... Peanut butter and beef?
Bards are supporty but they get strong support options for 'free', inspire courage and the occult spell list are automatic.
The loss of powerful snares is a bummer though.
Bard by itself has so much support potential that the only feats you actually need to care about are lingering composition (free from maestro muse) and dirge of doom (level 6). You can optimize more, obviously, but as long as you've got those you're basically set as far as baseline usefulness goes.
So go ahead. Go snarecrafter and hide them with illusions. So long as you open fights with lingering inspire or dirge, you're doing your job.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not having powerful snares is fine because you really should just use the highest level snares available because they deal the most damage.
The make or break thing for Snares is whether you'll get the chance to scout out enemies, set them up ahead of time, and then lure enemies into them. Setting them up even at 3 actions isn't worth it, especially if the enemy sees you plant it. If your party has the abilities and temperament to use for this, snares are absolutely worth it.
... Peanut butter and beef?
Bards are supporty but they get strong support options for 'free', inspire courage and the occult spell list are automatic.
The loss of powerful snares is a bummer though.
Peanuts and peanut sauces combined with beef is more common in recipes than you'd think. Also, if you have never had a burger with peanut butter as a topping I highly recommend it.
But I digress. If I'm understanding correctly, so long as I have Inspire Courage and Lingering Composition I'm all good, right?
That plus Dirge of Doom is what Gesalt is saying you need. To be clear, though, Snarecrafting is an out of combat activity, so you should have other things to do with your turns, like luring enemies with Illusory creatures when snares are down or just generally being an occult spell caster when they are not.
I wouldn't be able to use Powerful Snares, so I don't know if that renders the entire concept moot just on that hiccup alone.
Powerful Snares is a math fix that keeps lower level snares useful. Which is nice in getting the type of snare you want.
As far as I can tell you can accumulate the free snares over multiple days. Is that right?
So the main effect of Powerful Snares will be as a math fixer for level gaps and not requiring you to find new formula every level.
As far as I can tell you can accumulate the free snares over multiple days. Is that right?No. While it seems there's no such language as for alchemist's reagents in the books, in PFS it definitely won't work:
The snares created with the Snare Genius kobold ancestry feat (page 15) are temporary items and become unusable after 24 hours or during your next daily preparations, whichever comes first.It seems they forgot about the same QDS snares in Ranger and Snarecrafter feats.
Thanks. I do tend to play with the PFS rulings. But why nothing on the other too. Seems odd. It is the sort of balance limit they normally put on temporary consumables. I would assume it should be on everything.
The loss of powerful snares is a bummer though.There's no loss though. Snarecrafter gets Powerful snares at 10th level.
Level 10 is not a place to put math fixes. This should be a feature of the dedication feats not hidden away at level 10. Half the game is gone by then.
Powerful Snares is a trap feat (lol, see what I did there?) No, seriously, it is bad. The best Snares are the straight damage dealers, which means you should always use the highest level available because it gets the most damage dice. And the DCs on those are already competitive with your class DC.
There are various control snares which are neat, tripping, immobilizing, or slowing fores down... but they have so little effect on successful saves compared to the damage a basic reflex save deals you should very rarely bother. Especially because big dumb enemies might plow through multiple snares and eviscerate themselves, and smart enemies are already going to stop and waste actions seeking because they don't know if there are more snares and they just took 11d8 damage from one.
There are utility snares too, things like Alarm Snares and Marking Snares, but if you're using those instead of damaging snares you're probably dealing with under leveled fragile foes anyway. At which point the low DCs likely matter much less.
The other advantage would be if you wanted to lay just a ton of cheap snares, but I struggle to name situations where you'd want to do that instead of a few powerful free snares, especially when snares don't expire and you can spend multiple days laying them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A-a-and...
The loss of powerful snares is a bummer though.There's no loss though. Snarecrafter gets Powerful snares at 10th level.
Powerful Snares scales off your class DC, which Bards don't have. They can technically take the feat but it's bad.
Level 10 is not a place to put math fixes. This should be a feature of the dedication feats not hidden away at level 10. Half the game is gone by then.The loss of powerful snares is a bummer though.There's no loss though. Snarecrafter gets Powerful snares at 10th level.Ehm. But Powerful snares is 8th level at the base. Not much difference.
And I think that immobilizing and other good controlling snares are useful, so the feat should be helpful (this is mostly to Captain Morgan).
I suspect that the main problem for snares at high levels is flying enemies (and floating/otherwise immune). What is the percentage btw, have someone estimated?
Eh, flying enemies aren't really a problem so much as terrain. Maps tend to get bigger at higher levels which makes it harder to funnel enemies through specific choke points.
The problem with the control snares is they cost an enemy an action or two if they fail, but inflict a minor speed penalty on a success. Meanwhile a damaging snare still does significant damage damage on a save. From level 8 onwards Striking Snare start dealing 9d8, average 45 damage, with a basic reflex save. You can get a large enemy to charge through multiple snares they may crit fail against one and take truly absurd damage.
But even if you prefer the control effects, those still get better with higher level versions as well. Compare a level 4 Hobbling Snare to a level 10 Binding Snare. There's no reason to ever go back.
I also want to remphasize the psychological value of damaging snares. If I am charging an enemy and running into snares which just slow me down by hampering my movement, immobilizing me, or knocking me prone, I'm not necessarily going to spend actions Seeking because I might lose just as many actions doing that as I'd lose on Escaping or Standing or whatever.
But if I'm a level 10 character and I just took 90 damage from stepping in a square, I just lost half my hit points and will probably spend those actions.
Similarly, an alarm spell will alert the party that a wolf is creeping up on their camp site... But so will that wolf yelping in pain as it gets hit with a bunch of rocks. And said wolf might very just retreat from that if it isn't killed outright.
Damaging snares are SCARY and NPCs should treat them with fear and respect.
Is a kobold bard with Snarecrafting viable?
Of course it is. Unlike 1st Edition where there were a great deal of trap options, nearly everything in 2e is viable. The developers took much greater care when laying out the system mechanics this time around.
To make a character that isn't viable, I'd dare say you'd have to deliberately aiming for that result (such as by playing an 8 intelligence wizard or an 8 strength barbarian, for example).
As helpful as those guides are for some people, they do tend to skew people's perceptions away from just how truly balanced and wonderful the 2nd Edition mechanics have become. They also encourage cookie-cutter clones in a system where nearly every option just works.
But if I'm a level 10 character and I just took 90 damage from stepping in a square, I just lost half my hit points and will probably spend those actions.
Similarly, an alarm spell will alert the party that a wolf is creeping up on their camp site... But so will that wolf yelping in pain as it gets hit with a bunch of rocks. And said wolf might very just retreat from that if it isn't killed outright.
Damaging snares are SCARY and NPCs should treat them with fear and respect.
Probably a good idea to talk to the GM about that so everyone is on the same page regarding expectations before investing heavily into snares.
I mean, if your NPCs don't fear and respect snares, then they will just charge into multiple of them. I've seen some ogre barbarian bosses die before even reaching the party.
The big thing you need to work out is if you'll ever have the opportunity to plant snares. You need the right kind of terrain and intelligence to make it work.
Powerful Snares scales off your class DC, which Bards don't have. They can technically take the feat but it's bad.That's not the problem of Powerful snares, but of undefined class DCs and class DCs being a general mess. Which must be solved by a GM. And eventually by Paizo, I hope. But temporary solutions are possible nevertheless.
Most GMs are going to use spell DC as class DC. Which is more or less the accepted solution for this category of problems.
Level 10 is not a place to put math fixes. This should be a feature of the dedication feats not hidden away at level 10. Half the game is gone by then.The loss of powerful snares is a bummer though.There's no loss though. Snarecrafter gets Powerful snares at 10th level.Ehm. But Powerful snares is 8th level at the base. Not much difference.
And I think that immobilizing and other good controlling snares are useful, so the feat should be helpful (this is mostly to Captain Morgan).
I suspect that the main problem for snares at high levels is flying enemies (and floating/otherwise immune). What is the percentage btw, have someone estimated?
Eh, flying enemies aren't really a problem so much as terrain. Maps tend to get bigger at higher levels which makes it harder to funnel enemies through specific choke points.
The problem with the control snares is they cost an enemy an action or two if they fail, but inflict a minor speed penalty on a success. Meanwhile a damaging snare still does significant damage damage on a save. From level 8 onwards Striking Snare start dealing 9d8, average 45 damage, with a basic reflex save. You can get a large enemy to charge through multiple snares they may crit fail against one and take truly absurd damage.
But even if you prefer the control effects, those still get better with higher level versions as well. Compare a level 4 Hobbling Snare to a level 10 Binding Snare. There's no reason to ever go back.
It is that the DCs are tied to formulas. You have to learn new formulas. Not every formula is available at every level. There are gaps. Fixing the DC enables specific snares you want to be available at the level you want.
It is that the DCs are tied to formulas. You have to learn new formulas. Not every formula is available at every level. There are gaps. Fixing the DC enables specific snares you want to be available at the level you want.Level 10 is not a place to put math fixes. This should be a feature of the dedication feats not hidden away at level 10. Half the game is gone by then.The loss of powerful snares is a bummer though.There's no loss though. Snarecrafter gets Powerful snares at 10th level.Ehm. But Powerful snares is 8th level at the base. Not much difference.
And I think that immobilizing and other good controlling snares are useful, so the feat should be helpful (this is mostly to Captain Morgan).
I suspect that the main problem for snares at high levels is flying enemies (and floating/otherwise immune). What is the percentage btw, have someone estimated?
Eh, flying enemies aren't really a problem so much as terrain. Maps tend to get bigger at higher levels which makes it harder to funnel enemies through specific choke points.
The problem with the control snares is they cost an enemy an action or two if they fail, but inflict a minor speed penalty on a success. Meanwhile a damaging snare still does significant damage damage on a save. From level 8 onwards Striking Snare start dealing 9d8, average 45 damage, with a basic reflex save. You can get a large enemy to charge through multiple snares they may crit fail against one and take truly absurd damage.
But even if you prefer the control effects, those still get better with higher level versions as well. Compare a level 4 Hobbling Snare to a level 10 Binding Snare. There's no reason to ever go back.
There are very few gaps at this point. There is a damaging snare at almost every level, and the DCs are often higher than your class DC at a given level anyway. (Well, depending on your progression anyway. I'm looking at rangers for the comparison.)
Like, the feat doesn't hurt per se, but you're better off getting more snares than worrying about being 1 behind on a DC at a few random levels. It certainly isn't something the archetype needs to be functional.
You need the right kind of terrain and intelligence to make it work.I actually assume that they always work. Because there's no written reason they don't. On a clean stone floor. In line of sight. Otherwise they ARE a waste. How this is explained is a very minor problem, which is not a problem. By handwavium, if needed. "He just lost something on a floor" "That's just some junk, I'm sure" "She is just so clumsy and dropped random stuff" "It's just their bag clearly" "There's nothing here at all" and so on
So even on a flat stone floor, even in line of sight of enemies they DON'T automatically understand that's a trap. They do have a reason to Seek by general rules, sure. And maybe avoid this square. But nothing more. And they must generally react the same if it was just some suspicious junk, of course.
I don't mean needing brush to hide the snares in. When I say terrain I mean you need a map layout/encounter design that lets you spot the next encounter without being seen, a choke point the enemy will naturally funnel through, and an opportunity to set the snares in said choke point without being noticed.
Snares do you zero good if your GM constantly ambushes you, or if your maps are so open you can't predict where the enemy will go. Whether or not it happens in a forest or in a temple doesn't matter per se. Though Terrain Stalker is the most reliable way to set them up.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Though Terrain Stalker is the most reliable way to set [snares] up.
Doesn't Terrain Stalker let you move closer AND NOTHING ELSE? Sneaking about only allows very specific actions (namely Sneak and Stealth), plus whatever the GM thinks you can do without giving away your position.
I sure hope the GM is on your side, otherwise, I don't think you can set snares while being stealthy.
Powerful Snares scales off your class DC, which Bards don't have. They can technically take the feat but it's bad.That's not the problem of Powerful snares, but of undefined class DCs and class DCs being a general mess. Which must be solved by a GM. And eventually by Paizo, I hope. But temporary solutions are possible nevertheless.Most GMs are going to use spell DC as class DC. Which is more or less the accepted solution for this category of problems.
*Laughs evil GM laugh*
*Abruptly stops*
No.
Snares do you zero good if your GM constantly ambushes you, or if your maps are so open you can't predict where the enemy will go. Whether or not it happens in a forest or in a temple doesn't matter per se. Though Terrain Stalker is the most reliable way to set them up.
I think they work fine if you can force you enemy to come to you by having superior ranged fire as a party. Many monsters have to close to melee.
If you can control which squares they move through, that is a potential advantage. Even if they don't set off the traps.
Conversely snares are of much less use if you have a couple of melee only characters in your party.
Though Terrain Stalker is the most reliable way to set [snares] up.Doesn't Terrain Stalker let you move closer AND NOTHING ELSE? Sneaking about only allows very specific actions (namely Sneak and Stealth), plus whatever the GM thinks you can do without giving away your position.
I sure hope the GM is on your side, otherwise, I don't think you can set snares while being stealthy.
Let me rephrase. Terrain Stalker is the most reliable way to set up the situations snares flourish in: fully scouted encounters. Regardless of whether you can set the snares while Terrain Stalking, to reliably use them you need to know where the enemies are, where they will go, and still have time to plant the snare before initiative is rolled. Terrain Stalker is the best way to spy on enemies undetected barring powerful magic or generous familiar rules.
I think they work fine if you can force you enemy to come to you by having superior ranged fire as a party. Many monsters have to close to melee.
If you can control which squares they move through, that is a potential advantage. Even if they don't set off the traps.
Not until Lightning Snares. If the enemy sees you do it, you're trading at least 3 actions (4+ if you need to move into position) to deny them 1 square they can probably jump over. 3 actions means giving up a full round of damage as a martial (really rough on the flurry ranger in particular) and casters have much stronger area denial options. Also, building the snare requires a check, meaning unless you have Assurance and an under-leveled option you can fail and waste all three actions.
Worse yet, you're wasting the Snare. You only get so many in a day and they are, as I keep mentioning, super freaking powerful. Planting one in combat with the intention of not triggering it is like firing your top level damaging spell into the air in the hopes enemies back down. There's more efficient ways to achieve that goal.
Lightning Snares totally changes the game, but that's level 12 or 14, at which means you're contending with late game options.
I'm not suggesting you are doing it with actions in combat. Prior to Lightning Snares it is best value before the encounter starts.
I'm not suggesting you are doing it with actions in combat. Prior to Lightning Snares it is best value before the encounter starts.
So was your response to me there agreeing with my point? I guess I misunderstood your meaning.
Also, building the snare requires a check, meaning unless you have Assurance and an under-leveled option you can fail and waste all three actions.
You do know that Powerful Snares can solve this problem? Droping the difficultly of the check to craft, while leaving the DC of the trap high enough to be useful.
The crafting check is a big problem for a Bard, and a Ranger too as it is intelligence based.
I'm thinking that Assurance with Crafting and Powerful Snares is the best way to get snares that will work at a competitive DC. With slightly reduced damage. But no major investment in Intelligence. Which is a big cost for either of those characters.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What do you mean here? Do most GMs just make this and other feats like that completely non-working like Squiggit assumes?No.Most GMs are going to use spell DC as class DC. Which is more or less the accepted solution for this category of problems.
I mean that I as a GM would not allow someone to substitute Class DC for Spell DC or vice versa unless a rule specifically allowed for it.
I'd like to note a few things here that are likely to be pertinent.
- You don't need nearly as much control of where the enemy is going if you also have someone in the party who's good at moving the enemy around. Having your monk friend whirling throw the enemy directly onto a trap is good clean fun for all involved.
- Dropping snares in general is going to require 3 actions. Bards rather like having one action per round to do their singing with (though, yes, lingering composition and similar effects can help here)
- You *really should* talk with your GM about this at first. It's nto just the "are snares magically invisible?" question. There are GMs out there who will route around snares just by reflex every time, even if the monsters have no way of legitimately knowing where the snare was... at least if it's at all plausible that hey would have done so... and whether or not the monsters check for snares might coincide pretty heavily with whether or not there are snares there to be found. It's not right or fair, but it totally does happen. There are GMs out there who will route monsters into snares if it's at all plausible. You'll want to know where your personal GM is on *that* bias scale, too.
The relevant questions are probably-
-Are snares going to be useful in the game- if you never have time to set them up because you're moving forward, and enemies step carefully around them, then the problem is less "can bards be good with snares" than "are snares useful." This is the sort of thing you need to figure out in session 0.
- What is a regular three action round going to look like for you? A regular Bard turn is something like 1 action for a composition cantrip + 2 actions for a spell. When snares get down to <3 actions (like level 14) that's going end up playing very differently than before. You definitely will want lingering composition if you want to rig snares in the middle of combat.
The class I think might work better here is the Summoner actually since the Summoner has tremendous flexibility in action use- even if you spend 3 actions to rig a snare your Eidolon gets one action, and if you want to move to the spot you're going to set it up next round then your Eidolon can have three actions. The problem is that the Summoner has fewer feats to give than the Bard.
The problem is that the Summoner has fewer feats to give than the Bard.
Oh yeah no kidding. Like, the Summoner is one of the classes where I seriously want to take more feats in-class than they get... and that's without spending any on the spellcasting.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I mean that I as a GM would not allow someone to substitute Class DC for Spell DC or vice versa unless a rule specifically allowed for it.Ok. So what DO you do in this situation (base class doesn't have class DC and some archetype demands it without giving it)?
I'd warn off such a character from taking the option in the first place.
If it caught our table by surprise, I'd allow immediate, free retraining. And if they're quick about it, a different course of action.
Like the basic thing about snares is that they're not generally applicable in a "if we open the door, we're going to see monsters in the next room who we will then fight" sort of situation when the PCs are actually trying to go into the next room, and beyond.
You can put some snares near the door, open the door, then try to bait them inside but that's not going to be super-reliable (particularly if the opposition is simply interested in keeping you getting any further than you have.)
Whoooo boy, this thread got a lot more attention than I thought it would have.
In any case, I guess the main takeaway for me here is that Powerful Snares isn't mandatory and to talk with the GM beforehand if there would ever be opportunities to set them up before encounters and if enemies would route around them by default (or just try to throw the party into them whenever possible). So long as they're not completely worthless all the time then I think I'll go for it. Maybe I'm just too paranoid from my previous games in PF1 and other systems.
We just haven't talked about it in detail before, and people are playing it differently.
True Powerful Snares is not technically mandatory. But it is useful as discussed.
So long as they're not completely worthless
They have a role, but not in every situation. I still think you want your party to have good ranged attacks, but that is desirable anyway.
if enemies would route around them by default
What people seem to be missing from other comments is that Snares are designed to be placed in the battle field. There is no requirement for particular terrain or cover. Snares are automatically disguised. Though I imagine you need to decide its appearance.
But more importantly If your proficiency rank is expert or better in Crafting, only creatures actively searching can find your snaresSo unless they take an action to search you enemy doesn't now its there. Though they may have seen you place the snare and be aware something is there.
So enemies routing around them by default is wrong. They need a reason first.
Like the basic thing about snares is that they're not generally applicable in a "if we open the door, we're going to see monsters in the next room who we will then fight" sort of situation when the PCs are actually trying to go into the next room, and beyond.
You can put some snares near the door, open the door, then try to bait them inside but that's not going to be super-reliable (particularly if the opposition is simply interested in keeping you getting any further than you have.)
Yes but Snares are cheap. You have a lot more of them than top level spell slots. 4 from each of 2 feats, 3 from an ancestry feat, another feat to add that number again, and it goes up with your skill rank. 22 by level 12 is possible, and you can always pay for more. That is probably more than you will need.
This is why you need good ranged attacks, a few throwable alchemical items to encourage them to move, casters have ways of making an enemy leave a fixed position even without line of site. Yes it won't always work - that would be boring and broken, but it should work some times.
I mean that I as a GM would not allow someone to substitute Class DC for Spell DC or vice versa unless a rule specifically allowed for it.Ok. So what DO you do in this situation (base class doesn't have class DC and some archetype demands it without giving it)?I'd warn off such a character from taking the option in the first place.
If it caught our table by surprise, I'd allow immediate, free retraining. And if they're quick about it, a different course of action.
Yes you are right of course. Spell DC and Class DC are different, technically the full casters don't have a Class DC and can't effectively use powers that require it. A large portion of gaming groups just miss this and think it is the same thing (there are some wording problems in the books which have been errated, some powers have this as a work around anyway) Personally I don't see it as significant at all till the caster gets to Legendary at very high level, I just gloss over it. I don't really see the point in denying these options to casters if they want to pay for them like everyone else.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So you've made this option useless. Bad choice. But noted.
That seems like an unfair way to describe RD choosing not to houserule the feat to make it stronger. RD certainly didn't "make" the feat work the way it did.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That seems like an unfair way to describe RD choosing not to houserule the feat to make it stronger. RD certainly didn't "make" the feat work the way it did.
So you've made this option useless. Bad choice. But noted.Fixing obviously broken and extremely easily mendable things is kind of responsibility of a GM. So no, I don't see it as unfair at all. We all know this and nuances of this, but I'd remind you:
If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.
Don't tell me that this feat was intended to not work for a lot of classes, please.
Checking back, most archetypes that have Class DC powers either grant the character a Class DC in the dedication feat - check out the multiclass dedications, or allow them to use Spell DC instead of the Class DC. There are very few situations like Powerful Snares. Snarecrafter Dedication does not grant a class DC. This is clearly a situation that needs errata.
One of these two normal options is reasonable. I don't see that no fix is a reasonable choice.
I see powerful snare somehow mandatory by the level you get it, mostly because the more you level up, the less the snares you'll get.
You'll also be stuck with specific snares, because you have to always go for the max DC you have, so it comes in handy being able to either get the max DC available, as well as choose between a larger pool of snares.
Obviously, you won't pick up lvl 1 snares at lvl 15, but being able to opt for a lvl 14 or 13, if required, while giving them the DC of a lvl 15 is IMO gold either for flavor purposes and versatility.
Lvl 10 class feats are in a bad spot as there are plenty of possibilities for either class and archetypes, but if you are lucky enough to be played with FA you won't have to worry about it that much.
What bothers me the most is how to deal with them during combat.
They are obviously supposed to be used as combat actions, but I expect a load of party trying to exploit it in the same way. Putting them on hallways, concealing them, and luring enemies there in order to trick them into huge free damage.
Plus, I have seen many players going for an indefinite number of snares in the same spot, making the damage *2/3/4, while every single damaging spell we have always points out that enemies caught by multiple hits don't get hot multiple times.
I like snares effects, but they are not balanced when it comes down to in combat placement, and they may end up being a total exploit if used outside the combat.
I think they could have been way better ( though it's always up to the DM how they can be used or not).
Woah dude. I disagree with every single thing you wrote there.