitly allowed to act even if the other is unable to for some reason:

AoN wrote:

If only one of you becomes restricted in how you can spend your actions, that restriction doesn't automatically extend to the other; for example, if your eidolon became immobilized or petrified, it wouldn't be able to move, but you could still use your actions to move. The GM resolves any situation that's unclear.

With this, I don't see any issues from e.g. an eidolon keeping watch and waking the summoner via their telepathic link (or verbally) if something happens.

[BretI]

Read a little further.

Secrets of Magic pg 54, last paragraph of Lost and Altered Actions wrote:

This means that if the eidolon comes under an effect that would take its actions out of your control, such as the confused or controlled condition, you can use all of your shared actions so your eidolon doesn't have any actions remaining to cause trouble (as long as you are able to act). However, if you came under such an effect, you would simply use all of your shared actions, preventing your eidolon from acting.

The summoner has to give actions to the Eidolon. If the Summoner can’t act, they can’t give actions to the Eidolon.

[Ascalaphus]

That's talking about if someone casts Dominate on you, not if you're taking a nap.

[BretI]

Created a thread in Rules Discussion for if the Eidolon can act when the Summoner has no actions.

Let’s keep this discussion to more general Summoner tips.