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Most of the Remaster talk I’ve seen has been about Alignment or Class changes, but I’ve seen surprisingly little chatter about some really exciting news: with the shift away from OGL material, there’s going to be eight new dragons (two for each of the four traditions) in the spotlight! Golarion-specific stuff is always a joy to see, and I think this framework is a novel grouping for them.
Adamantine, Diabolic, Fortune, Mirage, and Omen Dragons have all been namedropped, giving us just over half the set… I can’t wait to meet them!
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Diabolic is clearly Divine, and probably has a mirror over on the Celestial side.
Fortune and Omen sound pretty Occult.
I'm going to guess that Adamantine is Primal and Mirage is Arcane?
If the dragons are going to be based long the lines of traditions, I wonder if there will be any impact to how Sorcerer bloodlines work out.
Well, for one thing you're going to have dragon sorcs of all four traditions.
Right there with you ^^. The diabloic dragon certainly looks like absolute fire (pun very much intended). It has what seems to have something like a metallic face shield and massive curved horns, which is exactly my vibe. So much better than the fat slug that was the infernal dragon.
The biggest thing in my head right now is what would win, a Mirage dragon or a Dassault Mirage
Jokes aside, a luck manipulating dragon is such an interesting concept, especially if their breath weapon could have an alternative fortune/misfortune effects.
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I'll be interested in seeing which one takes the 'scheming mastermind, working through the hoards of intermediaries to execute his plans' role that my beloved Blues have in PF1.
I don't know for sure, but the idea of an omen dragon really sings to me of a schemer in the background, using divinations and fate magic to create great byzantine plots, manipulating pawns who aren't even aware that they exist.
Diabolic could very easily get some of that scheming on as well.
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Will Fortune 500 dragons replace gold dragons or just be obsessed with accumulating all the world's gold?
I'm really excited to see what they do now that the color mold has been broken. I'm happy to get away from this color = this breath weapon, or the nature of the dragon's personality.
Most curious to see what dragon replaces the screaming nature of blue dragons. Whatever the new categories of dragons are I hope they are not tied to one appearance. I think whatever the most scheming dragon is its appearance should be the hardest to identify it by.
I'm also curious to see if the new types of dragons might end up as new sorcerer bloodlines someday.
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I hope we can get a lovable social dragon like the brass dragons or a goofy prankster one like copper dragons (which is what mirage is going to be)
I also hope we get new dragon gods alongside these new dragons, both good and evil
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Jason Bulmahn namedropped another dragon accidentally during the Q&A stream. Imperial Dragons. Link to the stream found HERE. Timecode is 52:00, in case the link doesn't jump to that spot for you.
I'm guessing Imperial Dragons are the other Arcane dragon alongside Mirage.
EDIT: Slightly wrong, see next reply for clarification.
Jason Bulmahn namedropped another dragon accidentally during the Q&A stream. Imperial Dragons. Link to the stream found HERE. Timecode is 52:00, in case the link doesn't jump to that spot for you.
I'm guessing Imperial Dragons are the other Arcane dragon alongside Mirage.
But... Imperial Dragons were published in Beastiary 3 and cover Forest, Sea, Sky, Sovereign, and Underworld dragons.
I wonder if the remaster is changing the Imperials...
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Jason Bulmahn namedropped another dragon accidentally during the Q&A stream. Imperial Dragons. Link to the stream found HERE. Timecode is 52:00, in case the link doesn't jump to that spot for you.
I'm guessing Imperial Dragons are the other Arcane dragon alongside Mirage.
Imperial Dragons are the “Asian-style” dragons we got in Bestiary 3, and aren’t an OGL creation to my knowledge. They presumably exist in addition to these 8.
However, this could be an Empyreal Dragon, which would make a nice heavenly counter to the Diabolic Dragon.
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The goal of these 8 new dragons is less about replacing anything and more about adding things that we've created.
Just like with every bestiary we did in 1st edition we took the chance to add 5 more new dragons to the mix.
This time, we're adding 8 instead of 5 is all.
The organization of all these dragons into lines along the four magic traditions will likely see us some day reorganizing the existing 1st edition dragons, I guess, but that's a project for later. How much later... we'll see, but for now it's about debuting these new 8 dragons, which will, I hope and suspect, represent 8 different types and personalities and themes, rather than 8 different variations on the "live in the cave and kill adventurers." Which is fine, but dragons are more than that, and they'll continue to be more than that.
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Jason Bulmahn namedropped another dragon accidentally during the Q&A stream. Imperial Dragons. Link to the stream found HERE. Timecode is 52:00, in case the link doesn't jump to that spot for you.
I'm guessing Imperial Dragons are the other Arcane dragon alongside Mirage.
But... Imperial Dragons were published in Beastiary 3 and cover Forest, Sea, Sky, Sovereign, and Underworld dragons.
I wonder if the remaster is changing the Imperials...
Imperial dragons already exist
Yes, that's what I thought as well, but Jason talking about them alongside the new dragons wouldn't make much sense. But then...
Imperial Dragons are the “Asian-style” dragons we got in Bestiary 3, and aren’t an OGL creation to my knowledge. They presumably exist in addition to these 8.
However, this could be an Empyreal Dragon, which would make a nice heavenly counter to the Diabolic Dragon.
THIS makes the most sense. Empyreal Dragons would be a delightful pick as an additional dragon. If that's the case, would it be fair to say they'd be the counterpart Divine Dragon to Diabolic Dragons?
EDIT: I didn't read the very last part of keftiu's quote, lmaoooo. Basically said the same thing.
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This takes me back to the old (A)D&D2 days. Dragon deities would be cool nice-to-haves.You may not have run across them yet, but Apsu and Dahak are already worshipped on Golarion.
Huh. Those... are going to need a bit of a rework as well. That whole "tied to metallic/chromatic" thing isn't really a good look right now.
They may not need much, but they're going to need at least a little.
I am trying to hold judgment until the new material is released. However, as a dragon lover, I am not a fan of new additions. I would rather a focus on individuals with personalities and goals than new categories of dragons that have predetermined behaviors based on their “type”.
I tend to fall into the boat of improving existing material over just adding more.
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So if Mirage Dragons are Arcane + Diabolic and Empyreal are our assumed Divine pair, then we have some guesswork to do!
CynDuck had the brilliant thought that Adamantine might be the Metal half of a Primal pair, both themed off the new Metal and Wood Elemental Planes coming in RoE. I’d wager that Fortune and Omen Dragons are our Occult pair, as fate, chance, time, and all that weirdness seems well in their wheelhouse. That leaves Mirage Dragons with a missing dance partner, currently unrevealed - Truth Dragons, perhaps, antithesis of those who weave illusions?
I wonder if its going to be a leaf, grass, or flower dragon instead of wood given that forest dragons are already a thing.
Also if its going to be a direct opposite of a Diabolic Dragon, would it be an Angelic Dragon embodying Heaven? Or an Azatic Dragon embodying Elysium?
This is looking like PKM :D
Mirage is a pretty obvious illusion allusion, and we've seen it sporting a very arcane design on the GMC cover alongside the Runelord of illusion magic. I'm presuming the initial batch of arcane dragons is themed around the schools of magic. If we are presuming thematic opposites (it seems early for that), then it would be conjuration or transmutation, as the fund magic cycle designates those as the opposed schools for dealing very directly with material objects.
Occult dragons are probably sticking to more abstract concepts.
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Mirage is a pretty obvious illusion allusion, and we've seen it sporting a very arcane design on the GMC cover alongside the Runelord of illusion magic. I'm presuming the initial batch of arcane dragons is themed around the schools of magic. If we are presuming thematic opposites (it seems early for that), then it would be conjuration or transmutation, as the fund magic cycle designates those as the opposed schools for dealing very directly with material objects.
Occult dragons are probably sticking to more abstract concepts.
It could be a Divination dragon (or even better Revelation dragon) opposing Illusion / Mirage.
If the dragons are going to be based long the lines of traditions, I wonder if there will be any impact to how Sorcerer bloodlines work out.Well, for one thing you're going to have dragon sorcs of all four traditions.
Subclassception!
Subclassception!
If the dragons are going to be based long the lines of traditions, I wonder if there will be any impact to how Sorcerer bloodlines work out.Well, for one thing you're going to have dragon sorcs of all four traditions.
I’m worried about what’s going to happen to the Wyrmblessed subclass
Or even the old Draconic sorcerer. Would still like the option to play as a silver draconic sorcerer or a brass one you know?
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It could be a Divination dragon (or even better Revelation dragon) opposing Illusion / Mirage.Mirage is a pretty obvious illusion allusion, and we've seen it sporting a very arcane design on the GMC cover alongside the Runelord of illusion magic. I'm presuming the initial batch of arcane dragons is themed around the schools of magic. If we are presuming thematic opposites (it seems early for that), then it would be conjuration or transmutation, as the fund magic cycle designates those as the opposed schools for dealing very directly with material objects.
Occult dragons are probably sticking to more abstract concepts.
I think an Omen dragon was teased, although that sounds more Occult to me.
Would still like the option to play as a silver draconic sorcerer or a brass one you know?
The old stuff is still useable in games. The new dragon bloodlines won't invalidate anything in the CRB any more than the genie bloodline does.
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I am trying to hold judgment until the new material is released. However, as a dragon lover, I am not a fan of new additions. I would rather a focus on individuals with personalities and goals than new categories of dragons that have predetermined behaviors based on their “type”.
I tend to fall into the boat of improving existing material over just adding more.
So, I would think of this less as "new additions" and more as "replacements" for dragon types that are about to be moved more into the supporting cast. It's being done because chromatic/metallic dragons as they stand now are pretty tied to the OGL, and Paizo needs to de-center them from the game for a bit. It's not just Paizo adding new dragons for the hell of it.
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So if Mirage Dragons are Arcane + Diabolic and Empyreal are our assumed Divine pair, then we have some guesswork to do!
CynDuck had the brilliant thought that Adamantine might be the Metal half of a Primal pair, both themed off the new Metal and Wood Elemental Planes coming in RoE. I’d wager that Fortune and Omen Dragons are our Occult pair, as fate, chance, time, and all that weirdness seems well in their wheelhouse. That leaves Mirage Dragons with a missing dance partner, currently unrevealed - Truth Dragons, perhaps, antithesis of those who weave illusions?
Thanks! I guess to go off that, I could see a wood dragon being themed around a special wood type in the game such as darkwood, considering that the adamantine dragon is based on one of the skymetals. Maybe it'll even be based on something new from Rage of Elements.
Or even the old Draconic sorcerer. Would still like the option to play as a silver draconic sorcerer or a brass one you know?
You'll still have the opportunity to use the old draconic sorcerer from the CRB, but I doubt they'll be including options for the chromatic/metallic dragons in Player Core 2 considering the OGL concerns. I'm excited to see what they replace them with though, with a few exceptions the classic D&D dragons have gotten a little stale for me.
So if Mirage Dragons are Arcane + Diabolic and Empyreal are our assumed Divine pair, then we have some guesswork to do!
CynDuck had the brilliant thought that Adamantine might be the Metal half of a Primal pair, both themed off the new Metal and Wood Elemental Planes coming in RoE. I’d wager that Fortune and Omen Dragons are our Occult pair, as fate, chance, time, and all that weirdness seems well in their wheelhouse. That leaves Mirage Dragons with a missing dance partner, currently unrevealed - Truth Dragons, perhaps, antithesis of those who weave illusions?
Thanks! I guess to go off that, I could see a wood dragon being themed around a special wood type in the game such as darkwood, considering that the adamantine dragon is based on one of the skymetals. Maybe it'll even be based on something new from Rage of Elements.
Or even the old Draconic sorcerer. Would still like the option to play as a silver draconic sorcerer or a brass one you know?You'll still have the opportunity to use the old draconic sorcerer from the CRB, but I doubt they'll be including options for the chromatic/metallic dragons in Player Core 2 considering the OGL concerns. I'm excited to see what they replace them with though, with a few exceptions the classic D&D dragons have gotten a little stale for me.
PFS isn’t going to force you to use the new version?
PFS isn’t going to force you to use the new version?Or even the old Draconic sorcerer. Would still like the option to play as a silver draconic sorcerer or a brass one you know?You'll still have the opportunity to use the old draconic sorcerer from the CRB, but I doubt they'll be including options for the chromatic/metallic dragons in Player Core 2 considering the OGL concerns. I'm excited to see what they replace them with though, with a few exceptions the classic D&D dragons have gotten a little stale for me.
Oh, PFS completely slipped my mind since I don't play in it, I have no idea what they'll do with it.
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Oh, PFS completely slipped my mind since I don't play in it, I have no idea what they'll do with it.PFS isn’t going to force you to use the new version?Or even the old Draconic sorcerer. Would still like the option to play as a silver draconic sorcerer or a brass one you know?You'll still have the opportunity to use the old draconic sorcerer from the CRB, but I doubt they'll be including options for the chromatic/metallic dragons in Player Core 2 considering the OGL concerns. I'm excited to see what they replace them with though, with a few exceptions the classic D&D dragons have gotten a little stale for me.
Since the new dragons and the associated character abilities come IN ADDITION to the existing ones, I think they will still be available.
Unless Paizo and their lawyers deem it too risky to keep them open, I guess.
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When Paizo reworked the Alchemist, PFS allowed Alchemists to be retrained for free. So I expect the same for all the classes with significant rework.
Oh, PFS completely slipped my mind since I don't play in it, I have no idea what they'll do with it.PFS isn’t going to force you to use the new version?Or even the old Draconic sorcerer. Would still like the option to play as a silver draconic sorcerer or a brass one you know?You'll still have the opportunity to use the old draconic sorcerer from the CRB, but I doubt they'll be including options for the chromatic/metallic dragons in Player Core 2 considering the OGL concerns. I'm excited to see what they replace them with though, with a few exceptions the classic D&D dragons have gotten a little stale for me.Since the new dragons and the associated character abilities come IN ADDITION to the existing ones, I think they will still be available.
Unless Paizo and their lawyers deem it too risky to keep them open, I guess.
Well since they're trying to shift the focus more towards Paizo original dragons I'd assume they'd want to highlight those instead of the classic D&D ones in draconic subclasses. Plus, having a full 18 different options listed sounds overwhelming, and having 10 of those not be in the Monster Core only makes it feel weirder.
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Didn't they say something specifically about PFS in their announcement? I'd check, but I'm on break. Or, um, procrastinating during work hours. Same difference.
When Paizo reworked the Alchemist, PFS allowed Alchemists to be retrained for free. So I expect the same for all the classes with significant rework.
What if I like my sorcerer having silver dragon or brass dragon or other themed powers?
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There has been zero indication that those powers are going to be removed or made non-canon. It has been, in fact, explicitly stated that chromatic and metallic dragons will still exist in the ORC-Golarion.
In the rare case of a conflict between a new book and legacy source, campaign management will provide clear advice with as little disruption as possible to player characters or the campaign itself.
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I'm pretty sure that even the PFS team doesn't know yet what's happening with the remastered stuff and PFS, but I suspect that all existing draconic sorcerers will be grandfathered going forward.
I am making a new wyrm-blessed draconic sorcerer that I will be starting out in PFS, and I'm not worried for his future. Make your character with confidence and enjoy it.
Hmm
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When Paizo reworked the Alchemist, PFS allowed Alchemists to be retrained for free. So I expect the same for all the classes with significant rework.What if I like my sorcerer having silver dragon or brass dragon or other themed powers?
Then you can and should and will be able to use those powers from the core rulebook you already own, since those rules will remain compatible.
As for how that's handled in PFS... we'll have to wait and see, but at the very least since the remastered sorcerer isn't scheduled until Player Core 2, I suspect that when the first remastered books come out later this year, that'll be the only option for sorcerers in the remastered rules for a bit.
When Paizo reworked the Alchemist, PFS allowed Alchemists to be retrained for free. So I expect the same for all the classes with significant rework.What if I like my sorcerer having silver dragon or brass dragon or other themed powers?
We also have a recent clarification (well, it was a clarification to me) that the chromatics and metallics are here to stay in a more serious way than we all were thinking. Like, in a "they'll get remastered in too, eventually" way. It's just that that particular bit of work is potentially finicky, and not amazingly high-priority, so it's not going to be part of the first few big pushes. Still, we will be getting them back eventually in a format that can frolic their way through future APs, and, presumably, be a source for draconic bloodlines for even remastered Sorcerers.
As such, I'd be willing to lay a bet that the folks in charge of making decisions for PFS are going to let existing dragon sorcs more or less stay with their existing draconic bloodlines, possibly with a bit of rules-frobbing to make them fit the new Sorceror structure (whatever that involves). Now, I don't know them personally. I can't guarantee that, or anything, but they generally seem inclined to make pretty reasonable calls on things, and that really does seem like the reasonable call to make.
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One wonders if we might see, say Azure and Scarlet Dragons replacing Blues and Reds.
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One wonders if we might see, say Azure and Scarlet Dragons replacing Blues and Reds.
...or possibly not have color-based names at all? I mean, it seems like it would be reasonable to call Red Dragons something like "Tyrant Dragons" or "Overlord Dragons" (as compared with the Gold's "Monarch Dragons").
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I like the color theme--it's a good visual contrast to the metal theme--but "chromatic dragons" is a pretty striking similarity to D&D. We'll see.
I'm thinking... there's room for a book, eventually? Something along the lines of Book of the Dead, for dragons. Not soon, though. It doesnt' feel like it's particularly critical for any of the region books they might want to produce any time soon, and it would absolutely want to wait until after the OGL-derived dragons were properly remastered... which is something that's going to take a while regardless.
Might work well in association with a heavily dragon-focused AP, though, again, I can't really think of any regions where dragons are a particularly big deal.
One wonders if we might see, say Azure and Scarlet Dragons replacing Blues and Reds....or possibly not have color-based names at all? I mean, it seems like it would be reasonable to call Red Dragons something like "Tyrant Dragons" or "Overlord Dragons" (as compared with the Gold's "Monarch Dragons").
Brass dragons to “friendly dragons” or “wholesome dragons” or “chatty dragons”
Copper dragons to “jester dragons”
Silver dragons to “shield dragons”
Gold dragon as monarch dragon as you said
Bronze dragon to… damn we already have a sea dragon hmmm… welp idk