You have a party of four. One has darkvision, two have low-light vision, one has normal vision. You are wandering around far below ground. There may be some light here and there, but for the most part there is no light at all.
Does it make sense to put a light spell on the shield of the person who has darkvision and put her In front of the party? I'm trying to come up with a reasonable marching order for exploration, and to me this doesn't seem to be it.
Darkvision is a duskwalker fighter, normal vision is a human bard. The other two are an elf druid and a ysoki rogue. Usually, the rogue trails the party, avoiding notice, the druid and bard are in the middle, the former searching, the latter detecting magic. Fighter is defending.
How would you set it up?
Oh, the druid has a leshy familiar who has darkvision. And flight.
Definitely give it the least perceptive person who isn't stealthing.
That way, if they get separated from the dwarf or vice versa, everyone can still see. Those who rely on shadows and the like can fall back or scout ahead without needing to fear that the light will give away their position or limit opportunities for sneaking and avoiding notice.
My party once entered an abandoned mine haunted by evil spirits attraced by the death of miners in a cave-in a decade ago. The spirits, called quarrygeists, did not illuminate the mine, so the party had to provide their own light. The leshy sorcerer in the party cast Dancing Lights and would periodically move the lights forward. All of the party was good at Stealth, so they did not want to be carrying lights when they hid behind corners or in niches. Hiding in shadows would not work against creatures with darkvision. Of course, the sorcerer Sustaining the Dancing Lights was obvious due to her spellcasting, so she was safely in the back.
Everyone in the party had at least low-light vision, so I have no example of one party member with normal vision in the darkness. The gnome rogue with Umbral heritage had darkvision herself, so she scouted ahead of lighting. This worried me, because the quarrygeists had bobbytrapped the mine and she got too far ahead for the rest of the party to aid her. Fortunately, she stuck to the walls for concealment and the traps tended to be in the center of the rooms.
Don't put the light source on anyone who might want to hide. If the party has only Light instead of Dancing Lights, then carry a few rocks, cast it on a rock and throw it ahead of the party. The duskwalker fighter might be the best person for throwing the glowing rock, since she can avoid accidentally throwing it into a dark pit.
You should be able to get a Dull Grey Aeon Stone with Continual Flame cast on it, which will orbit your head no hands needed. It'd probably run you around 25gp I think?
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To me makes sense using the light cantrip on the duskwalker, even if they have darkvision.
Druid and bard use weapons or shield?
Because one of them holding an everburning torch could help.If needed, the torch can be dropped at the beginning of the encounter, lighting from that spot.
a Shield Sconce helps out as it uses the same hand as a shield.
Oh, the druid has a leshy familiar who has darkvision. And flight.
Well you COULD cast light on the familiar but that's kind of painting a target on it.
The groups I play with tend to:
- Ignore illumination entirely outside obvious questions (Do you have light? Yes, ok, so you see).
- Use dynamic lighting from Roll20 or Foundry and then it's a complete mess to see anything whatever your vision and the overall lighting.
Otherwise, if your party handles light precisely, I'd put a light spell on the Fighter so everyone can see as far as possible and a second light spell on the Bard as they're the one who absolutely need light in every circumstance (especially if the party wants to run away and as such everyone gets separated by the 75ft. 3-action Stride your light source just took).
All my casters prepare/know Light. The spell is so obviously important I don't see many competing cantrips after the attack ones.
and then it's a complete mess to see anything whatever your vision and the overall lighting.How is that?
Darkvision works perfectly on foundry, and light effects too.
Also, with the right mod, you can also peak by moving the mouse after having selected a character with normal vision, mimicking diffirent angles of vision from the same spot.
As of now, I have never played in a game where dynamic lighting was properly handled according to the rules of PF2. Vision is always calculated from the center of your square instead of all the corners and the rules for Imprecise Senses (hearing mostly) are not implemented.
The result is claustrophobic and inaccurate, forcing me to battle regularly with the GM because "No, I'm not moving, I move my token to get a clue about what's happening around my character".But I know some people like it. To each their own!
Does it make sense to put a light spell on the shield of the person who has darkvision and put her In front of the party? I'm trying to come up with a reasonable marching order for exploration, and to me this doesn't seem to be it.
Oh, the druid has a leshy familiar who has darkvision. And flight.
Since the Light spell targets an object the familiar itself isn’t viable. Also as the light spell casts light in all directions from the object it is cast on I wouldn’t want my entire shield lit up. Turn off all the lights in a room and turn your tablet to full brightness on a white screen facing your direction (okay I know real world vs pathfinder but).
If the shield has a Boss or Spikes I would cast light on that. Party gets a nice headlight up front and lots of shadows for everyone to work with.
and then it's a complete mess to see anything whatever your vision and the overall lighting.How is that?
Darkvision works perfectly on foundry, and light effects too.
I think they are referring to the shadow effects where you can’t see things based on your position that may change your plans. Like a hallway (wall, door, or the like) you can’t see until you complete your movement, but would be readily visible after the first 5 feet. Or your party moves up to an encounter around a corner, only one PC has sight around the corner maybe they are on the far side of the hallway you are in, maybe the just have an extra 5 foot speed. The GM then end has to describe everything each time a PC gets vision around the corner.
Maybe your GM hasn't updated in a while?
GMs. But I can't tell you as I don't know Foundry myself. I just play with what they give me.
The latest big update added vision modes, with imprecise hearing as a default.
Does it turn corners? Or is it just built the same way than vision?
They haven't added vision from every corner of your square yet though.
My biggest gripe. You can be adjacent to an enemy and don't even see it. It makes me crazy.
I think they are referring to the shadow effects where you can’t see things based on your position that may change your plans.
No, it's not that. It's really the lines of sight that are completely messed up. Roughly, anything with at least cover from you is not shown. So you have an atrophied vision and can't sometimes see an enemy who's adjacent to you...
As far as I can tell, imprecise senses go through and around terrain, unless you set the terrain to block it.The latest big update added vision modes, with imprecise hearing as a default.Does it turn corners? Or is it just built the same way than vision?
Ok, great. Maybe is it just that I have played with the old version then. Or that my GMs forgot to add Hearing to my character.
Well, it was a design choice to reduce the required computation and prevent gaps in LoS, but it seems to be RAW for PF2e. Cover and such is determined center of token to center of token, and I can't find anything that says line of sight is any different.
They haven't added vision from every corner of your square yet though.My biggest gripe. You can be adjacent to an enemy and don't even see it. It makes me crazy.
Cover is determined from your center but line of sight isn't. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to perceive anything with Cover/Greater Cover from you, that would be really problematic (and that's actually what I faced on Foundry).
Also, vision allows you to perceive far more than just the square of a creature. Actually, you should be able to perceive anything as long as you see a threatened square, as one's reach is something very much visible: I don't need to see the Barbarian to know where he is as long as I see the tip of his blade butchering our Paladin.
Anyway, maybe the solution is the management of Imprecise Hearing. I'll see with my GMs to add that.
Ok, great. Maybe is it just that I have played with the old version then. Or that my GMs forgot to add Hearing to my character.
One of the things I like about Harnmaster is that it has more attributes -- at least 15 by my count -- than D20 systems. Hearing is one of them. :-)
In Pathfinder terms, every PC has hearing as an imprecise sense, or so it seems to me. So including it in a character's stats seems like a no-brainer, in spite of the fact(?) that most player characters won't have occasion to use it most of the time because they're relying on sight, their primary sense.
in spite of the fact(?) that most player characters won't have occasion to use it most of the time because they're relying on sight, their primary sense.
Hearing is not blocked by walls and doors (at least not entirely). So it allows you to perceive what's behind the corner or inside the room through the open door. If you are in tight space, like a dungeon, it gives a lot of information. It isn't used to target monsters (at least not often) but it's the primary sense to locate things around you. And that's the point that feel (or felt) clunky in Foundry and Roll20.
Not familiar enough with Foundry yet to address that point. Not familiar with Roll20 at all, except that I know what it is. :-)
On the original topic, generally you want whoever will stick closest to the action to have a light. A ranged character in darkness can still fire on an illuminated target. Light spells are best used on melee characters without a spare hand for a torch. People with free hands may want to carry a torch themselves, while sneaky types want to be sticking to the shadows.
Well, I guess what kind of threw me in this case is that the character who will stick closest to the action, the fighter, doesn't need the light -- she has Darkvision. So what we have in effect is the light shining (mostly) forward from the shield of the person in front of the group.
Put it this way: if you put a candle, or a torch, in the middle of a room, and it distributes light in a 20 foot circle, then everywhere in that circle is in full light. If you put a light source on the front of a shield being carried by someone, the light will be blocked to at least some extent by the shield and/or the person, so you don't get that circle of full illumination. Or do you? Doesn't seem to me like you should, but maybe RAW says different.
Maybe the Druid should get a Staff of Illumination to go with his Staff of Healing. :-)
Well, I guess what kind of threw me in this case is that the character who will stick closest to the action, the fighter, doesn't need the light -- she has Darkvision. So what we have in effect is the light shining (mostly) forward from the shield of the person in front of the group.
Put it this way: if you put a candle, or a torch, in the middle of a room, and it distributes light in a 20 foot circle, then everywhere in that circle is in full light. If you put a light source on the front of a shield being carried by someone, the light will be blocked to at least some extent by the shield and/or the person, so you don't get that circle of full illumination. Or do you? Doesn't seem to me like you should, but maybe RAW says different.
That's why darkvision has limited utility for non-stealth characters, especially if the rest of the party lacks it. The casters probably don't want to be in melee but if they are carrying the torch they have a 50% mischance targeting anything further than 40 feet away.
Also you can't use two staffs at once. They should stick to their staff of healing and get an ever burning torch, or one of the many other manner of magical or mundane lighting for the other hand. Being lit up themselves is probably safer in case something closes on them.
If you want the full circle of illumination you can cast it on the fighter's hat.
I didn't say anything about using two staves at once, only carrying two. Use them one at a time. Or are you saying there's a rule against that? If so, cite please.
Far as I know the fighter's not wearing a hat.
I didn't say anything about using two staves at once, only carrying two. Use them one at a time. Or are you saying there's a rule against that? If so, cite please.
Far as I know the fighter's not wearing a hat.
You can carry two, but you wouldn't be able to use them both in the same day. Under Preparing a Staff "No one can prepare more than one staff per day, nor can a staff be prepared by more than one person per day"
So you can carry around an animal staff and a divination staff, but each morning you'd pick which is invested.
What in wondering is whether anyone has found a tactical advantage in using a bullseye lantern over a regular lantern. In a game without facing it is kind of odd. The one usage I can think of is burglary-- exploring an unoccupied room so your light doesn't shine through the nearest door or window. But I can't see the usage for combat or normal dungeon exploration.
What in wondering is whether anyone has found a tactical advantage in using a bullseye lantern over a regular lantern. In a game without facing it is kind of odd. The one usage I can think of is burglary-- exploring an unoccupied room so your light doesn't shine through the nearest door or window. But I can't see the usage for combat or normal dungeon exploration.
I always take a Bull's Eye Lantern. I use it to avoid alerting everyone around when the party decides to be stealthy. As a GM, I wouldn't accept a party to be stealthy with a 360° lantern giving them away.
During combat, on the other hand, there's not much interest.
I didn't say anything about using two staves at once, only carrying two. Use them one at a time. Or are you saying there's a rule against that? If so, cite please.
Far as I know the fighter's not wearing a hat.
You can carry two, but you wouldn't be able to use them both in the same day. Under Preparing a Staff "No one can prepare more than one staff per day, nor can a staff be prepared by more than one person per day"
So you can carry around an animal staff and a divination staff, but each morning you'd pick which is invested.
Ah. I'd forgotten that rule.
Oh, the druid has a leshy familiar who has darkvision. And flight.Well you COULD cast light on the familiar but that's kind of painting a target on it.
I've had reasonably good experience with giving the familiar manual dexterity and a Light infused object. If needed, the familiar can be told to drop the lit object and run for it.
I don't see any argument by RAW that should be the case at all.
The rules about Imprecise and Vague Senses cover that case. It's definitely RAW to know more than what's in your direct line of sight.
And if its not RAW I don't know why it would be supported by Foundry.
Perception of the environment is a core component of a VTT. If the difference between what the character perceives and what the player sees is too big, you end up in situations like the ones I'm used to, where you move your token around just to get an idea of what's happening.
Ultimately, one of my GMs gave all characters' vision to players. It was closer to what actually perceive the characters.But that has nothing to do with the client illuminating less than it should.
It is not directly linked to lighting. But I've never seen a game where the lighting was handled dynamically and the lines of sight by another system (like for of war). I guess they are linked, but I can't be sure.
Hm. Can the Druid have his leshy familiar Scout as an Exploration activity? With Darkvision and flight he'd seem to be the best choice for a scout - especially as the actual PCs don't seem inclined to take on that job.
Hm. Can the Druid have his leshy familiar Scout as an Exploration activity? With Darkvision and flight he'd seem to be the best choice for a scout - especially as the actual PCs don't seem inclined to take on that job.
The general consensus seems to be "no" on account of characters only being able to perform a single encounter activity at a time unless they have feats or special abilities that say otherwise (such as the summoner and his eidolon.
I suppose you might be able to get your GM to allow it, provided your character is not also performing an exploration activity.
Worth noting things like flight don't impact the exploration tactic known as Scout. It really should be called Look Out, because it doesn't really resemble scouting in the traditional sense. Scouting in the traditional sense is actually someone Avoiding Notice far enough ahead of the the party to where the other people don't need to make stealth checks.
Whether a familiar can do THAT or not is subject to massive table variance.
Oh, well. :-)