Had a thing come up today -- if a cleric slays a zombie or ghast with Channel Positive Energy, is the body left behind in tact enough to Raise Dead? Or are they turned to dust?
I could not find anything in RAW about this.
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Raise Dead never works on undead:Had a thing come up today -- if a cleric slays a zombie or ghast with Channel Positive Energy, is the body left behind in tact enough to Raise Dead? Or are they turned to dust?
I could not find anything in RAW about this.
PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 329 School conjuration (healing); Level adept 5, cleric 5, oracle 5, shaman 6, spiritualist 5, warpriest 5, witch 6Source
Casting
Casting Time 1 minute
Components V, S, M (diamond worth 5,000 gp), DF
Effect
Range touch
Target dead creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none, see text; Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
Description
You restore life to a deceased creature. You can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than 1 day per caster level. In addition, the subject's soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject's soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.
Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell gains two permanent negative levels when it is raised, just as if it had been hit by an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it takes 2 points of Constitution drain instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can't be raised). A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised. A spellcasting creature that doesn't prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell.
A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its current HD. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature's equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.
A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can't be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age.Other than that, I don't believe there is anything to indicate a corporeal undead turns to dust when slain (though specific undead may have their own specific rules), so a more powerful spells should work: Source
PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 334
Casting
Casting Time 1 minute
Components V, S, M (diamond worth 10,000 gp), DF
Effect
Range touch
Target dead creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none, see text; Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
Description
This spell functions like raise dead, except that you are able to restore life and complete strength to any deceased creature.
The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.) The creature can have been dead no longer than 10 years per caster level.
Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of prepared spells. The subject of the spell gains one permanent negative level when it is raised, just as if it had been hit by an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it takes 2 points of Constitution drain instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can't be resurrected).
You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. You cannot resurrect someone who has died of old age. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can't be resurrected.
Nothing about channel energy mentions undead turning into dust, so its safe to assumed that they do not turn to dust.
However:
A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can't be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age.So raise dead can't raise any person turned into an undead monster and later destroyed.
However:
This spell functions like raise dead, except that you are able to restore life and complete strength to any deceased creature.Resurrection or better can bring such a creature back to life.
Yes, but resurrection also doesn't care about the condition of the remains, so long as you have some. So pile of dust is enough to perform a resurrection on.
Undead are destroyed at 0 hit points, but that doesn't mean their bodies crumble to dust (unless you want them to). The term 'destroy' is typically used for objects, constructs, undead, and buildings. The term is generally accepted that when you destroy something, it's basically unusable or worthless until it's repaired. Like a vase reduced to 0 hit points counts as destroyed, how it's described depends on how it was reduced to that state. In most cases, it will be a pile of shards but those could theoretically be put back together with make whole, same with the corpse of a destroyed undead.
Just to add to this, the "undead that are reduced to 0 HP are destroyed" line is mostly to indicate that they cannot be turned back into undead again as the body's been damaged so terribly that it can no longer move even via magical animation.
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Undead are destroyed at 0 hit points, but that doesn't mean their bodies crumble to dust (unless you want them to). The term 'destroy' is typically used for objects, constructs, undead, and buildings. The term is generally accepted that when you destroy something, it's basically unusable or worthless until it's repaired. Like a vase reduced to 0 hit points counts as destroyed, how it's described depends on how it was reduced to that state. In most cases, it will be a pile of shards but those could theoretically be put back together with make whole, same with the corpse of a destroyed undead.Just to add to this, the "undead that are reduced to 0 HP are destroyed" line is mostly to indicate that they cannot be turned back into undead again as the body's been damaged so terribly that it can no longer move even via magical animation.
No, its just that you can not 'kill' something that is not 'alive' so the term 'destroyed' tends to be used for such creatures (as Pizza Lord mentioned a couple of posts back).
When Resurrecting an undead, you do need to keep in mind that the 'clock' for the 'The creature can have been dead no longer than 10 years per caster level' restriction starts ticking from the creature's 'original' death (before becoming undead and then being destroyed) and not the point at which the undead was destroyed: Given the 130+ years the spell covers, this is typically fairly academic in such situations, but it could still come into play with truly old undead...
Maybe the person questioning this played D&D 3.5 in the past. Sometimes I get D&D brain when playing Pathfinder because they are similar. In 3.5, when you turned undead, if your level was twice that of the undead, the undead was destroyed instead of turned, so maybe he was thinking of something like that. But I don't think there is anything in the Pathfinder rules that says this.
The DM can describe their death however they want, tbh. They can fall lifeless, glowing in a bath of divine light that snuffs out the negative energy that once propelled them. They can turn into dust, shatter, the positive energy blows them up and arms/legs/heads/torsos go flying, however you want. Maybe even have a disembodied hand that's still "alive" and crawling on the ground like Pirates of the Caribbean.
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Maybe the person questioning this played D&D 3.5 in the past. Sometimes I get D&D brain when playing Pathfinder because they are similar. In 3.5, when you turned undead, if your level was twice that of the undead, the undead was destroyed instead of turned, so maybe he was thinking of something like that. But I don't think there is anything in the Pathfinder rules that says this.
That's actually the AD&D era rule (like 1979-1999) I believe...
The DM can describe their death however they want, tbh. They can fall lifeless, glowing in a bath of divine light that snuffs out the negative energy that once propelled them. They can turn into dust, shatter, the positive energy blows them up and arms/legs/heads/torsos go flying, however you want. Maybe even have a disembodied hand that's still "alive" and crawling on the ground like Pirates of the Caribbean.
Since turning to dust could have a mechanical impact on the game (not that resurrection is really impacted), GMs should be careful about how much they deviate from the standard "It's Dead (again, in the case of the undead)" result.
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Don't know about 1e but BECMI and 2e had specific tables that showed what you needed to roll to turn which undead at a given level. If you were high enough level you didn't need to roll, or outright destroyed them.Oops, my bad:
- AD&D had the chart (which I thought had the 'destroyed if you were double the undead's level)
- D&D3.x actually had the 'do damage, and destroy them outright if you were twice their level' rule.
No, its just that you can not 'kill' something that is not 'alive' so the term 'destroyed' tends to be used for such creatures (as Pizza Lord mentioned a couple of posts back).Undead are destroyed at 0 hit points, but that doesn't mean their bodies crumble to dust (unless you want them to). The term 'destroy' is typically used for objects, constructs, undead, and buildings. The term is generally accepted that when you destroy something, it's basically unusable or worthless until it's repaired. Like a vase reduced to 0 hit points counts as destroyed, how it's described depends on how it was reduced to that state. In most cases, it will be a pile of shards but those could theoretically be put back together with make whole, same with the corpse of a destroyed undead.Just to add to this, the "undead that are reduced to 0 HP are destroyed" line is mostly to indicate that they cannot be turned back into undead again as the body's been damaged so terribly that it can no longer move even via magical animation.
That's not quite the point I was making, and there is the valid extra connection of "a destroyed undead, by whatever means, cannot be reanimated again". So even if channeling an undead to death doesn't turn it to dust, it does still cause enough damage to the body that things like muscle and skeleton structure are still inoperable.
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That's not quite the point I was making, and there is the valid extra connection of "a destroyed undead, by whatever means, cannot be reanimated again". So even if channeling an undead to death doesn't turn it to dust, it does still cause enough damage to the body that things like muscle and skeleton structure are still inoperable.No, its just that you can not 'kill' something that is not 'alive' so the term 'destroyed' tends to be used for such creatures (as Pizza Lord mentioned a couple of posts back).Undead are destroyed at 0 hit points, but that doesn't mean their bodies crumble to dust (unless you want them to). The term 'destroy' is typically used for objects, constructs, undead, and buildings. The term is generally accepted that when you destroy something, it's basically unusable or worthless until it's repaired. Like a vase reduced to 0 hit points counts as destroyed, how it's described depends on how it was reduced to that state. In most cases, it will be a pile of shards but those could theoretically be put back together with make whole, same with the corpse of a destroyed undead.Just to add to this, the "undead that are reduced to 0 HP are destroyed" line is mostly to indicate that they cannot be turned back into undead again as the body's been damaged so terribly that it can no longer move even via magical animation.
Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.
Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a physical anatomy.
"Mostly intact". Almost certainly an undead that has been destroyed isn't mostly intact. Some kinds of undead can be made from the partial remains of a creature, but most of them require a relatively intact body.
Even still, you can't make a Crawling Hand from a hand that's been smashed to bits. You can't make a Beheaded from a shattered skull, and so on. The actual part of the body has to be "intact" enough to be able to function.
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Even still, you can't make a Crawling Hand from a hand that's been smashed to bits. You can't make a Beheaded from a shattered skull, and so on. The actual part of the body has to be "intact" enough to be able to function.
I was thinking more of some incorporeal undead. If you have the right spells you can turn a badly mauled corpse into an incorporeal undead.
I think there are a couple of undead that are made from pieces of multiple corpses too.
In all instances, we are speaking of stuff that requires higher level and/or specialized spells.
I don't think you need a corpse to make incorporeals. You certainly need the soul, which the body will have lingering energy from in the same vein that you can Breath of Life someone who died very recently, but the line for "this evil spell allows you to infuse a dead body with negative energy to create more powerful sorts of undead" is in just regular Create Undead which has no incorporeals, while Greater Create Undead doesn't re-add that line (but Banshee and Witchfire admittedly have special corpse requirements).
This is essentially coming down to lore/in character justification, but I would assume even by RAW, similar to you couldn't make the already destroyed zombie into another zombie, by the time your dead female elf witch is reanimated into first a zombie (minimum 1 hour casting time), then killed, you likewise wouldn't be able to turn it into a witchfire or banshee because the soul has moved on/already been corrupted.