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Maybe this has been covered, but I find the message boards here quite hard to meaningfully search.
Compared to both what a Lich can do as an NPC and all the powers available to the other archetypes, the Lich just seems "meh". No paralyzing touch (just a crappy slow) and a much reduced fear aura at level 18. Yes mages can do a couple of extra things, but that is not worth dying over. And there is a Feat tax to protect your soul cage which is the whole point of being a Lich. No resistances at all. Skeletons get more love.
Liches should be the pinnacle of being undead, up there with Vampires.
Anyone have homebrew ideas?
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That is because they are balanced for being played alongside other standard player characters.
People have complained about such things regarding various ancestries too. For example, Sprite ancestry doesn't give at level 1 (and sometimes not ever) all the cool stuff that a Sprite NPC gets.
Anyone have homebrew ideas?
You could post a request on the homebrew forum.
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That is because they are balanced for being played alongside other standard player characters.
People have complained about such things regarding various ancestries too. For example, Sprite ancestry doesn't give at level 1 (and sometimes not ever) all the cool stuff that a Sprite NPC gets.
Anyone have homebrew ideas?You could post a request on the homebrew forum.
I'll do that.
However, the other undead types get all sorts of powers, including paralayizng touch. The Lich gets nothing. Basically the soul cage. That does not seem balanced at all in a game where by level 12 living characters can just be resurrected.
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Drain soul cage is actually pretty lit; as is getting true seeing and spell turning as a spell like ability.
Tbh though, as a PC, having no penalty for dying is actually pretty potent; as it lets you do extremely risky stuff with no prospect of punishment; that power is a lot more potent on thr player side of the screen
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Drain soul cage is actually pretty lit; as is getting true seeing and spell turning as a spell like ability.
Tbh though, as a PC, having no penalty for dying is actually pretty potent; as it lets you do extremely risky stuff with no prospect of punishment; that power is a lot more potent on thr player side of the screen
Bleh. Immortality is weak. All it let's you do is keep playing, which you'd be able to do anyways (unless your GM/table is in the habit of throwing out players whose characters die).
"Marcie, get out of here. YOU'RE DEAD! You don't exist anymore."
The problem is, ultimately being a lich needs to be balanced against other options players have access to.
Regarding paralysis and the ghoul archetype, honestly it may be a little too good compared to others.
Regarding paralysis and the ghoul archetype, honestly it may be a little too good compared to others.
And whether that is the case or not, the PC Ghoul Archetype paralysis ability (a level 8 upgrade feat of a level 6 feat) is quite a bit weaker than the actual level 1 Ghoul's paralysis ability since the PC Archetype version has a 24 hour lockout preventing using it again on the same creature.
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It's interesting, because immortality is theoretically such a big play with a lot of potential. You're suddenly very hard to keep down in a way other PCs just aren't, but at the same time in a typical day-to-day adventuring cycle, Lich Dedication is a level 12 feat for basic undead benefits, which is kind of underwhelming. And while the soul cage keeps you coming back it does potentially leave you out of commission for a while.
Looking at the rest of the feats, we have some that upgrade your soul cage, one that improves your unarmed strikes and upgrades your undead benefits, magic sense, a fear aura.
Drain Soul Cage and Spell Gem stand out, but one of them is wizard only and the other is an uncommon feat with no access.
There's not a lot that really screams 'powerful undead spellcaster' otherwise.
It really comes down to how much you value the potential immortality, which is pretty thematic at least.
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I will agree that Lich archetype probably could use a few more feats as options.
It interesting comparing it to Ghoul, which appears to have more than any other undead archetype and seems exceptionally potent.
And the skeleton ancestry seems to get a good bit of love.
I wonder, for those interested would pretending a skeleton with the rejuvenation token was a lich work well enough to fulfill the fantasy?
Skeleton ancestry isn't bad.
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Drain soul cage is actually pretty lit; as is getting true seeing and spell turning as a spell like ability.
Tbh though, as a PC, having no penalty for dying is actually pretty potent; as it lets you do extremely risky stuff with no prospect of punishment; that power is a lot more potent on thr player side of the screen
Bleh. Immortality is weak. All it let's you do is keep playing, which you'd be able to do anyways (unless your GM/table is in the habit of throwing out players whose characters die).
"Marcie, get out of here. YOU'RE DEAD! You don't exist anymore."
Idk; staff nexus staff of power/magi get to do their cool explosion trick without having to prep indestructibility; functionally making your level 12 dedication worth a 10th level spell slot (with a timer limit)
Sure; you CAN always roll up a new character or get revived when you die; but why do that when you can be a cool wizard that can cast any spell in their spellbook once per day and not gaf when you "die". Curiously, some players also like keeping the character they make and progressed with through a significant part through a campaign; weird, I know.
I think the thing is that the Lich archetype represents the feats that are available to all Liches. But every Lich is a singular individual defined in large part by their magical power, research skills, and lack of morals so I imagine what you would use to make a truly dread lich is "bespoke Lich feats".
But the primary reason to become a Lich has to be "avoiding death" more than anything.
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I do agree that the lich archetype is underwhelming, especially since liches are the archetypal overpowered big bad, but lore wise, it's actually kinda apt. A lich isn't an all powerfull spellcaster because it's a lich, it's a lich because it's an all powerfull spellcaster. Lichdom is just something said spellcaster used to reach immortality (and becoming immortal give them all the time they need to further hone their craft).
Lore wise, becoming a lich only offer three things : becoming an undead (something all undead archetype get), a soul cage that reform your body if it's ever destroyed (which you get for the dedication feat), and you become so full of negative energy that your very touch is charged with it, and thus can heal undead or harm living beings.
Out of all of these, only the hand is actually subpar compared to an "NPC" lich, as it ask for another feat and only give you a 1d6 unarmed attack that slow 1 on critical hit and a failed forfitude check... while NPC lich hand deal 1d8 damage for every three "level", and cause an aditionnal forfitude save that paralyse, not slow, people on every hit, not just a crit. I do think there should be a way to make it more powerfull, at least "on par" with an actual weapon, because as of now it's rather pitifull when compared to the actual OG "lich touch".
I mean, a magus lich who spellstrike with it's touch would be really cool and thematic, but right now, at level 14 with this touch, it's just straight bad when compared to any weapon with level appropriate rune. I get that a "natural" weapon you don't pay for shouldn't be as good as one that cost money, but you do need to pay to get the dedication, you need to get and perform a ritual, and make a soul cage that cost at least 1600 gold (if the crafting check went well), and spend two class feat. Given how the dedication is actually quite costly, and that most campaign can't accomodate a lich player, I think a buffed lich touch wouldn't be unbalanced.
As an aside, it's amusing how RAW, the lich dedication just can never be taken, since you need to have crafted a soul cage to get it, but you need to have taken the dedication to craft a soul cage.
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As an aside, it's amusing how RAW, the lich dedication just can never be taken, since you need to have crafted a soul cage to get it, but you need to have taken the dedication to craft a soul cage.
Well, the dedication feat is rare, and you're never supposed to get things marked "Rare" without the cooperation of the GM. So this really shouldn't be a problem in practice.
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Cooperation is one thing, but nothing mecanically prevent a player from chosing any other "rare" option. You need cooperation to play a sprite, but once you get an "ok", nothing else is needed. The lich archetype have to actually be homebrewed in to work in the first place.
It is pretty easy to do since all the GM have to say is "you can craft the cage without taking the dedication, it's just that it's empty until you take it", but it's still a homebrew. But yeah, it's an incredibly easy fix, which is why it's "funny", and not "annoying".
I begin to wonder if upping the Hand to be at least as powerful as the ghoul would be good enough.
Still, I would not mind a resistance or two like the skeleton.
After all it gets a token feat that costs it nothing.
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My plan for Blood Lords is to have the Lich Archetype count as a Dedication into the player's caster class they qualified with. This will allow them to spend feats to boost the amount of lower level spell slots they have, helping fulfil the fantasy of becoming a Lich to achieve greater arcane power. It's certainly an increase in power, but I'm not too worried about the player getting more lower level spells.
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My plan for Blood Lords is to have the Lich Archetype count as a Dedication into the player's caster class they qualified with. This will allow them to spend feats to boost the amount of lower level spell slots they have, helping fulfil the fantasy of becoming a Lich to achieve greater arcane power. It's certainly an increase in power, but I'm not too worried about the player getting more lower level spells.
That seems like a great idea, the very low amount of spell slot mean that each additional slot give you a 33% (or 25%) increase of spells of that level, so it's far from insignificant. It is an increase in power, but given how spells in PF2 are balanced, I don't think it's overpowered at all, spells hardly end encounters or solve problems all by themselves in this edition, letting spellcaster have a few more slot wouldn't put them above martials.
My plan for Blood Lords is to have the Lich Archetype count as a Dedication into the player's caster class they qualified with. This will allow them to spend feats to boost the amount of lower level spell slots they have, helping fulfil the fantasy of becoming a Lich to achieve greater arcane power. It's certainly an increase in power, but I'm not too worried about the player getting more lower level spells.That seems like a great idea, the very low amount of spell slot mean that each additional slot give you a 33% (or 25%) increase of spells of that level, so it's far from insignificant. It is an increase in power, but given how spells in PF2 are balanced, I don't think it's overpowered at all, spells hardly end encounters or solve problems all by themselves in this edition, letting spellcaster have a few more slot wouldn't put them above martials.
I am new enough to the system that I don't fully understand what that means. Can you elaborate.
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My plan for Blood Lords is to have the Lich Archetype count as a Dedication into the player's caster class they qualified with. This will allow them to spend feats to boost the amount of lower level spell slots they have, helping fulfil the fantasy of becoming a Lich to achieve greater arcane power. It's certainly an increase in power, but I'm not too worried about the player getting more lower level spells.I am new enough to the system that I don't fully understand what that means. Can you elaborate.
As best as I can parse, what Evilgm is doing is: Lich dedication requires being a spellcaster able to cast 6th level spells. So if that is coming from the base class - for example Wizard, you count Lich dedication as also being Wizard dedication and gain all the benefits of that dedication feat also. Then when you gain more levels you can pick up Basic Wizard Spellcasting to add more low level spells. Effectively double-dipping in your base class's low level spell slots.
Taking a multiclass dedication feat normally requires you to not be that base class already.
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That is actually a really interesting way to power up a lich without it getting out of hand. Because the spell slots are lower level, they wont pack an upsetting punch. And it's thematically on point since Liches are foremost spell casters who took undeath as a means to avoid death, old age, disease, etc and focus on their knowledge and progress as casters.
It makes sense that they should get more casting related stuff. Because you could alternatively take another class dedication instead of lich to get additional spells and spell slots.
That is actually a really interesting way to power up a lich without it getting out of hand. Because the spell slots are lower level, they wont pack an upsetting punch. And it's thematically on point since Liches are foremost spell casters who took undeath as a means to avoid death, old age, disease, etc and focus on their knowledge and progress as casters.
It makes sense that they should get more casting related stuff. Because you could alternatively take another class dedication instead of lich to get additional spells and spell slots.
OH!
Wonder it I can sell my GM on it! That makes a lot of sense.
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I would probably only allow it for base class spellcasters though. It is possible to get 6th level spell slots from the Wizard multiclass by 12th level. So in a Free Archetype game or at 14th level a Fighter could qualify for Lich dedication also. And end up getting Wizard Archetype dedication again?
It could still be made to work, but it starts getting a bit strange.
In a Free Archetype game, I think it could be possible to have the 12th level Expert Spellcasting feat in two different multiclass archetypes. So would you pick one to use for Lich archetype?
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I'm not sure if underpowered is the word I would use, but the Lich archetype definitely feels a bit underbaked to me. It makes sense as a caster archetype, but does not offer much if anything for casters who aren't Wizards or Magi (The fist upgrade is very nice for a magus).
I did some light homebrew on the side to add some more spice to the Lich archetype. It's just two feats, but I'll link them here since they're relevant.
The special spells granted by this feat are not intended to be much more potent than spells of the same level, if at all. Instead, it's intended as a way to give Liches access to a broader suite of premium necromancy spells if they choose to invest in it.
I would probably only allow it for base class spellcasters though. It is possible to get 6th level spell slots from the Wizard multiclass by 12th level. So in a Free Archetype game or at 14th level a Fighter could qualify for Lich dedication also. And end up getting Wizard Archetype dedication again?
It could still be made to work, but it starts getting a bit strange.
In a Free Archetype game, I think it could be possible to have the 12th level Expert Spellcasting feat in two different multiclass archetypes. So would you pick one to use for Lich archetype?
Unless I'm missing something obvious, I think you're mistaken here. While expert spellcasting benefit for wizard is taken at level 12, it doesn't actually grant a 6th level slot until level 16, so a fighter could take the lich archetype only at that level at the soonest. Thus a martial class that used multiclass spellcasting to get the lich dedication only have 2 more feat until they are level 20 and can't level up anymore, and thus only take basic and expert "lich spellcasting benefits", for a total of one more spell of level 1 to 6. Not too shabby, but not that impactfull for class feats taken at level 16, 18 and 20.
Thanks for the thoughtful help. New to 2e from 1e.