As the title really.
Because they aren’t designed to be used as weapons, I feel like objects inappropriately used like that should take damage too.
Body Bludgeon is an extreme example of what I mean.
It wouldn't be unreasonable to houserule that objects being used to damage something with hardness greater than themselves would take damage from being used if that damage overcomes its own hardness. Since people don't tend to have hardness... being used to hit other people with themselves does hurt.
Of course. Physics! I should have thought of that. Thank you.
So long as the improvised weapon is of a stronger material than the target of the attack, it‘s easiest to just say it takes negligible damage itself.
But where the improvised weapon is of a comparable strength material to the target of the attack, we could consider both to take a portion of the damage.
And where the improvised weapon is of a weaker material, the improvised weapon will take the damage.
Because I don’t want this to be too complex to deal with, I’m gonna have a think about how an overly simplified rule could be worded.
Just remembered that wooden clubs are a thing, so started looking up regular weapon wear and tear.
There are a few other threads about it, but basically it is assumed that the weapon can withstand the damage it causes and that PCs do routine maintenance when they can.
So if a wooden club can be assumed by the rules to survive combat, an improvised weapon could too. Any material too soft to survive probably doesn’t have an existing weapon analogue so couldn’t be an improvised weapon anyway.
This is going to be a GM’s call. Some items will be more likely to take damage where other will easily survive. An iron crowbar is unlikely to be damages, but a clay pitcher is probably going to be broken.
The closest I can think of to this is the kineticist's telekinetic blast. In that case the object and the target take the same damage, though the item's hardness should still apply.
I’d look at the hardness and HP of the items in question… if the item has a hardness of 1 or 0 then it should be subject to damage when used as a weapon… even just simply 1d2 damage per attack would suffice. A glass vase might survive one attack with its 1HP and hardness 1 but it could just as easily shatter into a million pieces on that one attack two. If you want to simulate more realism, go with 1d3 damage. Though I’d just as easily assume that all improvised weapons suffer a flat 1d2 damage reduced by their hardness when used to attack, as a result many objects will never actually take damage and the ones that realistically should break will break… if you want to go for even more realism, you could reduce an improvised weapons hardness by the hardness of the the targets armor causing things like stone and wood to eventually break when used to attack someone with sturdy metal armor. (A 2inch thick branch would break after 10-20 swings against someone in metal armor)
Meh. A 2" thick branch is a club. If you're not going to have a club break from hitting someone in metal armor it doesn't make much sense to have the branch break either.
In general there is no specific rule that using improvised weapons causes them to take damage, just as there is no specific rule that using actual weapons causes them to take damage.
In reality weapons do require maintenance and sharpening periodically to be maintain their effectiveness and to keep them from breaking.
But aside from items that are known to be fragile such as glass, clay, thin wood, etc I would say it's not worth worrying about. Even your average wooden chair is probably good enough to be swung without worrying about breaking within the context of the game. Except for the cinematic purpose of it breaking leaving you with just one of the long chair legs which you continue to use to pummel people with.
At the end of the day, always ask if a rule your trying to add to the game makes it more fun for players or not and that is a good gauge about whether or not it's worth it.
This is basically what I told my DM.
The rules assume the weapon is more durable than the target and that wear and tear is dealt with through routine maintenance during rest periods.
If the target is of a significantly stronger material than the weapon, whilst it isn’t covered by the rules it wouldn’t be hard to rule that the damage is done to the weapon instead.
So attacking a stone boulder using a large wooden stick with vital strike and shikigami style will do oooodles of d6 damage… to the stick.
By the rules, it doesn't even do that iGMYT.
Weapons don't take damage from use (even improvised weapons) unless there is some special effect at play. For example the fragile trait on weapons:
Fragile: Weapons and armor with the fragile quality cannot take the beating that sturdier weapons can. A fragile weapon gains the broken condition if the wielder rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll with the weapon. If a fragile weapon is already broken, the roll of a natural 1 destroys it instead. Masterwork and magical fragile weapons and armor lack these flaws unless otherwise noted in the item description or the special material description. If a weapon gains the broken condition in this way, that weapon is considered to have taken damage equal to half its hit points +1. This damage is repaired either by something that addresses the effect that granted the weapon the broken condition (like quick clear in the case of firearm misfires or the Field Repair feat) or by the repair methods described in the broken condition. When an effect that grants the broken condition is removed, the weapon regains the hit points it lost when the broken condition was applied. Damage done by an attack against a weapon (such as from a sunder combat maneuver) cannot be repaired by an effect that removes the broken condition. Source: PRG:UC.
There's also specific spells and creatures that might cause damage to your weapon. For example:
Shatter Weapons (Ex)
Whenever a character strikes a caryatid column with a weapon (magical or nonmagical), the weapon takes 3d6 points of damage. Apply the weapon’s hardness normally. Weapons that take any amount of damage in excess of their hardness gain the broken condition.
But outside of these kinds of special effects, weapons don't be default take damage, including improvised weapons.
If your GM wanted to make things a little worse for players while being reasonable, he could rule that improvised weapons all have the fragile quality.
Some weapons like club and staff do not have an actual GP cost. These weapons are usually so usually just common items that are able to be used as weapons. You might need to do some slight modification to the weapon, but they do not require a craft skill to make. You might need to cut off a few branches and maybe wrap something to give it a better grip, but that is about it. These types of weapons are essentially already improvised weapons and are not subject to breaking any more than other weapons.
As Claxton pointed out the only rule for weapons breaking when wielded is the fragile property. I could see some improvised weapons being considered fragile. But keep in mind that most items in the middle ages were better constructed than modern times. Modern materials and techniques allow us to make items that are lighter than they were in the past. Furniture was usually made out of hardwood not pressboard and a log of cooking equipment was cast iron. If you have ever used a cast iron skillet you will laugh at the idea of it being fragile.
Honestly wielding a cast iron skillet effectively as a weapon would take most people two hands, because it's so darn heavy that you're not going to swing it expertly with one hand. But yeah, it is far from fragile.
The problem is that normal weapons also get damaged during combat, but the game doesn't really cover that at all either.
This game isn't a reality simulator. Some things just aren't worth adding.
One thing to consider is what that an improvised weapon may after being used in combat not is able to be used for its original purpose, but still be able to be used as a weapon. I can see a coper kettle being bent when used to beat someone over the head, but still being able to be used to continue beating the person with.
I agree with Claxon that this is not something that really needs to be worried about.
One thing to consider is what that an improvised weapon may after being used in combat not is able to be used for its original purpose, but still be able to be used as a weapon. I can see a coper kettle being bent when used to beat someone over the head, but still being able to be used to continue beating the person with.
I agree with Claxon that this is not something that really needs to be worried about.
True… clubbing someone over the head with a glass bottle might shatter the bottle making it ill suited to hold liquid, and a poor choice of bludgeoning weapon, but it can still be used to stab and slash… of course glass bottles are surprisingly hard to shatter like that too, you can easily get several good smacks in on someones skull before one would actually break…
So effectively because the rules aren’t gonna list all potential improvised weapons, it’s easier to just leave it up to the GM to determine if the fragile quality should apply.
E.g. hitting someone with a bottle
And if using an improvised weapon that could reasonably be deformed, the GM can rule that, while still useable as an improvised weapon, it’s no longer viable for its original purpose.
Likewise, even for regular weapons it’s up the the GM to determine if the weapon is being used in such a way that it should take the damage rather than the target.
E.g. trying to crack open a stone boulder with a wooden club
The only other routes to damage weapons are sundering and special abilities/effects.
IMO, no it's not left up to the GM. Just don't do it, is my stance.
Like ruling an improvised weapon has the fragile quality is one thing, anything beyond that is too deep in the weeds in my opinion.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have to agree with Claxon on this. With the exception of obviously fragile items like porcelain vase breaking use a more narrative approach. Anything more than declaring improvised items as fragile is going to bog down the game with unneeded detail. Instead of adding rules and complications use this to improve the game. Having the chair explode into splinters as the character takes out his last foe is a lot more fun than keeping track of the HP of every item.