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So effectively because the rules aren’t gonna list all potential improvised weapons, it’s easier to just leave it up to the GM to determine if the fragile quality should apply.
E.g. hitting someone with a bottle

And if using an improvised weapon that could reasonably be deformed, the GM can rule that, while still useable as an improvised weapon, it’s no longer viable for its original purpose.

Likewise, even for regular weapons it’s up the the GM to determine if the weapon is being used in such a way that it should take the damage rather than the target.
E.g. trying to crack open a stone boulder with a wooden club

The only other routes to damage weapons are sundering and special abilities/effects.

This is basically what I told my DM.

The rules assume the weapon is more durable than the target and that wear and tear is dealt with through routine maintenance during rest periods.

If the target is of a significantly stronger material than the weapon, whilst it isn’t covered by the rules it wouldn’t be hard to rule that the damage is done to the weapon instead.

So attacking a stone boulder using a large wooden stick with vital strike and shikigami style will do oooodles of d6 damage… to the stick.

Just remembered that wooden clubs are a thing, so started looking up regular weapon wear and tear.

There are a few other threads about it, but basically it is assumed that the weapon can withstand the damage it causes and that PCs do routine maintenance when they can.

So if a wooden club can be assumed by the rules to survive combat, an improvised weapon could too. Any material too soft to survive probably doesn’t have an existing weapon analogue so couldn’t be an improvised weapon anyway.

Of course. Physics! I should have thought of that. Thank you.

So long as the improvised weapon is of a stronger material than the target of the attack, it‘s easiest to just say it takes negligible damage itself.

But where the improvised weapon is of a comparable strength material to the target of the attack, we could consider both to take a portion of the damage.

And where the improvised weapon is of a weaker material, the improvised weapon will take the damage.

Because I don’t want this to be too complex to deal with, I’m gonna have a think about how an overly simplified rule could be worded.

As the title really.

Because they aren’t designed to be used as weapons, I feel like objects inappropriately used like that should take damage too.

Body Bludgeon is an extreme example of what I mean.

I’m beginning to see Possession as “puppetry from within”.

You can make your puppet do a Power Attack, so long as the puppet has the strength for it and you have the knowledge (the feat) of how to do it.

The puppet is still not “you” though, so anything that requires something of you that is not a physical action targets you rather than the body.
So things like Deific Obedience would look at your HD rather than the HD of the body you are inhabiting. Your deity isn’t fooled!

Effects on a Possessed person are interesting because it depends how they are targeting. The host has been suppressed, but still can use their senses… so Colour Spray and Prismatic Spray should affect them. Magic Jar would actually be better for the host in this instance, since they would be elsewhere.

This has been really interesting! Thank you all for your help with this!

Thank you Diego Rossi. That’s how I’d want to rule it too.

I’ve now been shown the Familiar rules which prove that you can have hit points independent of hit die, so there is precedent that we can’t assume we’d get them during Possession.

What adds more fuel to this confusing fire is something Redditors have pointed out: the spell doesn’t say that you count as having anything that the body retains.
- so if you have the power attack feat and possess something with strength 11, could you still power attack because it looks at your strength and not the body’s?
- likewise, if you had used a belt of strength to qualify for the power attack feat but then lost the belt and so have an inactive feat, when you possess a creature with strength 20 would you still not be able to use your feat because “you” still don’t qualify?

In essence should we simply view Possession as sort of like a Dominate Monster where you control the creature in first person?

Can we circle back to the Hit Die issue?

It has been suggested to me that because the spell doesn’t specifically call out that either you or the body retain your hit die, that it is assumed that you keep yours.
This feels counter intuitive to me as this means a Shadow Demon could possess a Balor and make it susceptible to Circle of Death.

I have a question. It says in the spell description that its possible for your body to die while you are possessing someone else. Is there anyway to revive your body so you don't die after the possession spell ends?

That’s a good question. How can you Raise Dead on your corpse if your soul is currently busy possessing someone?

Well, the spell does say that you keep your level, class, and base save bonuses. So the impression I get is you use your level (or hit dice) and saves, but you use the body's hit points.

Hi OmniMage.

Thank you for your reply.
“Level” and HD aren’t one and the same, as you can have more HD than levels (eg. Monsters with class levels).
So because the spell says you retain your level, doesn’t mean you retain your HD.

Hi all

Can I get some clarification on the Possession rules, specifically regarding Hit Die?

The Possession rules make clear that the body retains its hit points.
However, the rules never mention “Hit Die” for either side.

So my question is, do you count as having your original HD or the HD of the creature you are possessing?
For example, what happens if you are hit by Colour or Prismatic Spray?

As you say, this item making spells that require "humanoid creatures" work on undead is a great benefit!
Looks like I may need to consider getting the Mask after all. I need that Reduce Person!

Thank you so much for your response.

Can someone explain the benefit of this mask for undead?

Why does this mask call out Alter Self? What does this mask allow Alter Self to do for an undead that it couldn't already?

It looks beyond the scope of the mask to allow you to target an undead with spells that require a "living creature", so then what benefit does this mask actually give?

I imagine if you had an undead Drow you could use Ancestral Regression on it... but this seems so niche it feels like I'm missing something.

Agreed! From other uses of ephemeral on aonprd it looks like they often use it when they want to say ethereal but don’t want the specific condition.

I suspect that, because the string is only nearly invisible, the writer of that spell might have been aiming for “near-ethereal”.

“Damaged as a physical object” I’m guessing was an attempt to get across that it doesn’t have the full qualities of something incorporeal or ethereal. So if you can hit it using magical force then you can treat it as a normal physical object for that hit.

Thanks for your help Diego!

Hmmm… my last point would mean you couldn’t use Flesh Puppets in even a small crowd and you’d have to keep constant control of a horde to ensure their strings wouldn’t break on each other either.

This doesn’t seem right…

Hi all

Hopefully this will be another quick one.

With Flesh Puppet and Flesh Puppet Horde it says you are connected to your zombies by an ephemeral string that has hardness 0 and 1 hp. It also says…

The ephemeral string can pass through physical barriers, but not barriers of magical force, and it can be damaged as though it were a physical object.

I don’t understand this. How can it pass through physical barriers but also be damaged as a physical object?

Does this mean the string can pass through walls… but if I drop a wall on the string it will break?

Would it be best to think of this from the view of the string rather than as an observer?
i.e. if the string is moving it can pass through barriers but if the barrier is moving it will hit and damage the string

How are other people running this?
Am I missing something stupidly obvious?

I’m gonna stick with the analogy of scrambled egg.

Feeblemind is a whisk. It turns up, scrambles the egg (brain) and then leaves.
The egg is still scrambled after the whisk is gone and the only way to unscramble it is to use the spells listed under Feeblemind.

A Headband of Vast Intelligence is (stretching the analogy here) an extra yolk that sits on top of the scramble. It can’t fix the scramble but it is still a bonus that makes things a little better.

Ahhh, now I understand.
That’s a crazy powerful spell! More so than I thought it was.

Thank you for your help!

Hey all
I’m sure someone has already answered this but my Googlefu seems to keep coming up with non-Pathfinder answers.

Feeblemind is instantaneous and sets your Intelligence score 1.
It is then done. There is no permanent magic on you that can be suppressed by anti-magic. It has just come in, scrambled your brain and then left you drooling.

If someone comes along and puts a Headband of Vast Intelligence on you, surely this would increase your score whilst the headband remains worn.

Why do people say it wouldn’t? Am I missing something?

Oh crikey.
So I have read up on many, many, many threads on it and I can see why there was much confusion.

The long and the short of it seems to be that wielding requires you to actively use the weapon, not just hold it threateningly.

SKR has also posted specifically in response to the Menacing ability too.

Menacing says "wielder," so that says to me "the character with the wielding weapon is trying to attack with it on his turn, not merely holding it while making other attacks."

Thanks for your help Taja!

After much Google-fu I’ve found the FAQ of which you speak, and also a thread on the relevant issue.

I will have to have a thorough read after work…

I was debating whether to necro the Martial Arts Handbook - handwraps thread but decided against it as I'm guessing this is a little niche...

Example Scenario:
+1 Menacing Handwraps on a character with two claws and an Amulet of Mighty Fists +2
(assume the character is flanking)

Notes:
- The Handwraps do not work on Natural Attacks, only Unarmed Attacks.
- The Menacing ability does not require you to make an attack, just wield it.

Hand wraps keep your hands free for use with anything else (manipulation, holding items, wielding items). However, as soon as one hand is holding or wielding an item, it is no longer free to do an unarmed strike

- The Handwraps specifically say "A character can’t benefit from both handwraps and other items that provide enhancement bonuses or weapon special abilities (such as an amulet of mighty fists) on the same attack."

So...
1. Does this mean a clawed hand that isn't currently making a claw attack would trigger Menacing?

2. The claw that is currently making an attack would only benefit from the Amulet and not the Handwraps - but, although it would not itself be Menacing, would it benefit from the effect of Menacing that the other non-attacking claw is triggering?

3. Effectively, can I swipe with a claw while shaking my fist Menacingly, and then swap hands between attacks to maintain the benefit?

That could certainly be useful for moulding the corpse into the new shape, but I suspect the "cannot create material of great intrinsic value" would cover not giving the new creature a soul.

After reading more of the lore regarding souls, I think the only way I can create a new soul from fragments stolen from other souls is to release them into the First World to form as Fey, and then steal the Fey's whole soul.

So I think for the soul aspect, I'm going to need to come up with some other idea.

Off topic but interesting...

Step 2.5:
While the corpse is complete but not a living body yet, it counts as an object.
Can I use Craft Wondrous Item to give the corpse SLAs? I suspect the corpse would then counts as a Magic Item and not a corpse, so be an invalid target for step 3 :(

Hey folks

Bit of an odd one for you.

I'm trying to see if there is a way to create new life from scratch using spells and magic items.
I've got few ideas, but have ran into a bit of a wall.

Step 1:
Collect together a suitable amount of biomass. Eg. corpses, plants, insects (dead), other meat

Step 2:
Use the Fabricate spell to craft a completely new corpse from the biomass. [Is this spell capable of this?]
Alternatively, is there a way to create the new corpse using Necrocraft and then just kill it after so as to just have the fully formed corpse (will need some repair) without it being undead?

Step 3:
Cast False Resurrection on the crafted corpse and let the duration elapse.
This specifically leaves the body "alive but soulless (like that created by clone)"

Step 4:
Somehow create a soul??????????
I know you can Craft Ooze to create a living creature from scratch and then steal it's soul, but I'm hoping to do this with spells and magic items only.
Is there a way to steal a fragment of a soul (like in Soulbound Dolls) but not the whole soul?
Can I use Soul Transfer on an attuned Black Soul Shard? Probably not...

Step 5:
Cast Parasitic Soul to transfer the new soul into the crafted body.
Is there an easier but still permanent method of doing this, since the body is currently uninhabited but alive?

Step 6:
Tinker with the newly created being's memory using Modify Memory.
Depending on how the soul was obtained we may need to cast Amnesia first.

As you can see, there are definitely some issues with this, especially Step 4.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks for your help!

Now to design a hat with a pugwampi stuck to the top...

So, if I had it in a tiny barred cage around my neck, it would work but only against things in front of me since my body would be blocking the aura for people approaching from behind...

I suppose, right up until an area affect kills it!

Hi all

Can someone confirm two points for me?

a) If you change the size of a creature that has an aura, does the aura size change?
b) Does the spell Binding suppress auras?

Basically in a recent campaign I used minimus containment on a pugwampi and then wore him in a necklace to use his aura for my own benefit (I had a luck blade giving me a luck bonus so was unaffected). Very quickly this felt game breaking and I was sure I must have gone wrong somewhere.

If this is possible, are there any other creatures this would be a good trick for?

"Spanner-In-The-Works, I choose you!"

Why Split Major Hex? Why?!
Why couldn't you be like Split Hex and specifically state "Witch level" instead?

Does this mean if I have a Caster Level boost that lasts at least 24 hrs (eg: +1 from Orange Prism Ioun Stone and +5 from attunement to a major Ley Line) I can take this feat early?

If only Corset of Dire Witchcraft could allow us to take this Feat even earlier...

Those are worded badly. Hexes are supernatural abilities, and don't have caster levels. It should have said something like "the witch counts as being 2 level higher for the purpose of ..."

That matters because "casting" requires caster levels, and only spells and SLA's are cast, and they have certain limitations that SU's do not.

Even when an SU emulates a spell it will say something similar to treat your character level as your caster level to determine how effective the spell is, but it still is not giving you actual caster levels. It is just letting you know how to determine effects of the ability that are normally decided by actual caster levels.

Now, some SU's grant SLA's. I would say those are cast since you are actually using an SLA, not just emulating one.

I agree 100% and will be approaching my GM with that exact wording for the Corset.

Think of it this way, all hexes have a caster level equal to your witch level, so the corset increases any one of your hexes as if you were two levels higher, and the coven hex lets you use aid another to increase another witches caster level for both spells and hexes by one (or vice versa).

Yep, this is correct. However that still only affects hexes that specifically mention caster level.

As quoted in my previous post, the rules say that class abilities (such as hexes) are based on class levels unless otherwise noted.

Whilst caster levels are initially derived from class levels, it is still a separate term to class level.

So, unless specifically mentioned, we must assume general references to "level" in class abilities relate solely to levels in that class. That's how it works for other classes and the witch is no exception.

Sussed it and thought I'd share for anyone else hunting an answer.

As touched upon in the multiclassing section of the rules, hexes are based on the class level of the witch unless otherwise stated.

The only time caster level comes into play for hexes is when the hex imitates a spell with a strength (not duration) dependent on caster level (i.e. cure light wounds and bestow curse).

The odd one out is Dire Prophecy which doesn't imitate a spell but is dependent on caster level, but given what it does I'm happy as is!

So Corset of Dire Witchcraft is pretty poor and the "Dire" aspect is really only useful for Harrowing Curse and Dire Prophecy.

Coven is awesome regardless, so my only issue is that it probably shouldn't say "all" hexes.

Case closed.

Hi all

I'm pretty sure the answer to this question will be something like "RAW no, but RAI is unclear".

Basically I'm stumped by the Corset of Dire Witchcraft and the Coven hex. Both mention caster level when it comes to hexes, but it seems like the number of hexes that actually use caster level are few and far between.

I've seen that this has been brought up before, but I couldn't see anyone raising the Coven hex's mention of caster level and that it specifically says "all" of her hexes.

That said, I've also spotted that some hexes specifically call out "class level" whereas other just say "level". Aura of Purity even says both "level" and then "class level".

- Are we sure they aren't supposed to be different? Is it perhaps saying "level" the same way spell descriptions have been shortened to say "level" when they mean "caster level"?

Just to be clear, it's only the functional elements of the hex's I think may be related to caster level. I'm fully aware that the DCs are strictly 1/2 "witch level" aka "class level".