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So I have been writing up some more details for my Planescape Future setting, and I wanted to ask how the Outer Planes (and really, the rest of the wider multiverse) interacts with the Prime Material and its worlds and civilizations in Pathfinder to get some more inspiration.
Specifically, do the denizens of the multiverse at large have any interactions with more advanced worlds and/or civilizations, and would they therefore incorporate such knowledge (ie do they know how to travel between worlds, such as in space travel, interdimensional travel; use/develop advanced tech/magic, etc. etc.)? Remember, Golarion is a comparatively recent world in the grand scheme of things, and even in that grand scheme it's implied that Golarion isn't the most important place on the Prime. And then of course there's the obvious thing of Androffa, which predates many events on Golarion by millennia.
Adding on this, we know that cities on the planes/the multiverse are much more populous at least, such as in the example of Alushinnyrra, which to me implies a higher level of organization and progress at the very least. (Incidentally, I remember there's also a rather interesting fanmade expanded gazetteer of the place written up in a thread somewhere on this forum, which incorporated many elements from more advanced settings-- from 20th century gangster dive bars to advanced sci-fi tech districts to Warhammer 40K and other sci-fi franchise troops being abducted and forced to fight in the arenas.)
This isn't even counting what's already in Golarion's own solar system, considering the lore of Aballon and Verces. Or the canonical presence of Earth, and the amount of lore with that.
More on topic, on the idea of "other worlds", could the Prime incorporate a sort of "quantum multiverse" (for lack of a better term) of alternate dimensions as well? (mainstream examples being, say, Rick and Morty and the Disney Connected Cartoon Multiverse-- Amphibia, Owl House, Gravity Falls etc.) To me, I feel this is feasible, considering iirc JJ himself said that the Universe/multiverse of the Prime could possibly include pretty much any RPG/media setting you care to toss in (although take this quote with a grain of salt if you want).
I think expanding on all this would be extremely cool, and would really like to hear your own ideas and answers.
(Personally, I would be blatantly lying if I said I didn't want to run an adventure involving cyborg demons raiding a repository of magicks from the multiverse over, and the PCs, a dimensionally-lost caped superhero, a medieval fantasy knight, and an alien mage, needing to stop them.)
Ps: I also know about SF, but I that's still exceedingly vague on the planes, and I never really liked SF either (too bland, and I honestly think there just wasn't enough set-up for it to not feel weird).
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I know 1e sources mention dead planets that had been pulled into... either the Negative Energy or Shadow Planes, one of them. The idea of meeting a refugee from a slain world on the planes always felt really cool.
Reign of Winter briefly mentions a distant planet beyond Golarion's solar system that's tied to Baba Yaga, so it would seem beings on her level of power can easily span that far. At a far more grounded scale, witchwyrds are mortal and already masters of interplanetary commerce in Pathfinder's era; one could absolutely employ Akitonian mercenaries to protect their Katapeshi store where they sell Castrovelian goods at ridiculous prices. One of my favorite obscure antagonist factions, the Chapel of Rent Flesh, are Velstracs attempting to uplift a mortal into one of their kind physically, via Numerian technology and surgery - which means others of their kind could likewise play with such incredible machines.
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I think one of the main things your going to find is that even the most advanced technology of the multiverse only rivals (not exceeds) the most advanced magic of the multiverse.
So I think the premise of your question is somewhat flawed. You're asking if there is technologically enhanced creatures out there, I'm sure there are. But there's no reason to think it more common than magically enhanced creatures. And at least in the base conceit of Golarion every reason to think magic is more common.
I don't subscribe to an idea where you have "alternate dimensions" in the since of you have two of the prime material plane that are skewed version of each other. But I do subscribe to the infinite multiverse idea, which is a infinite number of possible planes that could have all widely varying properties and could hold all sorts of things. But not like Rick and Morty where you have an unlimited number of universes that are all versions of each other such that you have a unlimited number of Ricks and Mortys out there.
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I know 1e sources mention dead planets that had been pulled into... either the Negative Energy or Shadow Planes, one of them. The idea of meeting a refugee from a slain world on the planes always felt really cool.
Reign of Winter briefly mentions a distant planet beyond Golarion's solar system that's tied to Baba Yaga, so it would seem beings on her level of power can easily span that far. At a far more grounded scale, witchwyrds are mortal and already masters of interplanetary commerce in Pathfinder's era; one could absolutely employ Akitonian mercenaries to protect their Katapeshi store where they sell Castrovelian goods at ridiculous prices. One of my favorite obscure antagonist factions, the Chapel of Rent Flesh, are Velstracs attempting to uplift a mortal into one of their kind physically, via Numerian technology and surgery - which means others of their kind could likewise play with such incredible machines.
Iirc there's actually a lot of precedent for the "outsider conversion" thing (note: this will almost certainly be a plot point in my campaign) in a bunch of APs.
Fwiw Baba Yaga technically isn't originally a denizen of the planes, but that's a bit beside the point.
I think one of the main things your going to find is that even the most advanced technology of the multiverse only rivals (not exceeds) the most advanced magic of the multiverse.
So I think the premise of your question is somewhat flawed. You're asking if there is technologically enhanced creatures out there, I'm sure there are. But there's no reason to think it more common than magically enhanced creatures. And at least in the base conceit of Golarion every reason to think magic is more common.
I don't subscribe to an idea where you have "alternate dimensions" in the since of you have two of the prime material plane that are skewed version of each other. But I do subscribe to the infinite multiverse idea, which is a infinite number of possible planes that could have all widely varying properties and could hold all sorts of things. But not like Rick and Morty where you have an unlimited number of universes that are all versions of each other such that you have a unlimited number of Ricks and Mortys out there.
On that first part, what do you mean exactly? I see them as being concurrent, more-or-less, so I actually don't see any conflict or problem even in the terms you described. After all, Golarion/Toril/Greyhawk are only single worlds, so we could very easily say that we simply haven't seen much or any of the advanced stuff.
On the second point, I think you could pretty easily combine those two ideas, just say the "alternate timelines" stuff is actually a sort of "possibility space" that's basically it's own "plane" so to speak and the rest still remain independent. Like, take the Disney Connected Cartoon Multiverse for example. Sure, there are the separate dimensional worlds of Amphibia, the Boiling Isles, and Earth, but you can easily set up the "quantum multiverse" so that you could travel to "alternate timelines" as well as "worlds" just by flying since all such worlds are actually "connected" through "dimensional space" or something.
More on "interworld" stuff, I personally have space travel as far easier in my setting (that's not to say I totally ignore physics), so "FTL" is not as all-encompassing as it is normally perceived to be. Mostly because I think it's pretty silly that interdimensional travel is easier than Prime Material/interstellar/intergalactic travel.
More on interactions, I am thinking about worldbuilding a lot more into planar beings and "races" interacting with civilizations, especially n the terms I described in the op.
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In my first point, I was trying to say that being more technological advanced doesn't really make a difference in terms of "power". I see there being parity between magic and technology, though individual places are probably more advanced in one than the other.
Your original post seemed to be saying or asking "isn't there way more powerful tech out there?" and I was trying to say, no probably not more powerful than the powerful magic we've seen.
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In my first point, I was trying to say that being more technological advanced doesn't really make a difference in terms of "power". I see there being parity between magic and technology, though individual places are probably more advanced in one than the other.
Your original post seemed to be saying or asking "isn't there way more powerful tech out there?" and I was trying to say, no probably not more powerful than the powerful magic we've seen.
Condolences for any confusion. I was more talking about variety of civilizations and worlds in terms of different "tech levels" so to speak, since we know it exists in lore (and if you go to the recent "tech guide 2e" threads you'll see more of my specific desires), and thus possible adventure and module ideas.
I agree with your basic ideas, though I see them being less two separate things and more "blended", so to speak.
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So...maybe I misunderstood your question or you goal. Can you restate it in simpler terms?
Are you merely trying to gather ideas for lore to populate a grand multiverse?
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So...maybe I misunderstood your question or you goal. Can you restate it in simpler terms?
Are you merely trying to gather ideas for lore to populate a grand multiverse?
Yeah basically. Just looking for inspiration for my own projects through expanding on what's already seen in PF.
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There was some material in 1e - either actually in the text, or in dev commentary - that the planes are vast. Like, really big. And that, basically, the part of a plane you interact with reflects your culture of origin, broadly speaking. It's why we from Golarion (or Earth, really) see outsiders with human-ish forms or modelled after different kinds of terrestrial creatures, and it also would explain the tech parity between the material and other planes - medieval-tech worlds plane shift to medieval-tech parts of the Outer Sphere, and similar for modern or future-tech primes.
If you want to lean a little actually Planescape, the Outer Planes are shaped by belief and literally infinite - so the setup there lets it be more clear that the medieval-tech and high-tech worlds stay segregated even when they planewalk.
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One thing I like about Pathfinder is that it does away with the "Prime" of "Prime Material". It's the Material Plane, and if there are other versions of it, one isn't the extra-special most-real important one. (If anything, the First World is the "Prime" plane, since the Material was modeled on it.) Less of a geocentric feel.
Other planes do interact with high-tech civilizations. But the Outer Planes are... localized, to an extent. Your access to them is filtered through your culture's understanding of them, as best as I can tell? That's something you could play around with.
As for "why don't low-tech places just get the next rung of the tech tree from planar beings", there are a lot of possible answers. The Outer Planes are spiritual in nature, so they probably don't have a reason to use high-tech stuff themselves- it'd just be different trappings. Axis has math that doesn't work on the Material Plane, so it's pretty clear that by the time you hit the Outer Planes, things don't run on the same rules. I can see archons and angels not wanting to stunt the innovation of the universe by providing answers that bypass discovery, aeons having an overall policy of non-interference, and devils selling such information dearly and only with high-level approval because such knowledge is essentially being sold to the whole world. Over on the chaotic side, azatas probably want to avoid accelerating the destruction of natural resources, proteans can't be counted on to do anything consistently (they probably leak tech plenty, but it's rare that it's at the right level to reverse-engineer), and demons just want to destroy things so good luck getting one that both knows useful tech processes and will share them. Psychompomps just deal with the dead, dying, and undead, and aren't going to deal much with other things. And finally, daemons. When two of the leaders are Pestilence and Famine, you want people to stay as low on the tech tree as possible.
While you don't care for Starfinder, it does address multiple realities, with Witchwarpers being the type of mage able to interact with other realities. It's possible to pull stuff through between realities, mostly temporarily, but not necessarily. There are even species that have been transposed from another reality and made a life in their new reality. It's something that technology has proven unable to access- it only interacts with the local multiverse.
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snip
I guess part of the original question was to ask about whether there are high-tech civilizations in the material, and how they interact with the Planes.
I'm not sure I really understand the "localized" thing. What does that mean?
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I will say, in my view the outer planes are so magical and the beings so powerful, immortal, free of disease, and not required to eat that they simply don't have the same driving forces that mortal beings do. And as such, they probably don't need to rely on technology because the magic they have is more than sufficient. Not to say they can't get it, just that they don't need it.
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Note that the Golarion metaverse gives the answer "yes" when it suits the story and "no" when it doesn't. Not that Paizo flagrantly ignores canon; tweaks, updates, and exceptions can get around that issue. But this principle has kept devs (& Jacobs himself) from extrapolating too much beyond what's published even when they have an in-house answer. As in, "Here's the current/in-office/personal answer, but it's subject to change because it hasn't been published and might need to be altered for future AP arcs".
So when you dream of:
"(Personally, I would be blatantly lying if I said I didn't want to run an adventure involving cyborg demons raiding a repository of magicks from the multiverse over, and the PCs, a dimensionally-lost caped superhero, a medieval fantasy knight, and an alien mage, needing to stop them.)"
Do whatever it takes to make that work.
I've run a Deadlands vs. Ravenloft campaign (w/ a plethora of NPCs & scenarios stolen from the Hero RPG System). Which is to say filching from several games is doable without being beholden to any.
Numeria: The Iron Gods AP has lots of material for blending fantasy and fiction. Why don't we see more Numerian tech out there? Who knows, but you can have the answer be what you want. Internal collapse? Lost a fight to magical intruders? They're insular? External agents working against spread of tech?
On Golarion the answer can be attributed to a lack of infrastructure capable of developing tech so far despite the age of the civilizations. This is due to mass destruction, inter-species warfare, and having magic available (which requires a lot less infrastructure to support AND plays havoc with the scientific method!). Those factors seem relevant across the planes too. And then "necessity is the mother of invention" might be curtailed by magic solving those needs faster and more immediately.
Starfinder: It likely hasn't done much with planes because it hasn't had to with so much space in outer space. But they have illuminated the roles of deities across different cultures and those deities' responses to tech development. I think a key question is did the tech deities arise because of the rise in tech, or is it the tech deities that finally paved the way for tech to develop? With deities covering pretty much every aspect of culture, was the eternity's long lack of such deities why mortals didn't explore those avenues? Or were those deities necessary to protect the lore or protect science from haphazard influences? (Because, yeah, the position of the moon, ley lines, and so forth really does have effect in that cosmos.) And then look how in our world superstition has interfered with scientific progress. Now imagine a cosmos where said superstitions point at tangible effects.
And SF also has things like dragons with lasers mounted on their backs and other hybrids like that.
Planescape: I'm a bit rusty here, but didn't this explore it in various ways? It is after all linked to "Expedition to Barrier Peaks" which had lots of (overly convoluted) technology (and whose story likely inspired Numeria). Also note many creatures introduced in that adventure as alien do exist on Golarion, so there's a link if you want.
Wasn't there a Sigil faction or two that were overtly against technological advances (partly because it conflicted with the development of creatures)? And then there's the obvious situation of those in power wanting to retain power so nipping any tech in the bud as it strengthens the proletariat too much. (I've seen that in fantasy novels.)
Shadowrun: Lots of tech/magic hybrid inspiration here.
Also another factor could be a lack of coal and oil. It took an era of having worldwide woody-pulp corpses stacking high with no bacteria that could eat them followed by millions of years for Earth to have such resources. How many creation myths include that kind of timespan? And the Golarion cosmos is a place where creation myths are history so maybe that lack of simple fuel has been a factor.
So yeah, in all of that brainstorming I think the main points are that the existence of actual magic would interfere with science, and those in power due to magic would curtail the efforts of developing any tech which threatens their power. So yeah, maybe Starfinder's tech deities had been necessary to bump the cosmos as a whole up several notches (with isolated successes like whoever's ships landed in Numeria).
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It just struck me that an in-world reason that Medicine works so well could be because the deities saw it as a major need to fill so us mortals don't go exploring germs or biology beyond miasma and chakras. The skill seems magical to us Earthlings because well, it is. :-)
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snipI guess part of the original question was to ask about whether there are high-tech civilizations in the material, and how they interact with the Planes.
I'm not sure I really understand the "localized" thing. What does that mean?
When your party plane-shifts to Heaven, they don't run into a bunch of winged aliens. The armor and swords and orreries are all more or less recognizable. The vast majority of souls arriving in Heaven aren't going to be human, though, nor from worlds with the same development of armor and weapons. If those aliens plane-shifted to Heaven, they would see something more closely matching their expectations. Plane-shifting back also puts you in the Material in the same general region, rather than being a quick way to hop between distant solar systems or between galaxies.
As for high-tech civilizations, they exist, and they interact with the planes in more or less the same way as low-tech civilizations. There isn't some magic number of nukes that lets you invade the Abyss or force Nirvana to make policy changes. You can't trust a computer to check your contract with a devil. Mostly it probably means the general populace is more educated about the differences between types of fiends or celestials.
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There are alternate realities canonically in Starfinder. There is a repeatable Starfinder Society scenario where the party travels to alternate realities via an artifact, and there have been a few alternate reality stories in Adventure Paths, most recently in the Drift Crashers AP.
There are society games for both Pathfinder and Starfinder where the society has traveled to other planes, and adventure paths (just not for PF2, yet) with long interchanges with specific planes. Dawn of Flame adventure path deals with an invasion from the Plane of Fire, and one of the other Starfinder Adventure Paths dealt with incursions from the Shadow Plane. Planar trade is a huge thing in the lore of Starfinder, and their version of hyperspace (The Drift) involves tearing pieces of other planes away as you travel, causing small bits of planar chaos to erupt in surprising places.
PF1 had several lore books devoted to Planar travel, which were fascinating. (My favorite was Planar Adventures if you would like to read it.)
And here's yet more material:
Hmm
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snip
Yeah I suppose I wanted to ask this question because my group has been playing some MnM recently and I really wanted to expand the ideas of Planescape.
I think most of what has been raised in this thread makes some sense in terms of the "internal politics" of the Planes. I just really wanted to include a lot more sci-fi and sci-fantasy into it. As well as "alternate dimensions" to allow more crossovers.
Fwiw, I don't think "magic would retard science" or anything, if anything it would be an alternate method and/or methodology.
There's A LOT abstracted in PF, so you probably shouldn't read too hard into that (ie medicine skill).
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snipYeah I suppose I wanted to ask this question because my group has been playing some MnM recently and I really wanted to expand the ideas of Planescape.
I think most of what has been raised in this thread makes some sense in terms of the "internal politics" of the Planes. I just really wanted to include a lot more sci-fi and sci-fantasy into it. As well as "alternate dimensions" to allow more crossovers.
Fwiw, I don't think "magic would retard science" or anything, if anything it would be an alternate method and/or methodology.
There's A LOT abstracted in PF, so you probably shouldn't read too hard into that (ie medicine skill).
Planescape's likely the best foundation for this, stealing freely of course and using whatever system fits your sensibilities. The basic premise of Sigil allows for any and all types of genres to converge. A similar multi-reality site can be found in Feist's Riftwar Saga (itself based on a DnD campaign) and...shoot I'm forgetting the other author, but he writes about a Street of Gods (or similar) which is functionally similar. Heck, Castle Greyhawk connected to the Old West and Wonderland, and most RPG settings have a "lots of strange portals here" kind of outskirt area.
I think people are focused on the politics of the planes because active agents (especially divine immortals) kinda have to be the reason for "how things are", which includes the stunting of scientific progress. I think there's ample adventure seeds by looking at who/what was stunting it and who/what has removed that barrier, especially if they're still contending.
Magic doesn't have to stunt science, no, but if magic (by the nature of its cosmos) blossoms first, that cements it in the power structures which in turn will protect themselves. And if that magic has chaotic or elusive effects (which Golarion magic does) it'll mess with the scientific method (which IRL took had lots of seeds squashed before finally finding purchase). Of course one could play they worked side by side or intertwined, or the inverse that magic was horded so mortals had to resort to science until Event X unleashed it (i.e. Shadowrun).
The comment on Medicine was facetious. Obviously Treat Wounds was more a mechanical solution to the non-heroic optics of CLW wand usage in previous iterations. I just found it funny to give the situation a purpose, since most science advancement has been to solve specific problems.
I find it funny that either a broken arm cannot be represented in PF2 or it's hit point damage and can be mended that day. (Not to mention "brink of death" EMT situations!)
"Handsome Siblings", a Netflix show, has good examples of how such a superlative form of Medicine might look in action, i.e. fixing one's chi, knowing the right herbs, and such. That's how I picture it, where it's not first aid as we know it, but heavy woo woo (albeit technically non-magical).
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*smiling and listening to the conversation*
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snip
I don't think its wise to read too deeply into game mechanics and such, especially as they pertain to magic. On the specific topic raised, there isn't really any kind of a "fixed and immutable" solution, for the obvious reason that we on Earth are drawing from sample size: one.
I mean, the big problem here is that you still think science and magic are somehow two separate forces. They aren't. Science is just a methodology of investigation.
In the end, system and worldbuilding design is about what you want to do and include in the setting.
Ps: On the Medicine thing, I recall somewhere in Dragon magazine 277 (one of Dragon magazine's most successful issues) it puts forth a possible interpretation of the medicine skill in how it states that a "modern" understanding of the medical skill would allow one to heal more damage than the "medieval" version of that skill, but would actually heal less without the necessary medical equipment as modern characters might be "less likely to be able to utilize natural methods of medicine." Just an interesting little idea raised, that while obviously would be a bit wonky to implement on a case-by-case basis, might warrant some little considerations involving such things.
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"I don't think its wise to read too deeply into game mechanics and such, especially as they pertain to magic. On the specific topic raised, there isn't really any kind of a "fixed and immutable" solution, for the obvious reason that we on Earth are drawing from sample size: one."
I can't tell what you're responding to here, as I never proposed there'd only be a singular solution, much less one that was fixed and immutable. I offered various options from multiple sources. And I did this all for the amusement of speculation, as I don't think anyone outside organized play is beholden to official canon, much less a stranger's musings.
"I mean, the big problem here is that you still think science and magic are somehow two separate forces. They aren't. Science is just a methodology of investigation."
Maybe you shouldn't be looking for my big problem because...
Where did I propose science & magic were forces? I didn't, unless you mean in the economic sense, which I did. And the former is one and the latter kinda would have to be (whether monopolized or freely available).
I proposed tech & magic were resources that helped agents solve problems and acquire power. With magic originating first (at least in the hundreds of novels & RPGs mixing the two that I've seen) that first puts the power in the hands of those who control magic. Now whether there's a traitorous Prometheus to bring fire to mortals, and what does that fire represent, is another world-building question. Not that deities are required, Chalker's Where the Changewinds Blow has a cabal of sorcerers who thwart tech development, especially military tech which they seem quite conversant in, yet do not want on their worlds.
Magic, again in genre presentation as we're talking woo woo here, generally develops "naturally" or organically, often originating in innately magical agents. Tech, on the other hand, requires oodles more groundwork, and develops in fits and starts with many wrong turns. (Now add agents of pure Chaos (et al)).
So when looking for solutions to life's problems, a society's flaws, or figuring out the world at large, I think magic methods would be the default, thus impeding scientific progress. Sure, one might develop calculus re: planetary orbits, but why not just cast that divination spell that's been in use for thousands of years?
Could anybody predict that the payoff would warrant the effort?
Especially with paths to immediate payoff via magic.
Then yeah, somewhere in cosmic history somebody's gonna eventually move from "trial & error" dabbling and scholasticism on to a more rigorous approach, a.k.a the scientific method. Yet what I've been suggesting is that in a world/cosmos where superstition references actual entities & events, and the weight of scholasticism includes efforts from actual seers, avatars, and so much more, how much longer might it take for such rigor to develop? Even today, hundreds of years later and in a world without magic, there's a lot of pushback and alternative "thinking" based on superstition.
Of course somebody might apply scientific rigor to the cosmos's magical aspects, but speculating about that requires pinning down what magical system(s) one wants at play. Offhand I can name several novels/RPGs that contrast a more intuitive magic with a more scholarly one (sometimes with a ritualistic one on the side). Cool, but what does that mean? Heck, in Golarion that references umpteen types of magic from most every Earth lore there is! And more as needed. :-)
Yet even with the development of the scientific method (or perhaps it'd just be called "wizardry method" for those blokes who need such), when would it be applied to naturalistic methods leading to Earth type technological development? I think it wouldn't lead to separate paths, but an intertwined path much like some of the magic-punk of Golarion. So that computer likely would have a spirit within it. Lots of patches would be magical. I don't think Starfinder would've been the end result (though maybe one could attribute the less magical tech to those new tech deities...which seems kinda like an oxymoron in a way.)
And what if deities simply told us stuff before we ever around to developing such rigor?
You want to know what quantum gravity is? It's this.
Thanks, hadn't even thought to ask.
Instead of naming scientific formulas after famous scientists, they'd be named after the deities that bequeathed them to us.
What would such coddling do to our development alongside such a dynamic thrust forward?
Of course those would be what I listed as intertwined in my earlier post. Another spin to add to the list that occurred to me while responding is having science arise first instead. One could have the traditional naturalistic scientific method lead to unlocking magic, much like finding the "speed force" in DC comics, yet encapsulating magic in all its breadth instead. Imagine our world, except woo woo is true even if just as iffy, nebulous, and incredible in the basic sense of lacking credibility. Yet since woo woo is real (so has tangible, measurable effects) science finally pins down magical mechanics. I can imagine the nigh-uncountable variables at play from the mood/faith/heritage of those involved to the positions of planets to which ley lines those divining tea leaves were grown near. But hey, with supercomputers, maybe mortals (or their AI, hmm) finally pin down how to work magic. And who knows what that might unleash... And the social turmoil of certain traditions being proved truer than others, not that people would defer to evidence (especially of such complexity). :-)
Oh, yeah, and that references back to what I was suggesting earlier, that in a world with complex magic (or umpteen competing magical traditions), it'd be hard to develop a scientific method, naturalistic or supernatural. One's preconceptions there would have even more weight (as in minds effecting the experiments themselves) than the mere ideologies and biases in interpretation that hindered us here on Earth. While it's useful to have "wizards study with rigor" as a trope, I'm skeptical that'd arise without a patron (i.e. Nethys & Boccob) to overcome the inertia of innate, intuitive, and intercessory magic.
"In the end, system and worldbuilding design is about what you want to do and include in the setting."
Umm, hasn't everyone been saying that from the beginning?
Re: Medicine
While it's almost tautological that those who manage medical treatment with fewer resources would manage better in a situation without modern resources, I don't think that captures the discrepancy at hand in PF2.
Not that it needs explaining, but where's the fun in not trying?
As well as the "use targeted meditation and massage to realign one's chakras that were damaged" interpretation of super-duper Treat Wounds, I also like the broader one (in that it applies to many super-duper game aspects) of humans having developed a different physiology due to existing in an inherently magical world with all the dramatic pressures of the heroic genre. So yeah, the PF2 Human Ancestry isn't us relocated, it's us as a species having weathered so much more. It's evolution, even with some aberrant branches, i.e. Derro. And auras, unseen magics, et al do have an impact on physiology. That also explains why the basic 3d6 humans of the earliest DnD iterations have grown to the average PF2 citizen being well above that norm. As does power creep.
And gosh, don't take that seriously too! :-P
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extremely long snip
My intention was only to give my own views on the subject as I plan to implement them.
Again, my main point is as there is obviously no scifi/fantasy stuff exists IRL, we cannot make any objective conclusions, and the PF setting has not given us any real info to draw concrete conclusions.
I am not saying that you are "objectively wrong", I am saying that there is no concrete and singular solution, so it is open to interpretation. Much of your post seems to be speculation on what might be, based on Golarion's magic system in game terms. Yet I propose that the study of magic can be bolstered by the scientific method, and not necessarily stopped (In fact even in Golarion's own lore there is evidence for this, if anything Golarion is "just" a post-apocalyptic setting which accounts for certain things we may see).
Now, to give my personal opinion, I feel "magic users preserving stasis" and "magic is anti-science and so can never coexist" are kind of boring plot points to use, so I don't worldbuild for that (although I see where you are coming form in your claims).
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Off-topic "magic vs. science" rant:
If you're going to have a group of magic users opposing science, do it right! Have them use a massive sympathetic blood magic ritual to influence every single lab rat on the planet, ruining years of data and calling even more into question!
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Haha, that's funny Quidest. Because the scientist are busy experiment on the spell casters how they can extract the magic from them and bottle it so anyone can use it. The casters are the rats.
And remember, science cannot move forward without heaps!
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In any case, I suppose the takeaway here is to decide on a tone and themes and build towards that.
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Well, yeah, of course there's no way to reach an objective conclusion re: fantasy, nor would one matter if it existed. So yep, speculation galore. Flex my brainpan.
I think whether "magic users preserve stasis" is interesting or not depends on if there's an ongoing struggle (which yes, that applies to most every story). If auto-success as an excuse for not addressing tech, that just kills opportunities (though it's a common conceit in fantasy novels). If there's resistance to those magic users, outside intrusion, or that stasis has ended (due to any number of potential story seeds), that could be fruitful, i.e. Shadowrun where it was magic that had been suppressed then released. So while it's simple for verisimilitude's sake to speculate that "powers-that-be" who use magic would like to thwart technology so they remain in control, that doesn't mean they should have succeeded or continue to succeed. And of course they'd happily add tech to their repertoire once the dam burst.
I've been trying to separate technology (a resource in all aspects, therefore powers would want to control) from the scientific method, an outgrowth of philosophy which could/would be applied to most RPG/novel magical systems (and in many instances has been). In our world they're blended, yet that's optional. Ex. gods might gift the tech or SM might not have focused on natural tech yet.
I don't advocate "magic is anti-science and so can never coexist" as evidenced by my posts addressing intertwining them. (Plus I've written a novel with a vampire dedicated to progressing science & reason among the protagonists.) Yet I do think magic's presence would add confounding factors to the scientific method which has had (and continues to have) plenty of natural confounding variables to overcome.
Imagine if real-world miracles were verifiable, yet still inexplicable? So yeah, it's as simple as magic adds more variables, not that tech & magic interfere directly which seems a lazy patch for authors (depending on how it supports/dampens the tension of course). Well, that and magic might solve problems which encouraged scientific progress, maybe so much better the payoff for science remains too far off to invest in.
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I'm reminded of how some of the devs for Champions (a superhero game) had an alien entity in their home campaign who thwarted the expansion of technology into Earth's populace. This explained why there wasn't mass manufacturing of Iron Man outfits, etc., especially high-tech items cobbled together by less wealthy inventors, i.e. Spiderman and his groundbreaking web fluid replenished by a notoriously poor student.
Rather than have that alien be an excuse for tech-stasis into the future, it merely explained the past stasis. The PC heroes overcame that entity and new markets in uber-technology flourished. That in turn caused a major overhaul in their Earth, reshaping it with the heroes caught amidst all the turmoil that they've allowed. I believe one of them said our Earth lost its usefulness as a touchstone for understanding that one.
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In any case, I suppose the takeaway here is to decide on a tone and themes and build towards that.
Very much this, as well as the nature of the factions at play and what tone/theme options would amplify their story value.
You could overlay high-tech on top of current Golarion, as if Numerian tech had spread across Golarion long ago (yet funnily enough history conveniently led to mirror the aspects you want to keep, just with more tech now).
Imagine Shadowrun missions among Absalom guilds, complete with copter chases and flying monsters.
Tar-Baphon's elite undead would of course have cybernetic implants (only altering their stats when worthwhile).
Cyberspace might be grounded on an interdimensional hivemind.
The Worldwound might have been caused by a nuke.
(Yeah, kinda have to address nukes; a hiccup for many a sci-fi storyteller.)
Too much maybe, as those could create a need for tech skills and skill feats, maybe even classes though Gunslinger & Inventor might satisfy that if there's enough gear for everyone to toy with. (That stuff could be hard to balance...) I admit I wouldn't do any of that and would rather reskin.
The Immortals/Wrath of the Immortals revised boxed rulesets for BECMI has planar-type social-politickings stuff, the first Immortals adventure module, The Immortal Storm, had Immortal characters going to an alternate modern Earth at one point, the Blackmoor BECMI 2nd and 3rd adventure modules, Temple of the Frog and City of the Gods, dealt with a crashed spaceship scenario, the Companion BECMI adventure called Where Chaos Reigns has a technology versus magic by time-travel feel, and reputedly, Jim Ward's Starship Warden/Metamorphosis Alpha adventure involved fantasy characters going into spaceships backstory behind it. ;)
PS. If ya ain't too familiar with the BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia, then something like OSE's got you covered. ;P
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snip
I'm reassured to see that you share the same general ideas about magic, tech and science as I do.
I definitely think that science would bolster both tech and magic as well.
To clarify my intent for the setting, it's definitely meant to be a high scifi/fantasy crossover setting, like a scifi version of Planescape (with some inspiration from Dragonstar, a setting that is worth taking a look at for some basic ideas at least) but even more expanded in scope and tone, where PCs can get involved in anything and everything and use equipment/magic/powers from across the galaxy, universe, and multiverse.
Also, if we ever get a new "tech book", I would really like for it to be about "tech levels" and giving guidelines for making tech according to those so that both GMs and players have a multitude of options. Also "alternate tech levels" would be great to have.
On a side note, those ideas you propose on those causing stasis as being the opponents of a campaign are interesting.
Ps: nukes and such can be pretty easily handled anyways (coming from some MnM experience as well as personal rpg design experience).