TheOneGargoyle wrote: Hmmm ... I'm very keenly interested in this conversation.
Squiggit & HumbleGamer, you both sound as if you are speaking from actual play experience with Iron Magus which is bang on what I was hoping for from this thread.
Would you be so kind as to go into a little more detail as to the experiences you're describing ? Any info you can give would be very much appreciated.
Esp to questions like:
How often were you finding the temp hps really seemed to make a difference ? How often were you entering cascade ? Did you find cascade difficult to find the action for to activate ? Did you do it early and often or only when it seemed necessary or you had actions to spare ? Where there any build options that made it more effective ? Does the Witch Life boost really make much of a difference (isn't it only 8hp of healing?) ? Does it rely on being paired with a spell slot for Stoneskin ? Did it work well at low levels or only high ?
Back to your original post
Quote: Human Iron Magus (Str/Con) w/ Wizard FA, and Athletics + guisarme for tripping
Catfolk Thaumaturge (Cha/Dex) w/ Regalia, and Intimidate for Demoralize and Thievery for traps
Gnome Witch (Int/Wis) w/ Druid FA, and Crafting & Medicine
You are going to be 2 melee ( thaumaturge and magus) and a ranged ( witch).
I don't remember the witch tradition, but if anything but arcane, they are able to provide some healings ( there's also life boost that can be used).
Overall, it's usually ( I'd say always, but let's leave some room for other interpretations) better to be damage oriented than stacking up defensive stuff.
If the enemy goes down sooner, the damage they won't do would count as DR for the party after all.
I think the best you can do is to stick with inexorable iron and get the psychic dedication to get either an extra focus point and a damaging focus spell, available at least once per combat.
You can consider enhancing it with a familiar ( familiar focus) and, eventually, adopted ancestry gnome, for an extra refocus.
This would allow at early levels to use 2* spell strike with a big focus spell per encounter for 4 times.
E1: 3/3 > 1/3
E2: Refocus 2/3 > 0/3
E3: Refocus + Familiar focus 2/3 > 0/3
E4: Refocus + Gnome refocus 2/3 > 0/3
Stoneskin is imo always a good spell worth the slot, even at lower levels.
Apart from the psychic dedication, I'd get the mauler one for critical specialization with 2 handed weapons and power attack ( and brutal finish by lvl 14 ). Being able to alternate power attack with spell strike ( though you'd mostly alternate spell strike with 2*strikes ) is nice.
To strictly answer your questions:
- temp hp are great. Free extra health which helps with surviving. It doesn't involve any action, so they are even better.
- cascade is easy to activate ( I use it not so offer with my party though ), but it mostly depends on the party. If you cast a cantrip and then activate cadcade on round 1, you'll make it hard for the thaumaturge to charge ( they'd be there alone on the first round) for example. Depends how the party want to work. But given the magus action economy, I think I'd always activate it on round 1.
- magus doesn't have actions to spare, unless maybe if quickened, but I'd try to have cascade active with the inexorable iron magus.
- stoneskin and life boost + temp hp ( there's also shield cantrip if you want) are a good combination of defensive buffs. Pretty split. But I'd invest my own focus points in damaging focus spells rather than life boost.
I think that's it.
I suggest to also try to make some white room scenario ( you can use roll20) just to simulate the magus action management in terms of movement, recharge, true strike+spell strike, activation of cascade, etc... It would help you realizing what you want and what you don't.
Ps: Consider also that If the witch in your party gets life boost, they'd be probably able to sustain you with just life boost for what concerns +0/+1 encounters, allowing themselves to blast or do other stuff.
But that's something you can work out with your witch. I have no clue what they're going to play apart from them being a witch with druid FA.
aobst128 wrote: I see laughing shadow as the better melee option since it has the best conflux spell. You don't even need to use a one handed weapon with it. Start with a 2 handed bastard sword and drop a hand if you decide to activate cascade. Hi Aobst128, this is the other option I'm seriously considering.
Have you had any experience playing this build ? If so, what was it like in play ? Did you enjoy it ?
Lollerabe wrote: That it stacks with fast healing is nice, I'll give you that.
My issue with small amounts of thp is the same as Ninja disscribed. There's a risk that it doesn't change anything, quite often.
I have a similar beef with small amounts of aoe/splash (like the inexorable conflux spell). If the splash damg doesn't kill a mook, nor changes the threshold needed to kill it - by reducing the amount of hits needed from X to X-1, then it didn't actually do anything.
Either way, I'm not offering anything new to this thread anymore. Thanks for a lively debate people and best of luck to you gargoyle.
If your last ttrpg was 5e I'm sure you'll enjoy the Magus. It's a Gish that actually plays like one at it's baseline. And it's just imo one of the cooler classes there is.
Oh and just to dispell any overall concern:
The Magus is still considered one of the stronger post CRB martials. So you will definitely pull your weight and pack a punch.
Awesome! Thanks so much for all your input & thoughts Lollerabe. It's very much appreciated !
I'm so happy to hear you say all of this :-)
HumbleGamer wrote:
Back to your original post
Quote: Human Iron Magus (Str/Con) w/ Wizard FA, and Athletics + guisarme for tripping
Catfolk Thaumaturge (Cha/Dex) w/ Regalia, and Intimidate for Demoralize and Thievery for traps
Gnome Witch (Int/Wis) w/ Druid FA, and Crafting & Medicine
You are going to be 2 melee ( thaumaturge and magus) and a ranged ( witch).
I don't remember the witch tradition, but if anything but arcane, they are able to provide some healings ( there's also life boost that can be used).
Overall, it's usually ( I'd say always, but let's leave some room for other interpretations) better to be damage oriented than stacking up defensive stuff.
If the enemy goes down sooner, the damage they won't do would count as DR for the party after all.
I think the best you can do is to stick with inexorable iron and get the psychic dedication to get either an extra focus point and a damaging focus spell, available at least once per combat.
You can consider enhancing it with a familiar ( familiar focus) and,...
Yes the thaumaturge has changed and is now going to try weapon as the first implement, so yes, we'll definitely both be melee. So I'm thinking an option for us to try out will be Shield + Cascade + Stride into melee with them and try to set up flanking for T2. Maybe.
And yes the Witch is going Curse so will have Occult.
All of your suggestions sound good to me. Thanks so much for the help, I'm super grateful :-)
The biggest gripe I have with conflux spells is that they all include an attack, which cripples your MAP.
So:
- On rounds you spellstrike, you shouldn't use it.
- On rounds you don't spellstrike, you don't suffer as much from action economy, and you can afford to waste an action to recharge instead of wasting an action AND a focus point - which are way more useful unloading damage.
Also, most of your big spellstrikes should be paired with True Strike since that helps tremendously your dps (more hits, more crits).
As a twisted tree magus (which, like I said, is for me the best hybrid study ^^), most fights will look like this:
* Round 1: Buff (improved invisibility, stoneskin...) + Cascade.
You can also do Electric Arc + cascade, Electric Arc + move or one of my favorite, Shield + cascade + move.
Remember that thou art fragile, and moving to spellstrike early is pretty risky. Your HP and AC are nothing to write home about. Also, unless you're facing a full-ranged party, it's usually better to let THEM waste actions instead of the opposite.
* DPS round: True Strike + Spellstrike
* Recharge round: either
- Electric Arc + recharge
- Move + recharge + strike
- Strike + recharge + shield
- Move + strike + recharge
- Any spell + recharge
So there's little place for conflux spell anywhere.
Blue_frog wrote: The biggest gripe I have with conflux spells is that they all include an attack, which cripples your MAP.
So:
- On rounds you spellstrike, you shouldn't use it.
- On rounds you don't spellstrike, you don't suffer as much from action economy, and you can afford to waste an action to recharge instead of wasting an action AND a focus point - which are way more useful unloading damage.
I find this not true.
Even the standard: Stride + Strike + Recharge would be way enhanced by making it Stride + Conflux + Strike.
The issue, to me, lies somewhere else ( explained below ).
Blue_frog wrote:
Also, most of your big spellstrikes should be paired with True Strike since that helps tremendously your dps (more hits, more crits).
As a twisted tree magus (which, like I said, is for me the best hybrid study ^^), most fights will look like this:
* Round 1: Buff (improved invisibility, stoneskin...) + Cascade.
You can also do Electric Arc + cascade, Electric Arc + move or one of my favorite, Shield + cascade + move.
Remember that thou art fragile, and moving to spellstrike early is pretty risky. Your HP and AC are nothing to write home about. Also, unless you're facing a full-ranged party, it's usually better to let THEM waste actions instead of the opposite.
* DPS round: True Strike + Spellstrike
* Recharge round: either
- Electric Arc + recharge
- Move + recharge + strike
- Strike + recharge + shield
- Move + strike + recharge
- Any spell + recharge
So there's little place for conflux spell anywhere.
A burst round, depends the table, may happen in 2 different ways:
1) True Strike + Spellstrike
2) Spellstrike ( if it fails, hero point ) + Extra
The Extra can be
- Stride + Spellstrike
- Intimidate + Spellstrike
- Feint + spellstrike
- Shield + Spellstrike
- Aid + spellstrike
And so on.
It's good to remember that the hero point is used only on a failure, so you may go on even for several rounds before using it.
Rules suggest the DM to give the players a hero point per hour.
If the DM does so, the party will end up having more hero points ( way more easier to land spellstrikes ).
If the DM gives less ( or doesn't use them ) it would indeed become harder.
Apart from that, the issue with conflux spells lies in the comparison between a magus using bound spellcasting slots to go nova and a magus using a damaging focus spell instead than using spell slots to go nova.
Considering that a map has from 4 to 10 encounters, being able to use 1 focus spell per encounter to deliver a massive blow ( eventually, in addition to those provided by spell slots ) is way more powerful than using conflux spells and cantrips.
And that's it.
A magus is incentivized to get a dedication that gives a damaging focus spell that deals double the cantrip damage.
HumbleGamer wrote:
I find this not true.
And yet you just say exactly what I said: a focus point is way more useful when you use it on a focus damaging spell than a conflux spell.
I fail to see where our opinions differ ^^
Blue_frog wrote: HumbleGamer wrote:
I find this not true.
And yet you just say exactly what I said: a focus point is way more useful when you use it on a focus damaging spell than a conflux spell.
I fail to see where our opinions differ ^^ It's the reason why.
I mean, you said "The biggest gripe I have with conflux spells is that they all include an attack, which cripples your MAP", and my answer was towards the MAP part.
I consider the conflux spells not bad because they involve an attack, as they may allow to stride + strike + strike + recharge ( or anything else ).
They do their job right.
I find them suboptimal compared to damaging focus spells, and we agree on this.
HumbleGamer wrote:
It's the reason why.
I mean, you said "The biggest gripe I have with conflux spells is that they all include an attack, which cripples your MAP", and my answer was towards the MAP part.
I consider the conflux spells not bad because they involve an attack, as they may allow to stride + strike + strike + recharge ( or anything else ).
They do their job right.
I find them suboptimal compared to damaging focus spells, and we agree on this.
Aaah.
Well, stride + strike + strike + recharge is merely giving you a second strike at -5 at the cost of a focus point. That's... awful, even not considering that you can use a damaging focus spell.
Even without taking a dedication, you can get at 8th level a focus spell that gives you one more action FOR A WHOLE MINUTE. It's not even that great, but it still blows those conflux spells out of the water.
Yeah, the point is more like "They wouldn't be bad at all, if there were not damaging focus spell usable to perform spellstrike"
As for lvl 8 focus spell you are talking about hasted assault ( which is a lvl 7 focus spell available by lvl 14 )?
if so, lvl 14 is far away ( ending of book 4 of any AP ).
it may seem good though ( especially with an inexorable iron who wants to smack enemies in melee ).
The issue is that when you spellstrike, that quickness condition entirely loses their value ( with a -10 map you won't use it. and given it's only for attacks, you won't be able to stride either ).
So, in my opinion, It's not that good overall ( leaving apart the damaging focus spells from dedication as alternative ), and I think it's way better use a conflux spell rather than it.
R1: Stride + spellstrike ( hero point if needed )
R2: Conflus + Strike + Random ( stride, shield, cascade )
R3: Truestrike + Spellstrike
R4: Conflus + Strike + Random ( stride, shield, cascade )
R5: Truestrike + Spellstrike
ps: Note that it's conflux vs hasted assault. not involving the winning condition "damaging focus spell".
HumbleGamer wrote: Yeah, the point is more like "They wouldn't be bad at all, if there were not damaging focus spell usable to perform spellstrike"
As for lvl 8 focus spell you are talking about hasted assault ( which is a lvl 7 focus spell available by lvl 14 )?
if so, lvl 14 is far away ( ending of book 4 of any AP ).
it may seem good though ( especially with an inexorable iron who wants to smack enemies in melee ).
Yeah, my bad, I thought it was a lvl 4 focus spell !
And I agree that haste is not as good as we think on a magus, my point was saying the conflux spell are even worse ^^
And even in your example, hasted assault is better.
R1: Hasted assault + buff or + shield + cascade
R2: Free Stride + Truestrike + Spellstrike
R3: Free Stride + recharge + Spellstrike (with hero point)
R4: Free strike/stride + recharge + Electric Arc
R5: Free stride + Truestrike + spellstrike
So same number of big spellstrikes, more mobility, more flexibility on the follow-up if it's a longer fight, one less focus point, one more electric arc (or any spell actually).
But yeah, haste is not that great - it's just that conflux spell are even worse.
Aehm, the hasted assault doesn't give a free stride.
It just gives an extra strike.
It's the reason it's not that good on a magus.
HumbleGamer wrote: Aehm, the hasted assault doesn't give a free stride.
It just gives an extra strike.
It's the reason it's not that good on a magus.
Uh.
That sucks.
You have a point, that actually sucks even worse than conflux spells ^^
Yeah, the benefit of hasted assault is that it's one action and recharges spellstrike, but it's weaker than haste. I'd like it a bit more if it didn't compete with better feats at that level.
TheOneGargoyle wrote: aobst128 wrote: I see laughing shadow as the better melee option since it has the best conflux spell. You don't even need to use a one handed weapon with it. Start with a 2 handed bastard sword and drop a hand if you decide to activate cascade. Hi Aobst128, this is the other option I'm seriously considering.
Have you had any experience playing this build ? If so, what was it like in play ? Did you enjoy it ? I haven't been able to play magus actually. Just an educated guess based on the apparent issues with melee magus. Laughing shadow conflux spell helps alleviate movement issues. I don't think that the discrepancies are too large to say the other melee subclasses are bad though.
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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
From what I have seen of the magus in play as a GM of players who have played them, there are a lot of moving parts to consider in every round of a combat.
Trying to decide whether arcane cascade is worth it or not, for example, or whether trying to get a useful conflux focus spell or a more powerful blasty focus spell from an archetype are decisions that actually all interact with each other.
Conflux spells that combine an attack and a recharge are for rounds where you are not going to be spell striking anyway (the MAP penalties really do discourage combining spellstrike and conflux spell on the same round...except for force fang, which actually does beef up a nova round DPR pretty nicely and recharges you again for next round). I don't think Thunderous Strike is particularly good conflux spell, but it is doing 2 things you want to do on the down turn into one action, and it has a little extra damage tagged on there with probably about a 5% chance of knocking someone prone as well. Even against a single target, 2+1/2 your level in bonus sonic damage plus a chance to knock someone prone plus possibly getting some chip damage on a second enemy AND recharging your spell strike is not a wasted action compared to a strike...The question is whether it is worth not having a more powerful focus spell to use with your spell strike.
BUT, you are playing an AP that gives you druid or wizard as a free archetype so getting a different focus spell is not really an option for you until level 6, and even then that involves spending ALL of your level 4 and level 6 class and archetype feats to get it. So you have at least 1 whole book where "get a better focus spell" isn't really an option. This will give you plenty of time to experiment with your conflux spell and decide for yourself if it is worth it. Just remember, if you arcane cascade and cantrip on the first turn, even at level 1, that strike with your conflux spell when you probably use it on turn 3 is getting +1 any type of damage (based on your cantrip from round 1), and +2 damage sonic damage, meaning for one action, you are getting the best case scenario attribute bonus you could get from having used spell strike, and thus for one action, you are getting all but the cantrip's damage die that you would have gotten for spell striking. Your damage on a round where you spend 2 actions striking with arcane cascade and one of the actions benefiting from this extra conflux damage will outpace your spell strike for a long time, and even when a spell striking round is better, this is a series of actions that sets you up for that next round better than just spending an action to recharge.
Many, many classes end up getting better focus spells by level 7 or 8 that make their level focus spells less valuable. It is probably best to look at conflux spells in a similar light.
The biggest "risk" factor of being a two handed laughing shadow magus, is that it will have you writing off your arcane cascade, pretty much from level one, especially if you want to use a polearm with reach, all for a different conflux spell that you will only really be using once a combat. I personally recommend trying to get that arcane cascade going on round 1 every combat as a base line strategy for a new magus player, because it will interact with your spell strikes and it will interact with your conflux spells. Yeah it is only one point of damage per strike, but you will strike a lot during a combat, while you will only use your conflux spell once. There are going to be a lot of creatures in Strength of thousands where, say 1 extra point of a specific element's damage per strike, could be 4 extra points of damage or 6 extra points of damage against a weakness.
That is why I really strongly suggest trying to make sure you use all of your class abilities as often as possible at first, especially if you want to play an Iron Magus. Any ability you end up writing off, is essentially wasted class features for you. Not every character uses all of their abilities, but building into being unable to take advantage of those features before trying them out for yourself. Strength of Thousands has a fair bit of downtime built into it. Using some of it to retrain is something you can talk to you GM about in advance, and hopefully, since you are all new to the game, they will be very accommodating about it.
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I still would do inexorable iron over laughing shadow. The focus spell has opportunity cost over psychic amped cantrip, so you are better off with the temporary hit points.
Blue_frog wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: Aehm, the hasted assault doesn't give a free stride.
It just gives an extra strike.
It's the reason it's not that good on a magus.
Uh.
That sucks.
You have a point, that actually sucks even worse than conflux spells ^^ Hasted Assault *is* a conflux spell. It recharges just like anything.
So first round, you're spending an action for an attack and a recharge, and every round after that for the rest of the minute, you get an extra free attack. The trick is that you make sure to make that attack *after* you spellstrike, rather than before.
Now, "free second attack" isn't overwhelmingly good, but it's not nothing.
The quickened condition kicks in at the beginning of your turn.
So hasted assault is just like expending an action ( and a focus point) to recharge, on round 1.
After that, if you find yourself at ease with an extra strike using a magus, then you'd be fine with it.
I'd always prefer my quickened condition to give me either strike or stride, which is almost for free to get by lvl 14+, and my focus points to be used as they were a max level spell slot used to cast a damaging attack spell.
To me it's simply useless as a lvl 14 class feat.
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Unicore wrote: <lots of really useful & thought-provoking stuff Thanks Unicore. This all makes a lot of sense.
I think you are right, and as we are all just beginning in PF2 I will have a chat to the DM about the possibility of us respeccing if we need to once we've played for a couple of levels. I'm pretty confident that they'll be ok with it.
Also as you say, the AP means I will start w/ Wizard FA, so it will be a few levels until I need to worry about another archetype and alternative focus spells, so I think I'll have time to get a feel for how the initial ones play out first.
I'm leaning pretty heavily towards picking up Force Fang at L2 so that I have 2 focus points to play with, and more options of what to do with them.
We're getting together tomorrow night to do a bit of a Session 0 type setup and the DM has said they might even do a couple of faux combats for us to get a feel of how our characters play in a fight.
I'm pretty sold on a Str-based 2H wpn build. I'll just need to make the final call on Shadow or Iron and I keep flip-flopping on which way to go with that.
There seems like such good arguments on both sides, but in summary, how I'm viewing it right now:
Shadow:
Pros - higher mobility due to conflux spells, flexibility of 1H/2H wpn options (bastard sword maybe? unarmed ?), thematically appealing to me
Cons - speed bonus from AC can be replaced with Wand of Lonstrider at L2, bonus dmg has restrictive constraints (empty hand & flat-footed)
Iron:
Pros - higher durability from temp hps (& self-healing a high levels)
Cons - locks into 2H wpn only, conflux spells lackluster, will struggle more with action economy
Did I miss anything in the pros & cons ? Would you add or change anything there ?
If you're going to go laughing shadow I would recommend stocking up on drakeheart mutagens. Then go 16/16/14 str/int/dex. That will leave you 2 10's and a 12. Drakeheart gives you a +5 item bonus and has a max dex bonus of 2 so you can focus on str int and whatever other 2 stats you want. That set up will allow you to have a 20 ac at level 1 while getting your speed and damage boost from cascade.
Theonegargoyle, you just have to decide how you intend to use your focus points.
If you want to use conflux spells, then probably laughing shadow may end up being better than inexorable iron, because of the movement + recharge + strike.
Otherwise, if you intend to use your focus points to cast damaging focus spells ( like ray of fire or imaginary weapon), then I suggest you to go with inexorable iron in order to get temporary hp for free each round.
As an aside, I'm wondering why nobody mentions the psychic version of Produce Flame.
It's less effective than imaginary weapon but it's only one feat instead of two, and it deals 1d12+1 splash fire damage per cantrip level when amped, which is a tad more than 2d6 on your primary target and can actually deal some satisfying damage on adjacent opponents.
In my book, that's better than Telekinetic Projectile, which starts slow and gets +2d6 per level later. Pushing the target 5 feet away can be nice, but I'm not sure it's really worth it.
Did I miss something ?
I prefer physical damage to fire for resistance/immunities
I too prefer physical damage rather than elemental one.
Plus, psi development gives the magus the last focus point they need.
Making it an excellent choice for those who want to rely on focus spells ( you might choose another magus focus spell to get the third one, but if you do so, why not invensting in psi development instead? ).
I like the good mix between fire and frost the conscious mind gives though ( amped ray of frost gives a great sustain, while the produce flame a little aoe an higher damage ).
HumbleGamer wrote: Theonegargoyle, you just have to decide how you intend to use your focus points.
If you want to use conflux spells, then probably laughing shadow may end up being better than inexorable iron, because of the movement + recharge + strike.
Otherwise, if you intend to use your focus points to cast damaging focus spells ( like ray of fire or imaginary weapon), then I suggest you to go with inexorable iron in order to get temporary hp for free each round.
Thanks HumbleGamer. From what I understand so far, this AP limits FA to Wizard & Druid, so I'll be taking Wizard, which means it'll be L6 or L8 before I really get any other damaging focus spells.
In the meantime, I'll only really have conflux spells I think.
I'm hoping that's plenty of play time to decide what playstyle I like.
chapter6 wrote: If you're going to go laughing shadow I would recommend stocking up on drakeheart mutagens. Then go 16/16/14 str/int/dex. That will leave you 2 10's and a 12. Drakeheart gives you a +5 item bonus and has a max dex bonus of 2 so you can focus on str int and whatever other 2 stats you want. That set up will allow you to have a 20 ac at level 1 while getting your speed and damage boost from cascade. Thanks for the idea chapter6, I didn't know about Drakeheart Mutagens. I'm not quite sure I understand though, this seems like it's a +4 item bonus at L1 and a +5 at L3. So would that mean a 19 AC at L1, do I have that right ?
This seems like a much more advanced and item-dependent build than maybe I'm ready for yet, plus that stat array would leave me starting with 12 Con and that feels just a bit too fragile to me so far. Also it looks like an action to use in already tight action-economy.
But I'll definitely keep this idea in mind!
TheOneGargoyle wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: Theonegargoyle, you just have to decide how you intend to use your focus points.
If you want to use conflux spells, then probably laughing shadow may end up being better than inexorable iron, because of the movement + recharge + strike.
Otherwise, if you intend to use your focus points to cast damaging focus spells ( like ray of fire or imaginary weapon), then I suggest you to go with inexorable iron in order to get temporary hp for free each round.
Thanks HumbleGamer. From what I understand so far, this AP limits FA to Wizard & Druid, so I'll be taking Wizard, which means it'll be L6 or L8 before I really get any other damaging focus spells.
In the meantime, I'll only really have conflux spells I think.
I'm hoping that's plenty of play time to decide what playstyle I like.
Consider it would take 1 month of downtime to swap hybrid study ( it's not a big deal ), so it may be not a bad idea to start with laughing shadow lvl 1-5 and then retrain into inexorable iron once you get your damaging focus spell.
Or maybe you'll realize you find more at ease playing with conflux spells!
HumbleGamer wrote:
Consider it would take 1 month of downtime to swap hybrid study ( it's not a big deal ), so it may be not a bad idea to start with laughing shadow lvl 1-5 and then retrain into inexorable iron once you get your damaging focus spell.
Or maybe you'll realize you find more at ease playing with conflux spells!
Oh man, I'm such a n00b, I didn't realise that retraining your subclass like that was specifically allowed in the rules !
I think this is a great idea, thank you !!!
TheOneGargoyle wrote: HumbleGamer wrote:
Consider it would take 1 month of downtime to swap hybrid study ( it's not a big deal ), so it may be not a bad idea to start with laughing shadow lvl 1-5 and then retrain into inexorable iron once you get your damaging focus spell.
Or maybe you'll realize you find more at ease playing with conflux spells!
Oh man, I'm such a n00b, I didn't realise that retraining your subclass like that was specifically allowed in the rules !
I think this is a great idea, thank you !!! And I thought it was you the one suggesting a similar approach by saying
Quote: I'm hoping that's plenty of play time to decide what playstyle I like. where play time meant "while playing the adventure".
Good!
I started with S18 D10 C14 I14 W12 C10, though you could swap wisdom and dexterity if you like. I started at 9th level where I didn't have to worry about losing AC to 10 DEX
nicholas storm wrote: I started with S18 D10 C14 I14 W12 C10, though you could swap wisdom and dexterity if you like. I started at 9th level where I didn't have to worry about losing AC to 10 DEX Yes, I'm planning on swapping Dex & Wis but otherwise using that stat array
HumbleGamer wrote: And I thought it was you the one suggesting a similar approach by saying
Quote: I'm hoping that's plenty of play time to decide what playstyle I like. where play time meant "while playing the adventure".
Good!
Haha, nope, but now that I know, that's extra awesome !
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Update: we had our session 0 last night, although with only 2 PC's, myself and the thaumaturge.
The thaumaturge decided to start with the weapon implement, and I decided to give Shadow a go with a bastard sword.
We had a few faux combats to get a feel for how the system worked. One was a couple of giant rats, one was a Wolf, and another was an Orc Warrior.
The rats and wolf encounters were fine, but the Orc warrior really showed me first hand how susceptible to AoO's the magus is. Now I understand the value of a reach weapon, I'll probably swap to a polearm once monsters with AoO's start showing up more often.
Also I got to experience for myself how painful it is to miss with a spellstrike and why frightened, flat-footed, Aid, etc are so important.
Given the concern I had about the action economy of the Magus that had me originally start this thread, I found in actual play that even though I never had as many actions as I wanted, working out what to do with the ones I had was enjoyable, both tactically and thematically. I felt like I had useful and powerful options at my disposal, and I felt like a warrior-mage mixing it up with spell and sword. All in all I enjoyed it immensely and think I'll be very happy playing a Magus.
We learnt lots about the PF2 system too. For example, looking through the Bestiary for simple enemies to fight, there aren't really any boring monsters - all of them have interesting abilities, mechanics & so on that make them more than just plain attack and deal damage fights. That's quite different from 5e monsters.
Also the thaumaturge player was quite surprised to work out that it might be a more optimal use of their third action to aid me if I'm doing a spellstrike that round, than to just attack a third time at -10 and almost certainly miss. In 5e it's never worth aiding another character.
None of the enemies we picked to fight had a weakness for the thaumaturge to exploit, or for me to target, but we got to see how it might work if we had.
Out of all of it though, I think the biggest thing we learnt was that even a moderate encounter can turn scary really fast if you have a few rolls go against you. The second round of combat against the Orc was literally if we don't take it out before it's turn, we're probably both dead. That's another big difference from 5e combats!
All in all, our first impression was that the combat system in PF2 was fun & interesting and way more than just attack & deal damage.
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread and helped me understand the class & game system enough to proceed with it. Huge appreciation! :-)
Rule number one, spell strike only if you also have true strike or a hero point ready to be used.
TheOneGargoyle wrote: I never had as many actions as I wanted, working out what to do with the ones I had was enjoyable, both tactically and thematically. I felt like I had useful and powerful options at my disposal, and I felt like a warrior-mage mixing it up with spell and sword. All in all I enjoyed it immensely and think I'll be very happy playing a Magus. This is what I enjoy about the combat part of the game. I need to have meaningful decisions and choices to make. Options with trade offs and tactics. Which is why I have a strong preference for melee martials or switch hitters over pure ranged martials. Also for casters with options not just direct damage.
Magus has a bit of everything and I can see why you really like it.
TheOneGargoyle wrote: We learnt lots about the PF2 system too. For example, looking through the Bestiary for simple enemies to fight, there aren't really any boring monsters - all of them have interesting abilities, mechanics & so on that make them more than just plain attack and deal damage fights. That's quite different from 5e monsters. It is just much more interesting if the monsters have different approaches.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TheOneGargoyle, glad to hear you had fun and are excited to get your campaign started. The biggest appeal of PF2 for me is how much fun it is to GM, and a big part of that is monsters having interesting abilities, but not at the expense of being overly complex or difficult to run in combat. It really does make every encounter it’s own unique situation for the party to deal with and keeps things from getting stale or predictable.
Enjoy your Adventure into the Strength of Thousands!
Asp coil is a 1 handed reach weapon in case you still want to play a laughing shadow magus. You don't need true strike to spellstrike unless you're using a spell slot
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