Are poisons expended when they are applied? Or when they are successfully used against an enemy? (On a hit as opposed to a miss.)
If it is the former, then the moment I put it on a dagger, I can't do anything with it thereafter save introduce it to an enemy bloodstream.
But if it's the latter, could I carefully wipe the poison off of one weapon (that never got used), and wring it back into the vial, or else apply it to a different weapon/surface?
Are poisons expended when they are applied? Or when they are successfully used against an enemy? (On a hit as opposed to a miss.)
I can't say there's definite RAW on that, but the Alchemist class features strongly suggest they are extended when used against an enemy (otherwise Alchemists could create everlasting Poisons with their Advanced Alchemy, which would definitely be a problem).
But if it's the latter, could I carefully wipe the poison off of one weapon (that never got used), and wring it back into the vial, or else apply it to a different weapon/surface?
That's GM choice. I'd personally not allow it, as I find that really weird
Well, poisons are consumable, which means that they're designed with the intent to be expended upon use. As for what "use" means in this context, I would assume it would be when it's applied to an item (and/)or (consequently to a) creature, because there is no other way to "use" poisons in this game (unless you have an ability or effect that lets you "use" it in another fashion).
Taking your weapon example, it would be expended upon applying it to the weapon; at this point, there's no way for you to "unexpend" the poison, because it's been "used" by being applied to the weapon. This gives the weapon the ability to apply the poison's effect(s) on the next successful Strike, and it remains until a successful Strike occurs (by RAW, though temporary poisons would probably lose potency upon next preparation, since that's expressly spelled out in the relevant features). Other items such as food/drink would likewise last until consumed (or until next preparation if a temporary poison). A GM would likely rule that it loses potency after a period of time, though.
Ammunition is a bit different, in that it's automatically destroyed upon use regardless of whether it's a successful Strike or not, so even if the Strike misses, you don't retain the ability to poison an individual with that piece of ammunition, because it's consequently destroyed (which by proxy destroys the poison applied to it).
As for letting a character "absorb" the poison that's applied to a cloth and consequently refill the poison, that's purely houseruling territory, as there are no rules for it. By default, I personally wouldn't allow this without some sort of feat and/or skill checks involved, as well as relevant materials (do you have a vial, absorbent cloth, and means to prevent applying the poison to yourself? Should it be a craft check or a survival check? etc), because it basically lets you refill consumables after expending them, which seems to go against the intent of how consumables are meant to work.
Mind you that poisons are explicitly also expended on a critical miss Strike. I feel like even if you could 'deactivate' a poison by wiping it off your blade, you're probably not going to be able to recover enough to refill the vial.
A relevant citation:
Injury: An injury poison is activated by applying it to a weapon or ammunition, and it affects the target of the first Strike made using the poisoned item. If that Strike is a success and deals piercing or slashing damage, the target must attempt a saving throw against the poison. On a failed Strike, the target is unaffected, but the poison remains on the weapon and you can try again. On a critical failure, or if the Strike fails to deal slashing or piercing damage for some other reason, the poison is spent but the target is unaffected.
...because it basically lets you refill consumables after expending them, which seems to go against the intent of how consumables are meant to work.
Those are all perfectly fine rulings in the absence of official clarification, but if you've not expended the consumable, I fail to see how it can be against the intent of using up a consumable.
I don’t know how one would put the poison back after applying it to a weapon. If real life examples could be shown to me on it actually being done, I would allow it in game. Until then, I would take the stance of saying no to that.
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This reminds me too much of the idea of picking up and reusing deployed snares. Only even more tenuous.
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...because it basically lets you refill consumables after expending them, which seems to go against the intent of how consumables are meant to work.Those are all perfectly fine rulings in the absence of official clarification, but if you've not expended the consumable, I fail to see how it can be against the intent of using up a consumable.
Expending the consumable is using it. To use Poisons, it needs to be applied to an item or a creature. Once you've applied it, either to the item or to the creature (depending on what application method is required), the consumable is used.
It doesn't matter if you don't make a successful Strike with the weapon or ammunition, the usage of the consumable is applying it to the weapon, not expending it on the creature via the weapon.
I don't think anyone who runs quick alchemy poisons as "permanent" upon application would allow them to stay viable past the next daily preparations, when all infused items expire. I agree with you on how it looks like it's intended to work when seen alongside the tox's special 1-action application though
That's probably how I'd run it as well.
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That circles back to the old question, that we still haven't received an answer for, about Quick Alchemy poisons and how long they last for.
If we count "use" the applying of the poison it means that you can poison infinite arrows/weapons using Perpetual.
If we count "use" when you the poison is applied to a creature, then you need to Quick Alchemy the same round you strike.
There hasn't been a consensus on that, so atm expect table variance.
Personally I think the intent is that "use" means when something/one is exposed to a poison and not when you simply create a means of exposure (hence why toxicologists only need 1 action to apply, you can create, apply, strike in 1 round), and I run it as such on my tables. Although I'm not gonna make ya fuss if someone runs it as permanent after you apply to a weapon.
(it seems to me that infinite free poisons would fall under tgtbt rule)
It sure would be nice if we got confirmation one way or another though.
Given that Perpetual only works with significantly lower level alchemical items, which greatly limits the effectiveness of such items against at-level or higher threats, and Poisons functioning are largely tied to successful Strikes followed by failed Fortitude saves, the idea that you can poison an "infinite" amount of weapons doesn't really mean it's TGTBT. Yes, the Poison DCs do scale with the Alchemist that creates them, but again, a mere D6 or so of Poison is hardly gamebreaking at the level you acquire it, and there's little to no enemies with bad Fortitude saves. Even increasing it to the higher level Poisons isn't going to break it.
Just as well, it's not difficult to limit these things anyway as a GM, both practically and an in-universe explanation. Characters only have so many (effective) weapons and ammunition, so the idea that it's "infinite" in that respect is absurd, and there's also the idea that the stuff takes time to create and apply, meaning the odds of just "infinitely" exposing an enemy to a given poison, to the point of being ridiculous, is quite slim as well. Not even factoring in numerous enemies that are outright immune to Poisons to begin with. (And there are plenty.)
Granted, it would be nice if there was errata giving clear guidance, but honestly, Alchemists are the underdog class, and they need all the help they can get, and there's little here to amount to TGTBT standards.
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Having poisons expire immediately after they're applied puts non-toxicologists in a really rough spot too, especially when they need to use quick alchemy to boost their DCs.
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Given that Perpetual
It's not limited to Perpetuals. You can use your Advanced Alchemy poisons every day to permanently poison weapons. If you have an archer in the party, you just take 10 days of downtime and all their arrows are now poisoned with the top notch poison. That's definitely a power boost (a Poisoned arrow increases an archer's damage by roughly 50% at mid to high level).
Having poisons expire immediately after they're applied puts non-toxicologists in a really rough spot too, especially when they need to use quick alchemy to boost their DCs.
Not really. Poisons work great even for non-Toxicologists. Toxicologists are the only ones who can apply them during combat, that's for sure, but applying Poisons before combat works fine (Poison DCs are in general equivalent or higher than your own DC). And if you really want, you can modify weapons with the Poison Injector to have even more poison applied beforehand.
Looking forward to the PF3e version of Treasure Vault that has a Refillable Toothpaste Tube But For Poison inspired by this thread.
Given that PerpetualIt's not limited to Perpetuals. You can use your Advanced Alchemy poisons every day to permanently poison weapons. If you have an archer in the party, you just take 10 days of downtime and all their arrows are now poisoned with the top notch poison. That's definitely a power boost (a Poisoned arrow increases an archer's damage by roughly 50% at mid to high level).
Nothing in the rules says poisons last forever when applied, and saying it does is TGTBT. I'm not of the camp that poisons shouldn't last more than a round, but a poison lasting for more than 1 day when applied to a weapon doesn't make much sense both balance-wise and from a storytelling perspective. Would make more sense for food, but then again, that's not really for combat, so balance can be far more lenient there.
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Nothing in the rules says poisons last forever when applied, and saying it does is TGTBT. I'm not of the camp that poisons shouldn't last more than a round, but a poison lasting for more than 1 day when applied to a weapon doesn't make much sense both balance-wise and from a storytelling perspective. Would make more sense for food, but then again, that's not really for combat, so balance can be far more lenient there.
Ravingdork is asking for rules. Your houserule hasn't made it into the book. So if you consider that a Poison is expended on application, then Alchemist's Poisons live forever.
Nothing in the rules says poisons last forever when applied, and saying it does is TGTBT. I'm not of the camp that poisons shouldn't last more than a round, but a poison lasting for more than 1 day when applied to a weapon doesn't make much sense both balance-wise and from a storytelling perspective. Would make more sense for food, but then again, that's not really for combat, so balance can be far more lenient there.Ravingdork is asking for rules. Your houserule hasn't made it into the book. So if you consider that a Poison is expended on application, then Alchemist's Poisons live forever.
Poisons in general, maybe. These cost gold to create and follow the general crafting rules, so there is both opportunity cost as well as a gold cost here. Alchemist Poisons? Don't follow those rules, and have their own rules spelled out in their class write-up.