Haste and extra attack

[Yonman]

Here's the situation:
PC casts shocking grasp with free hand and has shortsword in other hand.
Moves up to attack. End of round 1
Round 2 - PC attacks with shocking grasp and hits. Then says he wants to use his extra haste attack to attack with is short sword.

Isn't that considered to be two-weapon fighting? If so his full attack would needed to have been a two-weapon fighting with his spell hand and his shortsword from the beginning correct?

[Name Violation]

It's only twf if you want additional attacks above how many you usually get per round.

Example if you have a BAB of +7/+1 and are holding a sword and a dagger you could attack once with the sword(at +6bab) then once with the dagger (at +1 BAB). While that IS using 2 different weapons, it's NOT twf. You don't have to make all your attacks with the same weapon.

Twf would be sword (+6 bab, -2 penalty), dagger (+6 BAB, -2 penalty), sword again (+1 BAB, -2 penalty). It's twf because you're trying to get extra attacks.

Haste only works on full round attacks.

[Kasoh]

Probably not.

Was it needlessly complicated? Yes.

Touch Attacks:

Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

So, on the first round, they could have made a free melee touch attack that they got for casting the touch spell. They could have taken a full hasted attack with the shortsword on round two without having to deal with this.

If they missed with the shocking grasp on turn 1, on round two they could have delivered the touch attack, and used the weapon in their off hand to deliver the haste attack.

You only take two weapon fighting penalties if you take an extra attack.

[Yonman]

Kasoh wrote:

If they missed with the shocking grasp on turn 1, on round two they could have delivered the touch attack, and used the weapon in their off hand to deliver the haste attack.

Okay so even if they used the touch attack they can still use their extra haste attack without penalty with the shortsword correct? I just thought when using two hands it initiates a two-weapon fighting penalty

[Derklord]

"Making a touch attack against an enemy by touching it, beyond the free action to do so as part of casting the spell, is a standard action. It can’t be used with a full attack."

Touch spells can also be delivered with a natural attack or unarmed strike (as part of making a normal attack with them), but those would not be against touch AC.

Yonman wrote:

I just thought when using two hands it initiates a two-weapon fighting penalty

No, you could even attack with more different wepaons if you have them (armor spikes, boot blade, etc.) without using the TWF rules. Here is the FAQ on the topic.

Note that in general, a spell's touch attack doesn't count as a weapon.

[Kasoh]

Derklord wrote:

"Making a touch attack against an enemy by touching it, beyond the free action to do so as part of casting the spell, is a standard action. It can’t be used with a full attack."

Touch spells can also be delivered with a natural attack or unarmed strike (as part of making a normal attack with them), but those would not be against touch AC.

Yonman wrote:

I just thought when using two hands it initiates a two-weapon fighting penalty

No, you could even attack with more different wepaons if you have them (armor spikes, boot blade, etc.) without using the TWF rules. Here is the FAQ on the topic.

Note that in general, a spell's touch attack doesn't count as a weapon.

I thought that was the rule with touch attacks, but couldn't find it.

[TxSam88]

Yonman wrote:

Here's the situation:

PC casts shocking grasp with free hand and has shortsword in other hand.
Moves up to attack. End of round 1
Round 2 - PC attacks with shocking grasp and hits. Then says he wants to use his extra haste attack to attack with is short sword.

Isn't that considered to be two-weapon fighting? If so his full attack would needed to have been a two-weapon fighting with his spell hand and his shortsword from the beginning correct?

without the Spell Combat ability, all you get is the single touch attack that goes with the spell.

If he has the Spell Combat/Spell strike abilities, he can cast a touch spell as part of a full round attack, this is similar to TWF, and haste would allow an extra attack.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Haste only gives an extra attack when making a full attack action. Since making a touch attack after the free action for casting the spell cannot be used with a full attack action that means they do not get the extra attack from haste, unless they have some ability that allows them to make a full attack action. So, without spell combat you do not get the extra attack at all. If you do have spell combat using it is using the two weapon fighting rules.

[bbangerter]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Haste only gives an extra attack when making a full attack action. Since making a touch attack after the free action for casting the spell cannot be used with a full attack action that means they do not get the extra attack from haste, unless they have some ability that allows them to make a full attack action. So, without spell combat you do not get the extra attack at all. If you do have spell combat using it is using the two weapon fighting rules.

Well you could also deliver the touch spell by making unarmed attacks (or natural attacks if you have any) against the targets AC (not touch AC), and the first of those that hits will do its normal damage plus deliver the touch spell.

[Mysterious Stranger]

If you use an unarmed attack to deliver the spell you have to use two weapon fighting to use the short sword. This also provokes an attack of opportunity for using an unarmed attack, unless you have the feat improved unarmed combat.

[zza ni]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

If you use an unarmed attack to deliver the spell you have to use two weapon fighting to use the short sword. This also provokes an attack of opportunity for using an unarmed attack, unless you have the feat improved unarmed combat.

no you don't. you only need to use the two weapon fighting rules if you take an EXTRA attack with an off hand (weapon or unarmed attack charged with spell etc). if you have more then one attack via haste or high bab etc (anything other then using two weapon fighting rules & similar abilities for that additional attack) you can make any attack using any form of attack you can normally use with an attack action.

it's in the FAQ that Drecklord linked above, you should bother reading other people's posts before confusing people like that.

[Andy Brown]

There's a FAQ that actually covers this, including holding a charged spell

[Andy Brown]

Also, if you scroll down to Touch spells in combat section of this page

Quote:

Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity

and

Quote:

Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round.

and

Quote:

Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack

So the spell attack in round 2

* does not provoke an AoO, and is a touch attack, if taken as a standard action - no extra haste attack
* does provoke an AoO (unless you have Improved Unarmed Combat or similar), and is against normal AC, if taken as part of a full round attack - extra haste attack

[vhok]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Haste only gives an extra attack when making a full attack action. Since making a touch attack after the free action for casting the spell cannot be used with a full attack action that means they do not get the extra attack from haste, unless they have some ability that allows them to make a full attack action. So, without spell combat you do not get the extra attack at all. If you do have spell combat using it is using the two weapon fighting rules.

it feels like you didn't even read the OP's full post. the attacking happened in the round after he had already moved. your posts are misleading and incorrect. please try and read more before posting so much false information your causing unnecessary confusion to people who come here for help.

[Derklord]

Since this wasn't addressed yet:

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

If you do have spell combat using it is using the two weapon fighting rules.

This is incorrect, Spell Combat is 100% seperate from TWF.