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I'm putting together a new character, level 10 orc fighter. I envision a fairly standard samurai, two-handing a single katana, extension of the soul, peerless swordsmanship, yada yada. I've only played a monk in 2e so far, but looking over feats/archetypes/items, it seems like there are VERY few enticing options for two-handed characters in this edition. I get that in Starfinder and 2e, Paizo wanted to rein in two-handers, and understandably so; I found that in 1E, if you had a two-handed weapon and Power Attack, your character was essentially at their peak, and every item and feat you gained from then on was just icing on the cake, and it sometimes felt like AP writers sometimes forgot how much damage those weapons could deal.
It seems like in 2e, if you're either weapon-and-shield or "duelist" (one-handed weapon, off-hand empty), you're practically *drowning* in cool options to add to your repertoire. Meanwhile, two-handers get slightly better damage dice and seemingly nothing else. I'd love for my new character to masterfully deflect enemy blows in classic samurai style, but try as I might, there seems to be no support for any such thing. Anything approximating fancy swordplay requires an empty off-hand.
But I'm still pretty new to 2e, maybe I'm wrong! Are there any feats/archetypes that I'm glossing over that would help me be something other than guy-who-enrtirely-sacrifices-defense-and-versatility-for-d10-damage?
I played a maul fighter from level 5 to 13. 2 hander fights are absolutely brutal murder machines and surprisingly good at battle field control. You are giving up some really good options if you want to play a pure 2 handed build with a Katana. Fighters have good open handed feats that you could mix in to your combat routine with your build very easily.
Fighters in PF2 need diverse options. You may do the same thing often, but don’t pass on a feat because it gives you a new 2 action activity, just because you already have 1. Knock down, sweep, and sudden charge all got a lot of play with my mauler. My weapon was pure 2 handed but there are great option s too for a fighter who will switch up their grip on a katana. With a good athletics score you can grab and still attack, or regrip if they get away and do serious damage
I looked at Mauler, but unfortunately, most of what it offers at my level are things I can already take (and already have) as a fighter, and the first dedication feat does literally nothing for me.
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I found that in 1E, if you had a two-handed weapon and Power Attack, your character was essentially at their peak.
It still works that way, except you don't need power attack. Two handed weapons deal the best damage in the game without feats. Feats like Dual Slice and Twin Takedown, or features like Implement Empowerment, just bring weaker weapon styles up to par. Land a crit with your katana and you'll feel the difference.
Because you're already dealing apex damage, you won't find many feats to further increase it. Two handed feats instead give you more options, like Brutish Shove letting you knock enemies off cliffs. More importantly, you're free to take any of the dozens of weapon agnostic feats. That includes most of the things which actually provide cool new options. Like Sudden Leap, which let's you leap 30 feet up and knock an enemy from the sky, or Cut from the Air, a 10th level feat from the APG that lets you deflect projectiles per your request.
Oh, also, don't forget your katana can be wielded in one hand still. It lowers the damage to d6, but you still have all the free hand options as well.
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Also, blind fight has proven itself to be one of the best fighter feats in the game. When your team’s damage dealer can ignore concealment and trivialize attacking hidden foes, it is very easy for casters to lay down amazing effects around you. Solid fog right on top of the elf fighter with a maul was devastating, even to higher level enemies.
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Yep, you have sacrificed defense & versatility for d10 (+Deadly) damage!
And you're coming from Monk which IMO has the most agency and similarly efficient combat actions. So yeah, culture shock of a sort.
Two-handed weapons are much like PF2 bows in that they represent the pinnacle weapon (re: damage) and other options require upgrading to contend (though not surpass) by offering extra defense or the utility of a free hand (et al). Even two-weapon fighting (the other offensive emphasis) doesn't offer much offense after Double Slice until the higher levels.
Starting at the pinnacle of the damage curve doesn't leave much room for improvement given PF2's emphasis on game balance. Which is to say if any of the 2HW options were "enticing" (making other options look bad in comparison), then it'd likely imbalance the math, even if simply by giving too much utility to the strongest offensive style.
That said, there are a number of feats that in certain situations can be strong or at least more efficient, i.e. Swipe. And contemplate how each feat with a Strike is better for you when you have a bigger Strike than other Fighters (and this applies to AoOs too of course). There's a multiplicative effect (esp. for Fighters).
Except you're not totally limited since katana can be wielded one-handed, and there's Dual-Handed Assault for a damage kicker. A decent routine could be that, then Combat Grab (which is a nice way to end a round). That's one strong attack, one attack w/ auto-grab, leaving another action for Intimidate or movement beforehand (et al).
I personally like (Improved) Knockdown too, though don't underestimate passive abilities like Blind-Fight since Fighters only need a few bread-n'-butter options to run well, which leaves room for...
Archetypes, and yes there are tons of archetypes available. Mauler is the most obvious, but it's more for non-Fighters IMO. For utility most any non-Combat Style archetype would expand your options, while for defense you might pick up a caster MC for Shield (et al) which gives some skills too and could also lead to the many utility options via spells and spell-items.
Hopefully choice paralysis won't afflict you as it often does me if looking at mechanics first. Since you have a samurai, maybe MCD Cleric of Shizuru (who favors katana & has True Strike if you really need to land a timely attack, i.e. Combat Grab that caster boss). Or maybe something to represent the cultural side like Blessed, Cavalier, Dandy, Marshall, or Medic. These represent much different paths whose value will depend highly on skill/stat preferences, party composition & the campaign.
So yeah, you're hardly stuck, it's just the numerous paths are hidden, while with Monk they're overt.
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Also, blind fight has proven itself to be one of the best fighter feats in the game. When your team’s damage dealer can ignore concealment and trivialize attacking hidden foes, it is very easy for casters to lay down amazing effects around you. Solid fog right on top of the elf fighter with a maul was devastating, even to higher level enemies.
I've seen this tactic in action myself and can vouch for its efficacy.
Thanks for the responses, all. It's at least good to know that I wasn't overlooking something pivotal to my character concept. I will say that I do *like* all the options available to duelist-types, just a mild bummer that two-handers trade out versatility for being beatsticks. Not a deal-breaker though. I guess I'm still getting used to the new convention of pretty much all damage results being almost fully reliant on dice. My time as a monk (levels 3-8) consisted of ridiculous swings in damage range; in a single fight, I might do single-digits, or upward of 60 on a good crit.
Thanks for the responses, all. It's at least good to know that I wasn't overlooking something pivotal to my character concept. .
I feel like you're overlooking all the feats that were named in this thread? Fancy sword master feats include:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1721
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=357
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=369
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=371
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=374
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=385
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=388
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=393
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=397
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=398
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1729
Any of that works with a two handed weapon. One is even specifically made for katanas and bastard swords.
You're leaving effectiveness on the table with a Fighter by taking anything that doesn't have knocked prone as its crit spec. There simply aren't many optimal builds in PF2 that use a sword and forget making a proper Samurai that uses a horse, bow, and sword to full effectiveness.
Thanks for the responses, all. It's at least good to know that I wasn't overlooking something pivotal to my character concept. .I feel like you're overlooking all the feats that were named in this thread?
What I meant was there seem to be very few options that both require a two-handed weapon and do something more elegant than "knock dude down," "push dude," or "hit more dudes."
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You're leaving effectiveness on the table with a Fighter by taking anything that doesn't have knocked prone as its crit spec. There simply aren't many optimal builds in PF2 that use a sword and forget making a proper Samurai that uses a horse, bow, and sword to full effectiveness.
I don't want to be an optimally effective min-maxed hammer man.
I want to be a cool samurai.
I don't want to be an optimally effective min-maxed hammer man.
I want to be a cool samurai.
Then you're going to pick a sword and propulsive bow, start with an 18 in strength while making sure you bump dexterity, constitution, and wisdom. Congratulations, you've completed your build.
What I meant was there seem to be very few options that both require a two-handed weapon and do something more elegant than "knock dude down," "push dude," or "hit more dudes."
Well, I can't think of much else to do with a weapon other than hit dudes with it. The same could be said of 1-hand weapons. Besides "hit dudes, possibly with some added effects like extra damage or status effects", what are you going to do that requires the weapon - Juggle it?
Maybe you could give us some examples of what you want to do with your 2-hand weapon.
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Two-Handed Magi can be a lot of fun.
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What I meant was there seem to be very few options that both require a two-handed weapon and do something more elegant than "knock dude down," "push dude," or "hit more dudes."Well, I can't think of much else to do with a weapon other than hit dudes with it. The same could be said of 1-hand weapons. Besides "hit dudes, possibly with some added effects like extra damage or status effects", what are you going to do that requires the weapon - Juggle it?
Maybe you could give us some examples of what you want to do with your 2-hand weapon.
If we're looking at other editions it could brace against charges, enjoy reach, grant a bonus to a combat maneuver fitting your character, and have versatile damage that doesn't take an action to switch between. Yes, that is a polearm and not a sword but even swords got increased critical range and versatile damage as almost baseline abilities in PF1.
What I meant was there seem to be very few options that both require a two-handed weapon and do something more elegant than "knock dude down," "push dude," or "hit more dudes."Well, I can't think of much else to do with a weapon other than hit dudes with it. The same could be said of 1-hand weapons. Besides "hit dudes, possibly with some added effects like extra damage or status effects", what are you going to do that requires the weapon - Juggle it?
Maybe you could give us some examples of what you want to do with your 2-hand weapon.
Well, I haven't found anything that lets you attempt a disarm without a free hand, which seems wildly unrealistic (could be that it's out there and I haven't seen it though). Pretty much the entirety of the duelist archetype, too, particularly the parry, which I'm pretty sure would be immensely less effective without the strength of both arms. Just about every Duelist feat suits a fantasy samurai, and I wondered if there was anything similar for two-handers. Seems not, but like I said, that's not a dealbreaker. My gut tells me that slightly better damage dice isn't a worthy tradeoff, so I might just switch over to one-handing. Guess I can't knock it til I try it.
brace against charges, enjoy reach, grant a bonus to a combat maneuver fitting your character, and have versatile damage that doesn't take an action to switch between.
increased critical range and versatile damage
So...
Lunge (reach)Knockdown (combat maneuver)
Intimidating Strike (combat maneuver)
Fighter's +2 proficiency (increased critical range with no confirmation roll needed)
And those are all on whatever weapons you want to use them with.
You are still looking for: bracing against charges and versatile damage. Yes, those are weapon traits that you need to pick specific weapons for. Both of those traits do exist on some weapons, though not a Katana.
So...
Lunge (reach)
Knockdown (combat maneuver)
Intimidating Strike (combat maneuver)
Fighter's +2 proficiency (increased critical range with no confirmation roll needed)And those are all on whatever weapons you want to use them with.
You are still looking for: bracing against charges and versatile damage. Yes, those are weapon traits that you need to pick specific weapons for. Both of those traits do exist on some weapons, though not a Katana.
Then no weapon is special in PF2 and you may as well just re-fluff that Maul into a Katana and enjoy better combat outcomes.
Dunno if it has been mentioned before, but in Treasure Vault, the next big book that we are getting in like 3 weeks, there is going to be a Nodachi, it might be of your liking.
It is a 2 handed sword with d8 damage, deadly d10(?), reach and brace. The last trait means that you deal extra damage when you take the ready action to strike someone that approaches you.
As for katana builds, the katana itself is better suited for free hand stuff. Things like Combat Grab, Dual-handed Assault, Dueling Parry... all of that.
As for your question, you can disarm with your weapons out and your hands full if the weapon has the disarm trait. Same for other maneuver types.
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Well, I haven't found anything that lets you attempt a disarm without a free hand, which seems wildly unrealistic (could be that it's out there and I haven't seen it though). Pretty much the entirety of the duelist archetype, too, particularly the parry, which I'm pretty sure would be immensely less effective without the strength of both arms. Just about every Duelist feat suits a fantasy samurai, and I wondered if there was anything similar for two-handers. Seems not, but like I said, that's not a dealbreaker. My gut tells me that slightly better damage dice isn't a worthy tradeoff, so I might just switch over to one-handing. Guess I can't knock it til I try it.
One good thing about the Katana is that it is a 1-hand weapon with the 2-hand trait. So you can use it one handed. And if you do, you don't necessarily need to describe it being used in only one hand - just have your mechanical character state marked as such and adjust the weapon damage accordingly. Narrative description of the action doesn't have to exactly match the mechanics of gameplay.
So then you could use all of the disarm, trip, and Duelist archetype stuff that you wanted. And you might look into Dual-handed Assault to increase your damage when you hit.
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The great thing about the fighter is that you can afford to have 2 handed weapon attack feats and free-hand attack feats and use both interchangeably, some times even in the same round. Fighter feats are a lot more fun in play than they are on paper to look at, because most class feats don’t boost numbers, they give you different actions to use. Sudden charge, lunge, combat grab, the knockdown feats, sudden leap, all can make for for a sword master who can strike from anywhere for impressive damage. I think you will have a lot of fun with your character! Don’t be pressured into thinking you need to take the exact same actions every round or you are wasting your feats. If something isn’t fun in play after a few sessions you can retrain out of it and try something different.
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Well, I haven't found anything that lets you attempt a disarm without a free hand, which seems wildly unrealistic (could be that it's out there and I haven't seen it though). Pretty much the entirety of the duelist archetype, too, particularly the parry, which I'm pretty sure would be immensely less effective without the strength of both arms. Just about every Duelist feat suits a fantasy samurai, and I wondered if there was anything similar for two-handers. Seems not, but like I said, that's not a dealbreaker. My gut tells me that slightly better damage dice isn't a worthy tradeoff, so I might just switch over to one-handing. Guess I can't knock it til I try it.What I meant was there seem to be very few options that both require a two-handed weapon and do something more elegant than "knock dude down," "push dude," or "hit more dudes."Well, I can't think of much else to do with a weapon other than hit dudes with it. The same could be said of 1-hand weapons. Besides "hit dudes, possibly with some added effects like extra damage or status effects", what are you going to do that requires the weapon - Juggle it?
Maybe you could give us some examples of what you want to do with your 2-hand weapon.
Good news! Disarm is terrible in PF2 and you should never use it. You need a critical success to actually do anything. They made it hard to do because a PC being disarmed Rob's them of most of their damage, but NPCs aren't even nearly as affected.
I don't think there's a two handed riposte feat, but with Combat Reflexed and Lunging Stance you have better reaction options anyway.
Dueling Challenge is just a damage patch, like other feats I mentioned.
You don't get parry feats, but that's the trade off for having the best damage.
And again, you can totally one hand the katana if these things are important to you.
Being honest I don't expect to much useful mechanics to katana players until Paizo release some oriental (Tian Xia) based books.
Until there pure fighter with some free-hand feats it's best option IMO for those want to play with a Katana. Maybe a Magus with you want to do some mystical (arcane) arts too.
U can also have a bow and some bow feats too for a more thematic versatility.
Looking again at the Katana, and trying to place its niche, the weapon is special because you can use it in either 1 or 2 hands for different damage values and you really, really want to crit with it (in either configuration) to do max damage.
Swipe is a really good feat for a deadly weapon, especially with fighter accuracy. Using a combination of sudden charge, dragging strike/combat grap, Swipe and the katana’s sword crit specialization, and maybe United charge, I think a mobile fighter who groups enemies together before going for some brutal swipes sounds like a Samurai as brutally accurate tactician. Fleet or other movement options can be good here. Critting with swipe is fun with fighters. If your allies go after the enemy but before you, they can take advantage of its flat foot status, and then set you up for a devastating United assault attack on your next turn.
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Katana trades some damage (deadly d8 is sort of half a dice size) for versatile p/s. So the "niche" is being a bastard sword but with two damage types.
I find statements like “deadly D8 is half a die size” to be misleading, especially to newer players. That is maybe true in the circumstance of making as many attacks as possible, but a deadly D8 die gets better the less, more accurate attacks you take, and the less you are attacking with a penalty. Hence why I feel like the Katana is probably more of a hit and run weapon that will enjoy a feat like swipe.
Since the OP was specifically looking for feats to build around a Kata using character, I think it is useful to help point out what circumstances attacking with a Katana will feel good in and trying to build towards that.
At the same time, damage versatility is nice in PF2. Piercing/slashing are not often the two most useful to have together, but resistance to one or the other and not both does happen. Also, some GMs let players take runes that require one damage type on versatile weapons that offer it, so it can open up options in the mid game.
I find statements like “deadly D8 is half a die size” to be misleading, especially to newer players. That is maybe true in the circumstance of making as many attacks as possible, but a deadly D8 die gets better the less, more accurate attacks you take
Not really. Actually, it's with third attacks that it's the best as you will in general have 25%-33% chance to crit if you ever hit.
Deadly d8 is half a die size and for that to be false you'll need to fight Oozes all the time.As a side note, Paizo made a clarification on Critical Immunity and neither Deadly nor Fatal are subject to it. So you can now wack Oozes with your Katana. It's definitely an asset of such weapons.
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Turn 1, two-hand power attack or whatever. Turn 2, drop a hand (free action), grapple or disarm, then two-hand strike...
Hol' up
I was under the impression that shifting your grip on your weapon always requires an action (which I understand from a game balance standpoint, but realistically is ridiculous). Is it an action to go from one-handed to two-handed, but a free action to go from two to one?
Is it an action to go from one-handed to two-handed, but a free action to go from two to one?
Yes. Release to switch to one-handed, and Interact to grab two-handed again. From Wielding Items.
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The hand-and-a-half versatility of the katana is pretty nice. You could start a combat holding it in both hands, make a first strike, then release one and go for Combat Grab. Next round you open with Dual-Handed Assault and go back to Combat Grab. You get a pretty nice compromise between the greater freedom of open hand fighting and the greater damage of 2H fighting.
The hand-and-a-half versatility of the katana is pretty nice. You could start a combat holding it in both hands, make a first strike, then release one and go for Combat Grab. Next round you open with Dual-Handed Assault and go back to Combat Grab. You get a pretty nice compromise between the greater freedom of open hand fighting and the greater damage of 2H fighting.Unless you have another flourish to use, wouldn't it be better to use DHA on both turns?
Yes, because why not if you're going to Combat Grab anyway?
Though it's still better to start w/ a two-handed grip because enemies might trigger AoOs trying to get past you or you might not want to set up a Combat Grab and/or want to swing twice w/ d10s or expect more AoOs.This means one has some good options to suit various situations, and that's w/ just two early feats.