| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
... You know, it kind of feels like the fact that Square Enix uses the English loanword モンク to describe its iron-knuckles-and-gauntlet-wielding chakra-manipulating character class, rather than any of the native words which refer to monks or martial artists, should count as at least evidence toward the notion that the character class is indeed borrowed from D&D for their Western Fantasy-inspired game. But I suppose when you get down to it, the opinions of some Japanese game developers can hardly speak for everyone, never mind that the shaolin monk stereotype happens to be Chinese.
... I had another thought but I'm losing track of it in the ensuing discussion. Suffice to say, "If it ain't broke" doesn't work as a sentiment if no one will agree whether it is or is not broke. I have personally heard a number of compelling talking points (by real life Asian people no less) about how the Monk can end up (but is not always inherently) making folk uncomfortable, but for every one I bring up no doubt there is someone who can describe their unfamiliarity with these complaints as evidence that nothing should ever be changed that they don't agree with.
To be clear, there is no easy-to-draw, "is racist" and "is not racist" line we can sort things into. Even the same example might be in different places along that spectrum when viewed in different contexts. The supremacy of context in interpretation is not just for high school English classes. I cannot speak definitively whether the name Monk should be changed or not, and I have absolutely no expectation that this errata pass will be where and when that decision is made, but I can say that there is more that can be done to improve the depiction of Monks from their humble origins as foreigner martial artists who do all the wuxia tropes, and at least considering whether the name is necessary is part of that.
... which so happens to be consistent with what I was thinking the last time a version of this thread got locked about 4 months ago...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
... You know, it kind of feels like the fact that Square Enix uses the English loanword モンク to describe its iron-knuckles-and-gauntlet-wielding chakra-manipulating character class, rather than any of the native words which refer to monks or martial artists, should count as at least evidence toward the notion that the character class is indeed borrowed from D&D for their Western Fantasy-inspired game.
It's a loanword from the 80's that started with video games.
the shaolin monk stereotype happens to be Chinese.
Enryakuji temple introduced Tendai Buddhism from China into Japan and had warrior monks, so a close match exists in Japan: not as cool as the old shaolin monk schools though.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would think of a Barbarian as someone who is great at fighting, but not because he can just jump into a state of murderous heightened emotion, but because he has not been trained by living in a city, and was born more in the wild lands, where the their people had to survive by being just as wild. There should be reaction penalties and some nervousness when a Barbarian is always surrounded by buildings in a city, and dealing with bigger merchants, etc. But hey, you know that might need some role-playing :)Right. The point of the thread is that the Barbarian class as presented in PF2 has drifted from the tropes you outlined for Barbs above. They no longer need to be from “the wildlands.”
Hence the suggestion to rename the class.
Bingo, Slaap’s description of the class is precisely why it needs to be changed.
It is not a nature class, it’s not an anti-civilization class, anyone from any culture or upbringing can be the class, the only staple is the rage.
Also “survive in the wilds” is the Ranger thing, Barbarians don’t really have any class abilities or bonuses for that.
You want to know what a true Barbarian (as a class for a roleplaying game) looks like? the Hradani, from David Weber's War God series.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That works for both sides though: where is the poll that it is bad and offensive and if so, is it so to actual ethnic peoples or just people getting offended for them?That is absolutely fair, and I would point out that I am not arguing that there is indeed an offended class. I am arguing against the standard TTRPG antiwokie argument that someone’s game experience to date trumps all other experiences and walks of life.
Let’s face it, the argument that: “gamers use it this way, so there must not be anyone who feels otherwise because I say so without support” is an argument deserving of pushback
I agree with this if we accept that there is no objective way to name the class that Pathfinder refers to as "Monk," and therefore calling it anything is wrong in one sense or another.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Something else hit me this morning. Are Mithral/Adamantine on the OGL chopping block? I mean I call Mithral Truesilver in my writing.Mithral and adamantine are not owned by DnD.
(Side note: Why are you calling mithral true silver? Irl silver is still a thing, just less magical. Just call it magic silver or something to that effect.)
I like the way it sounds. That in Pathfinder logic, Mithral is treated as silver for DR purposes, and is rarer than normal silver my world treats it closer to the 'Platonic Ideal' of silver. :-)
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think its bit of moot point how offensive term "barbarian" is (is IS a slur though). Like, I would say its less offensive than "savage" or "primitive" or other modern synonyms, but mostly because everyone on this forum are barbarians from perspective of Roman empire :P So compared to its synonyms, its pretty archaic word to use because Conan the Barbarian shifted understanding of word to more "cool". So its kinda like how punk movement's name come from word that means more or less "worthless degenerate", but punk movement was all about owning the word and screwing what mainstream thought(at least until punk died from capitalism). I think part of character fantasy of being "barbarian" is idea of saying screw you to snobs who are aghast at presence of barbarian. Its like... Like if you called your character class "jerk" or "prick", but archaic enough that not everyone realizes they are doing the "punk" thing by using that name, which is ironically part of what killed punks in first place, when it started being "cool" to mainstream.
Either way, my main problem with name is that barbarian, is that PF2e definition of the word assumes it is someone who uses rage and brute force to fight, but people also treat it like the classic roman "foreigners are primitive people living in tribes outside our great cities" propaganda so now all tribal people use rage to fight because of name alone. Kinda like how all monk monasteries in inner sea teach martial arts because of monk class.
Its kinda like if "Fighter" was named "Knight" and now all knights in setting "had" to be fighters with weird exception of the "holy champions" :p If ranger instead had even more generic name of "Archer Tracker", it would be less associated with nature, because name of the class in itself leads to how class is placed into the world.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
(sidenote, if nobody ever did conversion of barbarian to D&D Modern and call them "punk", that is so wrong x'D Raging against the masses is definitely how punk fighting style should be :P )
Heh, I wanted to build a PSF Skald who did perform puppetry so he could be the Societies first "Master of Puppets."
More Metal than Punk, but still funny.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm just annoyed we can't have discussion on this topic without it devolving into personal insults and then mods having to come to lock down the thread.
Like term can be problematic beyond it being offensive, like them having effect on how setting is built that is silly <_< Like, paladin got renamed to champion, that in itself proves that class names aren't stuck to stone because of tradition. So whats problem with removing association that everyone in monastery knows how to do mean flying kick and deflect arrows and that shoanti and kellids are muscle ragers when they aren't rangers, druids or other casters?
Like, I get perspective "I don't want it to change because I'm used to old word and I don't think its offensive", but nobody really tells me what current names for those two bring to game besides D&Disms like the previously mentioned tropes. Though tbf, maybe that is the point, that people have fondness for D&Disms like "all priests know magic" and "forest hippies know nature magic" that lot of settings have and consider all monasteries being spiritual martial art schools just part of that?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I agree with this if we accept that there is no objective way to name the class that Pathfinder refers to as "Monk," and therefore calling it anything is wrong in one sense or another."We can't find anything that's right so let's not do anything at all?" Have you considered anything other than Monk before arriving at this Go Nowhere Do Nothing Conclusion?
This thread is evidence that doing so does not provide any satisfactory result on either side. All the back-and-forth doesn't accomplish anything meaningful, making it pointless.
As far as I'm concerned, Paizo resorted to Monk because it's a grognard term that fellow grognards already associate with their given features, and finding one more fitting is a practically impossible task.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I also think that while paizo's sensitivity consultants have likely said terms are fine, it doesn't remove that that weird thing of "only imperialist bad guys would call culture x barbarians (in 1e lot of members of said culture have barbarian class)" dealio that is mostly moving away in 2e because npcs don't necessarily use pc class names anymore <_< Its similar to how I've seen more "monks that aren't class monks" as well
Lot of my opinion is similar to how I dislike paizo using "pantheism" as word for "pantheon worship" or polytheism :'D I'm very much about semantics being as clean and clear as possible.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
This thread is evidence that doing so does not provide any satisfactory result on either side. All the back-and-forth doesn't accomplish anything meaningful, making it pointless.I disagree.
This thread is evidence that those who are against change for the sake purely of being against change are so effective at shutting down conversations like this that we've never gotten to the point where we can even discuss a satisfactory result.
Disagree all you want, we could throw an entire dictionary at the problem and it simply would not work, to the point that Paizo would have to come up with a completely different word for the class that isn't referenced anywhere. Though to be clear, this is specifically about Monk, the Barbarian being renamed to Berserker does make much more sense.
Not sure how engaging with someone in posts, not reaching a consensus as to what constitutes a suitable name, and then saying "Screw this, we can't reach an agreement" counts as "shutting down conversations...where we can even discuss a satisfactory result," when the shutting down happens after they realize discussion bears nothing, and not before any discussion even begins.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would think of a Barbarian as someone who is great at fighting, but not because he can just jump into a state of murderous heightened emotion, but because he has not been trained by living in a city, and was born more in the wild lands, where the their people had to survive by being just as wild. There should be reaction penalties and some nervousness when a Barbarian is always surrounded by buildings in a city, and dealing with bigger merchants, etc. But hey, you know that might need some role-playing :)A Barbarian in Pathfinder is someone who Rages, not someone who is "dumb" or "savage" or "uneducated". DnD 3rd they couldn't read and write, pathfinder immediately axed that. You can be a college professor in Pathfinder who is a Barbarian. The name is misleading, the class identity is the rage.This is the core of it for me. Even moreso than "monk" and "druid", "barbarian" is a weird name that needlessly obfuscates the massive variety of concepts the class can actually cover. It's just "person who fights and can enter a state of murderous heightened emotion". It's just not a very good name for the way the class is played nowadays.
New thread idea: I think we should rename "Ranger" to "Barbarian".
|
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
The part of the arguments around the barbarian class I find kind of funny is, it's ok to have a class built around rage, but the name Barbarian is offensive.
During covid at work, a customer got raging upset when asked to put on a mask. So they when behind the checkout counter, pined the cashier against the cash register, tore off her mask, spit on her face, yelling I hope you get covid and die.
I witnessed some road rage last year driving to work around 10 am stopped at a stop light, a car hits another car going the wrong way, backs up to flea the accident hits another car, barely missing my car, then hits another car, next drives through a brick wall trying to get away, hits another car, kills a pedestrian, hits bus and finally stops after hitting a tree.
Absolutely barbaric don't have a better way to describe those incidents.
"brutal in a way that's considered entirely uncivilized."
Call the class barbarian or berserker. It's still a class based on rage, with a disregard for your own safety while doing the most damage you can. A different class name is not going to make rage more civilized.
I honestly don't think I understand what argument you're trying to make, Ashbourne. Rage is... bad, yeah. There are tons of bad, dangerous or evil things in PF2, but they aren't happening out of game.
Many are arguing that "barbarian" has an offensive history, and that's not really an argument I agree with, but your post doesn't work as a counter for "a slur shouldn't be in this game".
The alleged-slur's inclusion is an out-of-game situation. Berserker rage being a relationship red flag is an in-game situation.
Anyways, my issue with "barbarian" is mainly that it's a leftover from older editions, when the "barbarian" class had totally different mechanics. Nowadays, urban and intellectual barbarians are commonplace, and I'd like a class name that helps players infer this more easily.
Locked to deal with flags.