|
Channel Energy: If I have this ability from more than one class, do they stack?
No—unless an ability specifically says it stacks with similar abilities (such as an assassin's sneak attack), or adds in some way based on the character's total class levels (such as improved uncanny dodge), the abilities don't stack and you have to use them separately. Therefore, cleric channeling doesn't stack with paladin channeling, necromancer channeling, oracle of life channeling, and so on.
posted July 2011 | back to top
The Hinterlander ability doesn't say that it stacks with the Ranger ability, so you must track them separately.
Probably them not stacking is an intended feature, as the Hinterlander ability has additional effects and increases at a different speed.
The problem is if the effects of the two different abilities stack together or overlap. As the source for both is the "favored enemy class feature" I think they overlap, but other GMs can see it differently.
RAW and RAI are really unclear as nowhere does it says if the favored enemy feature gives a typed bonus or not.
As a GM I wouldn't allow the character to get a favored enemy at the first level, increase the bonus at the 5th level and then add to it again at the 6th level when he gets the prestige class.
I'm inclined to believe they stack, else it would be a waste (eventually) to have selected the same favored enemy.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm inclined to believe they stack, else it would be a waste (eventually) to have selected the same favored enemy.
Nothing forces the Hinterlander into selecting the same favored enemy. Depending on the campaign it can be more useful a single big stack or several smaller ones. Considering the special benefit of each Hinterlander favored enemy, the ability is reasonably powerful even without stacking.
It's true nothing forces you to choose the same Favored Enemy, but doing so shouldn't be a waste IMO.
If they don't stack, then it would be a waste.
Hinterlander trades out a breadth of options for a very specific list of enemies they can choose.
Now, if you campaign is focused on those kinds of enemies, this is very good. If not, then it's not and you probably wouldn't choose to become a Hinterlander in the first place.
The class is written as a very specialized kind of ranger archer, and to me it seems silly to say that FE would work non-optimally if you choose the same favored enemy.
Favored Enemy Stacking... somehow I'm reminded of the Dead Pile of Bards... ٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ (x_x)(x_x)(x_x)
|
I think they are intended to stack, and as a GM I allow them to stack.
If you're of a more "Strictly RAW" mindset, remember that both class features provide untyped bonuses.
They don't stack for progression, the bonuses do stack since they're untyped bonuses from different sources.
Sorry, yes I should be more clear. They progress at different rates and wont stack for progression. So if you spend 6 levels in ranger (you got your second favored enemy and increase at level 5) you have wasted 1 level of progression since you're about to go into Hinterlander. Although when you go back to Ranger you would pickup where you left off, so not necessarily a complete waste.
|
They don't stack for progression, the bonuses do stack since they're untyped bonuses from different sources.Are they really 'different sources' when one is literally 'as per the other class' though?
Paths of the Righteous pg. 18 ...Source
Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a hinterlander chooses a favored enemy from the list below. This functions like the ranger class feature of the same name, except that the hinterlander gains an additional ability corresponding with the favored enemy chosen. Additionally, at 8th level, he can select a new favored enemy and the bonus for one such enemy increases by 2 (rather than at 5th and 10th levels).
...
Per the FAQ listed above by Diego Rossi, class features like this don't stack unless they specifically state that they do.
They don't stack for progression, the bonuses do stack since they're untyped bonuses from different sources.Are they really 'different sources' when one is literally 'as per the other class' though?Paths of the Righteous pg. 18 ...Source
Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a hinterlander chooses a favored enemy from the list below. This functions like the ranger class feature of the same name, except that the hinterlander gains an additional ability corresponding with the favored enemy chosen. Additionally, at 8th level, he can select a new favored enemy and the bonus for one such enemy increases by 2 (rather than at 5th and 10th levels).
...Per the FAQ listed above by Diego Rossi, class features like this don't stack unless they specifically state that they do.
Its not like there's a favored enemy bonus to dmg that would preclude them from stacking. Two sources of extra damage with the same trigger should still activate. with Channel energy, its important because you get more dice when the ability gets advanced, but you still have two pools of channel energy if they don't stack.
You can have two instances of the Favored enemy class feature and you can select the same creature type for both of them and get the bonuses for attack and damage from each one.
If the question is, Does a Ranger 5/Hinterlander 5 count as Ranger 10 and gets to advance its favored enemy bonus, then no. There's no language in the prestige class that makes me think it works like that.
Does a Ranger 5/Hinterlander 1 who selected Outsider (evil) as their favored enemy at all opportunities have a +6 Atk/Dmg against Outsiders(evil)? I'd say yes.
Right, because the bonus attack/damage is an untyped bonus and will stack.
Not to make this even more needlessly confusing, but isn't this quite literally one of the cases where a 2013 FAQ would also take precedent (and make them stack for progression):
Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?
It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.
Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.
Ignoring how badly the example follows even its own explanation....
While the FAQ is technically just in reference to Archetypes, it predates the Hinterlander PRC and still points out that when an ability directly says it works like another ability, it is/should work like/stacks with/etc. everything with that ability.
Now there is still the matter of progression difference, but all that means is you get the "additional pick and upgrade" at specific level thresholds instead of explicitly "every 5 total levels in both classes", but in either case, you're still gaining a new Favored Enemy at +2 and getting to follow that by increasing any of your Favored Enemies by the same +2. (And Hinterlander picks gets to tag on a special bonus vs specific enemy types over and above the +2.)
Unless people are disagreeing on more than how/when you get a pick with the "stacking", I think the disagreement and difference between "stacking and non-stacking" is mostly superfluous.
|
|
Similarly, an Unchained Rogue 5/Slayer 3 gets 4d6 (3d6+1d6) dice of sneak attack when they qualify, despite both class features not stacking and them having the same name.
No, as for the above-mentioned FAQ, they don't stack. That character has two different sneak attack dice pools and can use one or the other.
Similarly, an Unchained Rogue 5/Slayer 3 gets 4d6 (3d6+1d6) dice of sneak attack when they qualify, despite both class features not stacking and them having the same name.No, as for the above-mentioned FAQ, they don't stack. That character has two different sneak attack dice pools and can use one or the other.
That’s the difference between being activated and being a condition. You can apply both sets of sneak attack dice because the conditions for both have been met and there is no further required action. For channel, the ability takes its own action so you can only use one at the same time.
|
|
Similarly, an Unchained Rogue 5/Slayer 3 gets 4d6 (3d6+1d6) dice of sneak attack when they qualify, despite both class features not stacking and them having the same name.
They do not stack.
The specific reason they do not stack is because sneak attack damage is precision damage. Precision damage does not normally stack with other sources of precision damage, unless an ability specifically says otherwise.
How do you know all sneak attack damage is precision damage? Because the Core Rulebook makes that assumption. In many places, such as when talking about critical hits on page 168.
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue’s sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from weapon special abilities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Does the CRB rogue's sneak attack feature state that it is precision damage? No. And yes, it would have been much better if it did. But that quote above is one of five different places in the CRB where sneak attack is given as an example of precision damage.
Precision damage does not normally stack with other sources of precision damage, unless an ability specifically says otherwise.
Source?
|
|
We've discussed this before, with your agreement on how it works. They do "stack" for dealing damage (as long as the requirements of both are met).Similarly, an Unchained Rogue 5/Slayer 3 gets 4d6 (3d6+1d6) dice of sneak attack when they qualify, despite both class features not stacking and them having the same name.No, as for the above-mentioned FAQ, they don't stack. That character has two different sneak attack dice pools and can use one or the other.
I was agreein with your statement, not with your example.
Your link point to:
slayer specifically states it as +1d6 sneak attack. + means increase.So a 9th level slayer gets 6d6 of sneak attack?
As it says:
3 ... +1d6
6 ... +2d6
9 ... +3d6
by your logic, you get +1d6+2d6+3d6=6d6.The notation +xd6 intstead means that you add x d6 to the damage rolled, not that you increase the bonus by +xd6.
The actual text of the ability says:
This additional damage is 1d6 at 3rd level, and increases by 1d6 every 3 levels thereafter. Should the slayer score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this additional damage is not multiplied.Noting about it being a +1d6 to a different class ability.
No, the number after the + is the total amount of sneak attack added from the slayer class, not a cumulative.
It's not referencing any other ability
A 6th level slater adds 2d6 total. Not +1d6 and +2d6.It's a scaling ability. Come on. Use a gram of common sense
Seems you guys already came up with your answer.
So + mean increase, save when using it that way would mine your argument?
+ means that it is added to the standard damage, but it doesn't mean that it will be added to other sneak damage.
willuwontu has explained it very well.
What you explained (bold mine):
This should function as per the Channel Energy FAQ since they don't mention stacking. The abilities don't stack, instead you simply have two pools of sneak attack dice that are applied when their conditions are met.
Example:
Let's say we have an unchained rogue 5/slayer 3 for some reason. This means they have +3d6 sneak attack (unrogue) and +1d6 sneak attack (slayer).
Let's see what happens if they attack in these 3 scenarios:
a) A flanked target without any concealment.
b) A flanked target with concealment.
c) A flanked target with total concealment.a) The unrogue/slayer gets +4d6 damage on their attacks, because the conditions for both abilities are met. (DR, added for clarification: And here is where your example is wrong. You are stacking stuff that doesn't stack. It overlaps.)
b) The unrogue/slayer only gets +3d6 damage on their attacks, this is because the slayer ability doesn't work on target with concealment. If the abilities actually stacked (they don't), this would instead be either +4d6 damage or +0d6 damage depending on the GM.
c) The unrogue/slayer gets no bonus damage on their attacks, because neither ability functions against opponents with total concealment.
Your post was right in saying that they are two pools that don't stack.
|
|
Precision damage does not normally stack with other sources of precision damage, unless an ability specifically says otherwise.Source?
I retract my statement. When I posted I was almost certain this was a rule, but extensive searching can’t find it in any book, FAQ, or designer post.
Upon further reflection it would also cause some silly and game-slowing interactions, such as a rogue 3/swashbuckler 6 possibly having to roll her sneak attack damage first, then see if it was higher or lower than 6 (her swashbuckler precise strike bonus), and only taking the higher.
|
|
While it doesn't cover this exact situation, there is already a rule about Favored Enemy bonuses not stacking:Similarly, an Unchained Rogue 5/Slayer 3 gets 4d6 (3d6+1d6) dice of sneak attack when they qualify, despite both class features not stacking and them having the same name.No, as for the above-mentioned FAQ, they don't stack. That character has two different sneak attack dice pools and can use one or the other.We've discussed this before, with your agreement on how it works. They do "stack" for dealing damage (as long as the requirements of both are met).
---
To clarify, a Ranger 5/Hinterlander would not stack with each other for determining the progression of their Favored Enemy class features (as per the FAQ) and instead have their own pool of Favored Enemies. This would leave them with the following:
- Favored Enemy (Ranger) 2 Picks
- Favored Enemy (Hinterlander) 1 PickThis means that they could have:
- Favored Enemy (Ranger, <Any Ranger Favored Enemy Choice>) +4
- Favored Enemy (Hinterlander, <Any Hinterlander Favored Enemy Choice>) +2or
- Favored Enemy (Ranger, <Any Ranger Favored Enemy Choice>) +2
- Favored Enemy (Ranger, <Any other Ranger Favored Enemy Choice>) +2
- Favored Enemy (Hinterlander, <Any Hinterlander Favored Enemy Choice>) +2If they have:
- Favored Enemy (Ranger, Outsider (Evil)) +4
- Favored Enemy (Hinterlander, Outsider (Evil)) +2When they attack an Outsider with the Evil subtype, they gain a +6 (+4 (ranger), +2 (hinterlander)) bonus to attack and damage rolls against them since they meet the requirements of both abilities. However, they only count as having a +4 Favored Enemy Bonus (highest of +4 and +2) for the purposes of feats and abilities that require such or use such to determine their effects.
PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 64 ...Source
Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger selects a creature type from the ranger favored enemies table. He gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks against creatures of his selected type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against them. A ranger may make Knowledge skill checks untrained when attempting to identify these creatures.
At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the ranger may select an additional favored enemy. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by +2.
If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table below. (Note that there are other types of humanoid to choose from—those called out specifically on the table below are merely the most common.) If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the ranger's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher.
...
As this rule doesn't take multi-classing into account, it doesn't exactly cover this situation, but it does seem to reinforce a general 'no stacking' policy (in theory, the 'tricks' you just learned as a Hinterlander are the same ones you already knew as a ranger).