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New Chirurgeon:
You can use your proficiency rank in Crafting for anything that requires a proficiency rank in Medicine (such as prerequisites), and use your Crafting modifier in place of your Medicine modifier for all Medicine checks.
I'm interested in the latter half: usually an ability like this will have you make a different type of check (e.g., make a Crafting check instead of a Medicine check). The Chirurgeon class feature is new and unique in that you're still making a Medicine check but using your Crafting modifier. But what does that mean? From the CRB, we know:
The sum of all the modifiers, bonuses, and penalties you apply to the d20 roll is called your total modifier for that statistic.
But then bonuses are typically granted for a type of check. E.g., Risky Surgery:
If you do, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to your Medicine check to Treat Wounds, and if you roll a success, you get a critical success instead.
So my confusion is:
1. A character's Crafting modifier is the modifier used to make Crafting checks, and their Medicine modifier is the modifier used to make Medicine checks.2. Chirurgeon allows one's Crafting modifier to be used for Medicine checks, but they're still making Medicine checks.
3. Risky Surgery and other items & abilities grant bonuses to Medicine checks, while the Crafter's Eyepiece and other items & abilities grant bonuses to Crafting checks.
4. A Crafting modifier used for Medicine checks is then ... what, exactly? I'm confident enough to say that it includes one's intelligence modifier and Crafting proficiency bonus, but what else applies?
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If the language was "a Crafting check instead of a Medicine check" (i.e. the pre-errata language) then bonuses to Medicine would not apply and bonuses to Crafting would.
But now, as the post-errata language says the check is still a Medicine check, bonuses to Medicine do apply (e.g. Risky Surgery) and bonuses to Crafting checks do not (e.g. Crafter's Eyepiece).
Having said that, I don't think it would break the game to allow the item bonus of Crafter's Eyepiece to additionally apply here; but even so, it wouldn't stack with any existing item bonuses to the Medicine check (e.g. Expanded Healer's Tools).
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Sorry, Logsig, but you are wrong on that. From checks:
"Start by rolling your d20. You’ll then identify all the relevant modifiers, bonuses, and penalties that apply to the roll. A modifier can be either positive or negative, but a bonus is always positive, and a penalty is always negative. The sum of all the modifiers, bonuses, and penalties you apply to the d20 roll is called your total modifier for that statistic."
The total modifier includes bonuses and penalties. As such, Risky Surgery bonus doesn't apply as you don't use your Medicine modifier but your Crafting one.
I feel like that's a needlessly pedantic reading when the intent appears to be to give Chirurgeons more flexibility in their field of expertise. I would run it how logsig says
Chirurgeons will rarely have bonuses to Medicine (as they don't use it), so Logsig's way of running it removes their bonuses to Crafting. So I'd not say that it gives flexibility, it's just worse to the Chirurgeon as they will not benefit from their full Crafting modifier.
I believe you're misunderstanding me. I mean that I would allow Risky Surgery to be used along with the Crafting modifier, which is not the "total modifier" but a part of it, for the Medicine check. Chirurgeon's special mechanics don't refer to the "total modifier" but to the Crafting modifier. What do I consider the Crafting modifier? Everything next to the Crafting skill on the character sheet: one's Crafting proficiency bonus, ability modifier, and item bonus. Feat-based modifiers to the Medicine check such as from Risky Surgery apply separately from that Crafting modifier
Item bonuses are alongside Status and Circumstance bonuses. So if you apply the Item bonus to Crafting and the Circumstance bonus to Medicine, you are making your own mix of a rule.
Well, you made the quotes to explain the rules: The skill modifier includes the bonuses and penalties. As such, you must apply the bonuses to Crafting and not the bonuses to Medicine.
Now, you can have a ruling based on RAI. But in that case, I think RAW is quite clear and I don't see a hint at RAI being different.
and use your Crafting modifier in place of your Medicine modifier for all Medicine checks.
From what I see, the replacement is only for the base modifier that is coming from your character sheet. And the check is still a Medicine check.
So any circumstance, status, or item bonuses that are being applied to the check need to be ones that affect a Medicine check.
Chirurgeons will rarely have bonuses to Medicine (as they don't use it)
That is not accurate. If a GM (such as myself) rules that external bonuses need to be for Medicine checks, then Chirurgeon players are just going to collect things like Healer's Gloves in addition to their Crafter's Eyepieces.
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and use your Crafting modifier in place of your Medicine modifier for all Medicine checks.From what I see, the replacement is only for the base modifier that is coming from your character sheet. And the check is still a Medicine check.
So any circumstance, status, or item bonuses that are being applied to the check need to be ones that affect a Medicine check.
Chirurgeons will rarely have bonuses to Medicine (as they don't use it)That is not accurate. If a GM (such as myself) rules that external bonuses need to be for Medicine checks, then Chirurgeon players are just going to collect things like Healer's Gloves in addition to their Crafter's Eyepieces.
The fact that we have to bring in GM rulings just reinforces the lack of RAW or even RAI clarity. With PCs, there is no concept of a "base modifier" vs "total modifier" anywhere in any rule book.
I feel like Chirurgeons are better off if they don't need to invest in Medicine checks, which is the point of their Research Field. So ruling they need healer's gloves and what not feels bad.
While technically that means Risky Surgery wouldn't apply... Does anyone use that feat anyway? It always struck me as kind of bad.
While technically that means Risky Surgery wouldn't apply... Does anyone use that feat anyway? It always struck me as kind of bad.
Can't agree more. I always found it quite lackluster.
After someone pointed out to me a while back that you're trading 1d8 damage for 2d8, for net 1d8 and +2 bonus to the check...it does seem on the weaker side. Especially because if you are unlucky the -1d8 could be more than the +2d8.
Perhaps if you didn't have to apply damage and it just gave you a +2 bonus to the check with no other effect, it might actually be better.
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Fair, I guess it's not very risky.
what if you did 1d8 damage and got a +2 bonus and if you succeeded you treat the success as one proficiency tier better.
That might be too good, but the feat as it is sucks, because it's currently a +4.5 hp bonus bonus on average.
Instead if you dealt 1d8 damage and treated success against an on tier check (so you're trained and would use a DC15) but treat a success as though you had succeeded against a Expert DC (*even though you may not be an expert). Now, that flat +10 is very valuable because you know what you're going to get, and on average it's going to be +5.5. If you patient has any damage reduction to slashing, it actually gets even better.
Technically it is better than just adding 1d8 because of the +2 circumstance bonus, which can turn a failure into a success, or a critical failure into a regular failure. But dealing more damage than you gain is still a possibility which would feel bad to me, personally.
My other problem is the feat only works on Treat Wounds, which is a weird time to be taking Risky moves. You're out of combat and spending at least 10 minute cycles on this; why don't you be more careful? I don't think it works on Battle Medicine, which would be a much more logical place to do something risky. Or even some kind of First Aid action. Increasing someone's wounded condition by 1 for another chance to get them back in the fight would be tight.
Yeah, it could be interesting if we renamed the feat Combat Surgery!
And instead of being an action that modified treat wounds it modified Battle Medicine. What if (once per day per character) it dealt 1d6 damage, and restored HP as though you scored a critical success instead of a success, and didn't count against your once per day limit of battle medicine on a character.
That would be a pretty dang cool feat, if for no other reason than letting you ignore the once per day limit of battle medicine to effectively make it twice per day. It would be nice for those who can't get into the medic dedication.