On a scale of 1 to 5, worst to best, how would you rate the Thaumaturge and the Psychic in these five areas: offense, defense, support, utility, and difficulty to play? If a subclass or subclasses would change your rating, please comment on that.
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Thaumaturges are great, but I'm not sure that I'd sum them up with a rating system. Still, it's your thread, so here goes:
Offense - 5 They have the most Consistent Damage bonuses in the game, and their ability to trigger Mortal Weakness is a Chef's Kiss.
* Weapon - gets Attack of Opportunity at Level 1 and increased accuracy later.
* Mirror - lets you flank with yourself.
* Regalia - can increase party damage.
Defense - That depends...
Amulet Implement does provide some defense, not just for you but for other players. It's a bit like a Champion reaction. I'd give that a 3.5.
Chalice provides some healing.
With Medium Armor and it being very hard to rock a Shield, I give most of the class a 2 rating for Defense.
Support - There are lots of options to help others, but really, Thaumaturges can shine in combat no matter what implement they choose. Still, Tome + Regalia (or getting the lamp, bell, the chalice or the amulet) can help you help the party. I'd give the class a solid 4, depending on what you want to do.
Utility - 4. There's so many ways to act in and out of combat. Diverse Lore, skills, and playing with your implements... Man, it's fun. And here is the best part: You do not need the vast majority of your thaumaturge feats to be a success. That means that you can easily take archetypes, and use them to build out the utility of your character. You can build a thaumaturge to cover lots of different bases.
Difficulty to Play - 5
It is really hard to grok the class, remember your buffs, and create your character. But once you get going, man... I love it. It's pretty easy to use in combat once you can keep track of your buffs. Do not give a thaumaturge to a player who is easily confused.
Fun - 5
You didn't ask it, but this is really the most important rating for me. They are a blast to play.
Thaumaturges are the martial bard I have been looking for. Charismatic, good skills, and great in a tussle.
★ ---- ★ ---- ★ ---- ★
To see it in action, you can click on Jinglemane's posts, as I play him in Play-by-Post games. To see how challenging it is to set up, check out Jinglemane's botting spoiler on his profile. You can get there by clicking his avatar. I needed to enumerate everything for myself so that I could track it all.
Among the challenges of playing with a thaumaturge... Not having enough hands for all your Implements. Ancestries with non-hand natural attacks have an intense advantage because they can hold a non-weapon implement in either hand.
Thanks, Jinglemane, that helps. :-)
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Thaumaturge
Offense: 3.5
Attack of opportunity is great, but a non-offense KAS and issues with target switching bring it down. Champ reaction attack improves this a bit by not being locked to the exploit target.
Defense: 3
No innate heavy armor, good base saves and decent progression, d8 hit die. Champion and sentinel provide heavy armor which can be a nice boost. Chalice actually provokes reactions so be careful not to embarass yourself by taking more damage than you heal with it.
Support: 3.5
Access to cha combat skills. Chalice and amulet provide healing/defense as does lay on hands and champion reaction. Scroll feats or a caster archetype can add more. Has the option to breach resistances and share mortal weakness, but it's not useful often enough. Tome gives free combat RK but that's too table-reliant to wholeheartedly endorse.
Utility: 5
Tome gives extra variable legendary skills. Diverse knowledge unifies every possible RK under a single auto scaling skill. Unmistakable Lore squeezes out more and prevents crit failure. Sleepwalker archetype gives you unlimited advantage on your skills. Scroll feats or a caster archetype can add utility spells. The only downside is your perception doesn't scale to legend which hurts your ability to reliably hit trap proficiency gates
Difficulty: ?
Most classes not named alchemist are pretty easy to play effectively and thaumaturge is no exception. Stick to the good implements like weapon and tome and don't forget to reapply exploit vulnerability on target switch and you're golden.
Psychic
Offense: 2 - 4
Wildly variable based on subclass. Oscillating wave gets a 3 (attack roll spells lol) and silent whisper is a 4 (shatter mind spam) as long as the enemies aren't mental immune or have strong will saves. Since amps can be spammed as long as you have time to refocus and you have unleash to bolster the damage a bit, their offense is miles/kilometers ahead of regular casters limited by slots.
Defense: 1 - 2
Bad hp, bad saves, no armor, bad progression. Typical caster. Occult has some defensive spells if you invest spells known into them.
Support: 3.75 - 4
Cha caster means combat skills and one for all. Silent whisper can eventually use message to give ranged attackers a reaction attack. Imaginary dream can eventually put people in cages. Infinite eye is featless one for all. Occult list remains the best list, but limited spell slots mean you need to be really careful with your spells.
Utility: 3
No skill utility beyond what others can do. Int might give trained skills but those eventually stop helping with relevant challenges. You need to be careful about using your slots on utility given limited spells known and limited slots. Score improves with spell investment into utility but brings down combat support.
Difficulty: ?
Spam shatter mind on mooks.
Use a spell slot against stronger targets.
Use excess actions on one for all or something.
Thaumaturge: it's all about the build with this class so I'm going to give a range for this from worst to best build.
Offense: 3-4
Limited to one hand weapons but with a reliable bonus to damage.
Defense: 3-5
Good base and can archetype for better. Mirror can let you better take of circumstantial bonuses like cover, higher ground, ect and can limit attacks to yourself.
Support: 2-4
Mirror for flanking, lantern for perception bonuses and detecting stealth/illusions/transmutation, tome/regalia for support skills [like athletics to trip or intimidate/diplomacy for intimidate/bon mot], bell for ring bell, amulet for it's reaction, chalice for healing... There is a lot that can fall into support and it just depends what you take and how useful it ends up being in your situation.
Utility: 4-5
Diverse knowledge, tome, mirror for perception checks, Mirror [can seek/interact 15' away, regalia/tome for skills.
Difficulty: 3-5
3 in play, when you have to figure out your next implement and/or feat [or planning out].
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Psychic
Offense: 2-4
Conscious Mind dependent and focus point available
Defense: 1-3
Conscious Mind dependent: at least one can cast a shield with 3 layers.
Support: 2-4
Conscious Mind dependent: Mage Hand [can shove and disarm], Tesseract Tunnel [to open a wormhole speed feet away], Distortion Lens [10' range ally ranged distance, -10' foes], Hologram Cage [block vision], Message [pass out Step, Stride, Shove, Strike, or Trip for a reaction], guidance [add +2 retroactively to a fail/crit fail on an attack roll, Perception check, saving throw, or skill check to turn it into a success/fail or just add a +2 to a normal roll], Foresee the Path [give ally a strike for a reaction], Vector Screen [block missiles and magic blasts].
Utility: 3-5
Conscious Mind dependent: plenty of utility abilities/spells around but some have to take spells for it.
Difficulty: 2-4
3ish in play [it's a caster after all]
Keep in mind that my experience with these are fairly limited since they are relatively new (played levels 1 to 4 as an Oscillating Wave Psychic and I have had a Thaum in my main party from levels 5 to 10)
That said
Thaumaturge
Offense 3-4:
4 if you go for weapon implement, 3 for everything else. Damage is high-ish, but shares the same issue that Ranger has when needing to switch targets without having its action compression.
Defense 3:
Probably a bit higher if you go for the Amulet Implement, but not by much.
Support 3-4:
Counting Mid-Combat Recall Knowledge as support instead of utility. Can only reach 4 if they spec for it with implements and a few feats.
Utility 2-5:
Mostly below average at base (I consider average 3 boosted vanilla skills + some spellcasting), but can heavily spec for it. The generally worst implements are utility based (like lantern) and they can get extra skills with tome and a general purpuse Recall Knowledge tool in Diverse Lore. They can also use the scroll feats for utility purposes. A build that goes all-in on utility would suck in general, though.
Difficulty 2-4:
Hard to figure out, easy to play afterwards. Also build dependent.
In general, a well rounded class.
Psychic
Offense 2-4:
Depends a lot based on conscious mind and your level range. For example, Silent Whisper has low damage at all level ranges because it is more focused on support and Oscillating Wave is damage focused, but needs levels to reach peak performance and pay off.
Defense 1-3:
Extremely frail caster at base, but has lots of options to improve survivability. Sadly, these options are exclusive with more offensive or supportive ones.
Support 2-4:
2/3rds of an occult caster is still supportive enough to not get a 1. Depending on your build, you can become an above average support caster.
Utility 3:
You are still 2/3rds of a caster spell-wise. Utility is hard to fit, but can fit there. Can also spec a bit for it.
Difficulty 3:
Same as Thaumaturge, but less build dependent IMO.
More flawed than Thaumaturge, but gets the job done and can fit a lot of roles for a party with how flexible it is.
I haven't played or followed anyone playing with her yet so I won't post about thauma.
About Psychic:
Ofense: 2-4: As every one said it's very dependent from what subclasses (conscious mind) you choose and every choice has their own advantage and disadvantage. For example, The Silent Whisper give a very good range and good damage to Daze but depends from your focus points to work, Shatter Mind give even better damage, AoE and is less focus point dependent but as cone attack requires a good positioning in battle field many times consuming actions to move and putting the character in a more risky situation. Also both are mental attacks and can almost zeroe your offensive capabilities when facing a mindless creature. For other side the The Distant Grasp, The Unbound Step and The Oscillating Wave aren't subject to such mental limitation but are attacks, not saves and does less damage yet specially The Oscillating Wave cantrips and spells can give you extra damage type flexibility allowing you to exploit more weakness. Another thing that can help the Psichic DPR are Dancing Blade spell and Psi Burst feat that gives you a good complementary 3rd action dmg. Usually a spellcaster needs to use a spell from a spellslot to complement this extra damage, while psychics can do this at cost of a focus point or during unleash state, also remember that Unleash improves damage bonus to all psychic spells and cantrips, not only for spellslot like sorcerer's Dangerous Sorcery or Blood Magic for some bloodlines that's only work for Bloodline Spells and Granted Spells granting more consistent damage in the short encounters or in the first turns, also the subsequent 2 rounds with stupefied 1 condition isn't that bad as many people think.
Defense 1-2: Caster chassis and low HP makes psychics very fragile. The The Tangible Dream 3 layers shield improves your defenses but still very limited, you still loose your AC bonus after first block and this doesn't help your lack of HP and low AC.
Support 3: You main support capability comes from your Occult spellcasting and depending from your Subconscious Mind from your capacity to intimidate (for cha based subconscious) or to RK (for int based subconscious). But the lack of spellslot usually puts you in a very resource limited condition.
Utility 3: Similar situation to support. The occult spells have many helpful utility spells, also your Subconscious Mind gives you a good amount of skills or good social capabilities. But your low number of available spellslots limits your potential.
Difficulty 4-5: Spellcasters are hard to play. You need to select a good spell list, manage limited resources, your fragility and AoE abilities requires you to pay more attention your positioning and Psychic is even more complicated, Unleash and specially The Oscillating Wave's Conservation of Energy requires even more attention to your abilities and limitations. It's not a good class for those who dislike more char micromanagement or to newbies in the system.
Edit for my previous post, ment to say Infinite Eye, not Silent Whisper when talking about Psychic damage. Just realized I had them crisscrossed in my head for some reason.
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I keep reading the thread title as "Rantings", and I'm thinking - 'well, isn't that what this entire forum is?'
Hm. I have a grouping of classes that looks like:
No Magic Ability: Alchemist, Barbarian, Fighter, Gunslinger, Inventor, Investigator, Rogue, Swashbuckler
Low Magic Ability: Champion, Monk, Ranger
Moderate Magic Ability: Magus, Summoner
High Magic Ability: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Oracle, Sorcerer, Witch, Wizard
I would put Thaumaturge in the "No Magic Ability" group, and Psychic in "High Magic Ability". Sound right? Bonus question: where will the Kineticist go?
I would put Thaumaturge in the "No Magic Ability" group, and Psychic in "High Magic Ability". Sound right?
Psychic - yes.
Thaumaturge - if Monk and Ranger are put in Low Magic, I would put Thaumaturge in there too. They don't have any actual spells, but those Implements seem a lot like magic even if they aren't spells - Wand and Chalice more than the others. And they can get scroll access for any tradition.
I think I can build a Monk or Ranger with less of a magical feel than I can Thaumaturge.
Hm.
I would put Thaumaturge in the "No Magic Ability" group, and Psychic in "High Magic Ability". Sound right?Psychic - yes.
Thaumaturge - if Monk and Ranger are put in Low Magic, I would put Thaumaturge in there too. They don't have any actual spells, but those Implements seem a lot like magic even if they aren't spells - Wand and Chalice more than the others. And they can get scroll access for any tradition.
I think I can build a Monk or Ranger with less of a magical feel than I can Thaumaturge.
The Thaumaturge is more "magical" in flavor than champions, monks and rangers. But mechanically I tend to agree, these classes have access to magic/spells but don't depend from it to work. That said the class implements and feats are way more linked to magic than other martial class options are.
So make sense to put in your Low Magic Ability classification but the class stays more between it and Moderate Magic Ability.
About current playtest Kineticist I think it's stays on Moderate Magic Ability due how it's basic attack works like a weapon. But maybe it's up to High Magic Ability in final version depending from modifications in final version.
I guess we'll see. :-)