Nanocyte's Gear Array and Manifold Array

[JiCi]

I keep thinking that the -4 and -8 penalties were applied to the Major Forms' own levels, like for a 15th-level Nanocyte:

- Primary Gear Array with item of maximum 15th level.
- Secondary Gear Array with item of maximum 11th level (-4).
- Tertiary Gear Array with item of maximum 7th level (-8).

Is it the case, or does the level penalty only apply to the Cloud and Sheath Arrays, being the only arrays which level up?

[Milo v3]

I'd put forward that no where does it suggest that it would apply, since the level only matters for adding things to your known forms.

Which also aligns with how the "if you start above level 1" section has you put all your forms at your highest levels. Seems very unlikely they would have it so starting at levels above 1 would try to leave you with no ability to use them with manifold.

It also makes the gear array a lot more functional, since otherwise it is sort of useless in a manifold slot.

[JiCi]

In our discussion on another topic, some people believe that the level penalty applies to the Gear Array... and suggested me to make a separate topic, with a FAQ request.

[Gaulin]

I always read secondary gear array as being able to create things 4 levels lower than your nanocyte level, because of this text in gear array;

To select a piece of equipment as one of your gear array’s major
or minor forms, its level must be equal to or lower than your
nanocyte level.

And since you use your nanocyte level -4 for your created secondary array, that would be equipment 4 levels lower you create.

[Milo v3]

Gaulin wrote:

I always read secondary gear array as being able to create things 4 levels lower than your nanocyte level, because of this text in gear array;

To select a piece of equipment as one of your gear array’s major
or minor forms, its level must be equal to or lower than your
nanocyte level.

And since you use your nanocyte level -4 for your created secondary array, that would be equipment 4 levels lower you create.

For me the friction with this is.

1) selecting requirement as one of your major or minor forms isn't part of forming the array, it's part of level up/character creation.

2) For context it says you use the -4 for calculating the effects of the array. Selecting forms isn't one of the effects.

[Kishmo]

I agree with Gaulin's reading. Manifold array tells us:
"your secondary array calculates its effects using your nanocyte level – 4"
which pretty strongly implies "hey, make a secondary gear array as if you were a level 4 Nanocyte." A level 4 nanocyte couldn't choose (and therefore couldn't form) an item with item level 7 because, as pointed out, "To select a piece of equipment as one of your gear array’s major or minor forms, its level must be equal to or lower than your nanocyte level."

The whole bit about choosing forms at highever level is a simplification (literally, "for simplicity") just to provide guidance on how to arrive at a gear array choice list without going through the manual step-by-step level up process. That simplification isn't there to let you have two lvl 7 items with manifold array.

[JiCi]

My issue is that the Gear Array... doesn't have any effect related to the Nanocyte's level... at all. Be at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th or 19th level, the Gear Array gets nothing, unlike Cloud and Sheath.

If you could form 2 items at 7th level and 3 forms at 15th, then fine, the Manifold Array's level restriction would apply, but right now, there's nothing to block.

[Zwordsman]

I mean the gear array is free equipment that scales with your level. So I'd argue that is the benefit and why it doesn't get something specific at those levels as it is always growing to an extent.

So, not ideal but it does mean if you want to use it with as a secondary you'll have to plan for it. Same as the other abilties. Have to plan for using at a lower power. Meaning keeping a choice lower if need be.

[Garretmander]

JiCi wrote:

My issue is that the Gear Array... doesn't have any effect related to the Nanocyte's level... at all. Be at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th or 19th level, the Gear Array gets nothing, unlike Cloud and Sheath.

If you could form 2 items at 7th level and 3 forms at 15th, then fine, the Manifold Array's level restriction would apply, but right now, there's nothing to block.

The gear array does have an effect related to your nanocyte level though? Well kinda sorta.

Gear array wrote:

At 1st level, you know how to create two major forms and three minor forms. You learn a new minor form at 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter; you learn a new major form at 3rd level, 5th level, and every 4 levels thereafter. When you gain a nanocyte level, you can replace one of your major forms with a new major form and one of your minor forms with a new minor form.

When creating a nanocyte character at higher than 1st level, for simplicity, you can choose major forms by choosing one form using your nanocyte level, the next form using your nanocyte level – 1, the next using your nanocyte level – 2, and so on. Any extra forms use a nanocyte level of 1. You can choose minor forms the same way.

I would argue that calculating it's effects as if you were a lower level is the similar to creating a nanocyte of X level where you can only use the major forms of the lower level.

Though, I wouldn't say that is clear cut, and it's perhaps worth a FAQ click.

[JiCi]

Garretmander wrote:

The gear array does have an effect related to your nanocyte level though? Well kinda sorta.

"Well kinda sorta." That's the issue, it's not that clear... The way you obtain forms is separate from the Gear Array, as it doesn't follow the same level progression and rules.

Garretmander wrote:

I would argue that calculating it's effects as if you were a lower level is the similar to creating a nanocyte of X level where you can only use the major forms of the lower level.

Though, I wouldn't say that is clear cut, and it's perhaps worth a FAQ click.

The problem is that you can paint yourself in a corner by having too many forms at your level, NOT being able to use 2 or 3 Arrays.

The nanocyte was already complicated during the playtest... Does it need to be even MORE complicated now?

[Ravien999]

I think this is one that as the rules read, I believe it makes sense for it to not impact, but it seems to be at odds with the rest of the class design, which I believe is where the impasse lies.

Needing to keep forms at level-8 would actually make the nanocyte extremely difficult to manage as you level. The ability doesn't come into place until 7th level, at which point you need 3rd level major forms (we're generally not using minors in combat)

You shouldn't have any if you're optimizing your forms - aka swapping your lowest level up to the top. If you do optimize, you don't get a level-4 form until 14th level, when you have major forms of 10, 11, 12, 13, 13, and 14. And at 20th level, you only get down to -5.

The only way to make secondary/tertiary work with level limits and *not* impact your power level is to "leave behind" a form every time you get a new one starting at 3th - but this means you had to plan ahead and make that form a good alt-choice, which you likely weren't doing at low levels. The theory behind this is lengthy, so I'll hide it behind a spoiler tag

neg 4 and 8 form theorycraft:

This means at 3rd level your new form should be a level 3 aug (because level-4 weapon forms are not combat efficient) that we likely won't use until it becomes your secondary form at 7th. At 5th, your new for is a level 5, to become your secondary at 9th. At 9th and 13th, same difference.

When you hit 15th, you need -8. That would be 7th - but we only have a 3rd and 5th at this point. Which means we can get rid of that 3rd and replace it starting at 9th *IF* we only want two good secondary choices.

At 8th level, if we're following this logic, we've got two major "weapon" forms at 8th and 7th. And two major "cybernetics" at 3rd and 5th. At 9th level, you recall, we get a new form we need to apportion as a new secondary - if we want choices. We have to start thinking "do we want to have a good new combat toy, or upgrade a secondary?"

Let's go with the logic that we only ever want two optimized primary combat forms and see how that works out. So we get a new form - a 9th level combat item - and we change our 7th level combat form to a 7th level aug - we gave up the ability to have a power increase for that - and can't use it for a secondary for two levels, but we're keeping this one for a tertiary, so we don't want it to be a 9th level.

But the problem is we've stunted our growth. We can't get rid of that 3rd level aug without killing our power level until new forms come out - and now we're in the levels where a power increase is much more exponential from level to level.

This brings us to level 13 - we have two weapons at 11th and 12th, and three augs at 3rd, 5th, and 7th. We get a new form and can swap one. The new form, obviously, is a new weapon at 13th, and then... do we swap that level 3 up? or do we get a new now-optimized secondary choice? or plan for a secondary for when we get tertiary? Lets go with the latter - that's maximum power when we get to 15th. So swap that 11th for an 11th aug.

At 15th this leaves us with two weapons at 15th and 14th, and four augs, 3, 5, 7 for our tertiary, and 11 for our secondary. (and by comparison, the 15th level optimized form ignoring the manifold level limit is at 11, 12, 13, 13, 14, and 15, and likely mix-and-matching across those levels)

At 17th with a new slot, you know what, we'll just keep that old weapon and we finally get to swap that 3rd level up, because at that point its more of an eyesore than a weapon 3 levels lower. So 3rd becomes a 13 - since most of our stuff is tertiary at this point.

So we end up with, optimizing our combat efficacy and also allowing some aug switches for off-forms, combat forms 20, 19, 17, and aug forms 13, 11, 7, and 5. I hope that you made good choices leveling up, because you don't have time to swap them out!

Because of how much this hamstrings your ability to choose effective forms, it makes more sense to just let gear array be "the odd one out" - because the amount of forms you can have at once is going to be at odds enough with your normally occupied augment slots, trying to make them keep up with the power curve is just another difficulty on top of that.

I don't think this is really "Errata" worthy - but definitely deserving of a clarifying FAQ. I think requiring the form summoned be in that negative bracket puts an undue weight on a class that already requires an incredible amount of system mastery.

[JiCi]

That's how I would rework Gear Array:
1st: 1 major or minor form
3rd: 1 major and 1 minor / 2 minor
7th: 2 major and 1 minor / 1 major and 2 minor
11th: 2 major and 2 minor / 1 major and 3 minor / 4 minor
15th: 3 major and 2 minor / [trading 1 major for 1 minor]
19th: 3 major and 3 minor / [trading 1 major for 1 minor]

NOW the downscaled level adjustment makes some sense.