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Howdy. Our old party, plus a couple new-ish folk have just started Strength of Thousands. We are:
Investigator
Swashbuckler
Thaumaturge <-- me
Ranger (archery, not melee)
Druid
OracleI have a weapon as my first implement, leaning toward tome for 2nd. I'll take wizard for my free archetype. From there I have a couple questions:
1. Should I invest in the scroll thaumaturgy/esoterica feats? I'm not sure whether that's less important since I'll have my wizard dedication.
2. Should I add another dedication, or lean into the thaumaturge class feats?
2a. Sentinel: heavy armor & mighty bulwark
2b. Marshal: dread stance, etc. Do I really want more choices for my actions?Obviously there's interaction between those two questions. If I don't add another dedication, then I have more room for class feats, such as the scroll chain.
Thanks so much.
I think the first scroll feat is pretty strong in isolation. For one low level feat you gain a lot of versatility.
However, in your party you already have most of that versatility since you have a druid, oracle, and your wizard dedication. So the only tradition it opens up is occult, but there aren't that many occult things that are really so exclusively occult that you can't weasel your way in with another tradition.
The later scroll feats give you free scrolls of very low level scrolls, compared to your level when you take them. It's cute, but not staggeringly powerful.
Sentinel is an okay choice, although champion could also work. I'm currently playing a thaumaturge with liberator champion dedication, and the champion reaction works quite well. "An enemy hits a nearby friend" is pretty common as a melee class so it can be used often. And it often triggers when weapon implement reaction wouldn't have triggered.
Marshal: on the one hand you easily meet the requirements and have good social skills, so you'd be good at being a marshal. On the other hand, thaumaturge is really action hungry. I'd look more for archetypes with good passive abilities.
Does Strength of Thousands start at level 1 or level 10 - I can't remember off hand.
Scroll Thaumaturgy does lose quite a bit of its value if you can cast from scrolls through an archetype. Not all of its value though.
Taking archetype or class feats is a decision that is best left to you since you are the one actually playing the character. Either is a good option.
I don't have much opinion about armor, so I'll skip that one.
I like Marshal archetype if there isn't already a Bard in the group. And Thaumaturge is one of the classes that does Marshal the best.
Personally I am not enamored with Weapon Implement, but there is nothing wrong with it. So enjoy.
The one Thaumaturge that I am playing went with Amulet and Tome and I am rather happy with the results. I am playing along side of a Thaumaturge in a different game that went with Weapon and Mirror. Also seems to be working from what I am seeing.
People probably need a bit more info to know what to say. What weapon do you want to use? What implements do you plan on taking later on?
In general, Heavy armor proficiency is a must for any STR based Thaumaturge. As for me, I'd try to pick Diverse Lore, Scroll Thaumaturgy and Sympathetic Vulnerabilities on any Thaumaturge, but in your case, it is true that you will lose a bit of Scroll Thaumaturgy value, so just think of what spells you could probably want to cast that are not on tve arcane list and decide if it is worth it or not. As for the follow-up scroll feats, they are good, but Scroll Thaumaturgy can be enough if you just buy the scrolls.
Thaumaturge already has a lot of stuff to use their actions on, so I would worry more about patching weaknesses (ranged options for a STR based Thaumaturge, for example) than having more stuff to do.
Weapon is a really good implement, very straightforward. The second upgrade is really good too and being able to gain a +2 status bonus to hit for 1 action is bonkers.
On the other hand, thaumaturge is really action hungry. I'd look more for archetypes with good passive abilities.
From what I have seen, Thaumaturge doesn't often charge into the fray on the first round anyway.
◆ Draw Weapon
◆ Exploit Vulnerability
◆ ??
Why not Dread Marshal Stance there? The effect is passive after that.
Ngl, unless we are getting ambushed, we generally start combat with weapons already out.
So exploit, move, strike is how most first turns go as far as my group is concerned.
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On the other hand, thaumaturge is really action hungry. I'd look more for archetypes with good passive abilities.From what I have seen, Thaumaturge doesn't often charge into the fray on the first round anyway.
◆ Draw Weapon
◆ Exploit Vulnerability
◆ ??Why not Dread Marshal Stance there? The effect is passive after that.
In my case, I took Wand as my second implement. In one game it's been a total day-saver, in every other it took too many actions to use.
But there's also:
- drawing scrolls, casting them
- maybe casting Shield or using a Parry weapon trait
- attacking (my fullplate elf magus has a speed 400) and attacking some more
- intensify vulnerability
- throwing weapons
- demoralize (or bon mot, if it does something for a teammate)
- feint (you're a charisma primary class)
- recall knowledge (because sometimes you want to know something else and you have this super lore)
It's a little free-er than magus but you aren't starved for good third actions. I could squeeze out a marshal stance, sure, but to get deeper value out of marshal, I don't think I'd have the actions for some of the higher level feats.
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(By the by: I'm loving playing my thaumaturge. The class isn't nearly as complicated in practice as it looks on paper. But your damage gets a respectful nod from the barbarian and you have a lot to do in skill challenges.)
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Ngl, unless we are getting ambushed, we generally start combat with weapons already out.
So exploit, move, strike is how most first turns go as far as my group is concerned.
That makes sense if you are dungeon-delving. Less sense if you are doing an investigative or urban campaign. I find that in 3/4s of my PFS combats I have to draw a weapon first.
That's one of the advantages of the natural weapon thaumaturge - action economy. Too bad I have not made one of those yet!
Healing touch for lay on hands is also usually taken with champion archetype. You also usually follow champ reaction at 6 with sentinel at 8 for scaling. The true value of champion archetype is in lay on hands and the reaction with the heavy armor being convenient, but secondary.
That makes sense if you are dungeon-delving. Less sense if you are doing an investigative or urban campaign. I find that in 3/4s of my PFS combats I have to draw a weapon first.
Same thing applies in our case in urban settings except if we are negotiating with someone and things go wrong. If the party are the ones looking for trouble weapos will already be drawn in most cases.
Back to the original topic, Tome is a really good choice for your second Implement, and I would consider making it your main implement in the long run. The third upgrade is nuts. Since you are going for Flail I guess you are locked into Athletics. Tome will give you a lot of versatility every day.
If you are going for Weapon and Tome, you will probably be able to afford using actions from archetypes if you want, but even still I would advise you to stick to just Wizard and Sentinel, at least at low and mid levels.
So something like:
Lvl 1: Scroll Thaumaturgy
Lvl 2: Diverse Lore and Wizard Dedication
Lvl 4: Anything and Basic Spellcasting
Lvl 6: Sympathetic Vulnerability and Any Wizard Feat
Lvl 8: Anything and Sentinel Dedication
Lvl 10: Share Weakness and Mighty Bulwark
If you take one of the Sentinel Skill feats you could take your 3rd archetype at level 12. Besides, if you go for something similar to this, You should try to get Armor proficiency at level 3 with your general feat (or at 1 if you are a human).
Strength of Thousands is not a very combat heavy AP. I feel like my GM might have made it slightly less combat heavy, but that's still a thing people note about it. I'd be reluctant to commit too much into archetypes which are pure combat optimization when Thaumaturge has done nice versatility feats. I also think Regalia would be a stronger pick than weapon implements, for this specific game. Tome remains a good choice as always.
SoT also has a secondary leveling track which the player's guide doesn't really explain, so you will get additional feats beyond the free archetype. I'd recommend learning about those before committing your build too much.
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SoT only allows for wizard or druid dedications. Though a GM could relax that, particularly for the Magambya/halycon archetypes, which are even more fitting to the campaign and the Thaumaturge in particular.
SoT only allows for wizard or druid dedications. Though a GM could relax that, particularly for the Magambya/halycon archetypes, which are even more fitting to the campaign and the Thaumaturge in particular.
Personally, I threw that Wiz/Druid dedication only thing right out the window. I just instituted the free archetype system in its place, but required all the players to make sure that either their main class was a spell caster of some sort, or that they took enough dedication feats with their normal feats (or free feats) to eventually become a 6th level spell caster. This is a magic 'school' after all.
We ended up with:
Bard (Maestro) / Beastmaster Dedication (Free Archetype: Sorcerer(fey))
Wizard (Transmuter) / Focused on Wizard feats (Free Archetype: Druid)
Witch (Pacts) / Focused on Witch feats (Free Archetype: Eldritch Archer)
Rogue (Eldritch Trickster) / Sorcerer (fey) Dedication (Free Archetype: Druid)
Monk / Halcyon Dedication (Free Archetype: Druid)
As you can see, most of them focused on Primal magic for their secondary casting (except the witch). There are three of them with animal companions (the Bard has two), and the three druid dedicators are all avid wildshapers.
They haven't struggled too much in the campaign and I sure haven't pulled any punches. They are quite intelligent and spend their large amounts of down time crafting all manner of consumable items that get them out of pretty much any situation. It is an absolute pleasure to run the game for them.