TheOneGargoyle's page

Update: we had our session 0 last night, although with only 2 PC's, myself and the thaumaturge.

The thaumaturge decided to start with the weapon implement, and I decided to give Shadow a go with a bastard sword.

We had a few faux combats to get a feel for how the system worked. One was a couple of giant rats, one was a Wolf, and another was an Orc Warrior.

The rats and wolf encounters were fine, but the Orc warrior really showed me first hand how susceptible to AoO's the magus is. Now I understand the value of a reach weapon, I'll probably swap to a polearm once monsters with AoO's start showing up more often.

Also I got to experience for myself how painful it is to miss with a spellstrike and why frightened, flat-footed, Aid, etc are so important.

Given the concern I had about the action economy of the Magus that had me originally start this thread, I found in actual play that even though I never had as many actions as I wanted, working out what to do with the ones I had was enjoyable, both tactically and thematically. I felt like I had useful and powerful options at my disposal, and I felt like a warrior-mage mixing it up with spell and sword. All in all I enjoyed it immensely and think I'll be very happy playing a Magus.

We learnt lots about the PF2 system too. For example, looking through the Bestiary for simple enemies to fight, there aren't really any boring monsters - all of them have interesting abilities, mechanics & so on that make them more than just plain attack and deal damage fights. That's quite different from 5e monsters.

Also the thaumaturge player was quite surprised to work out that it might be a more optimal use of their third action to aid me if I'm doing a spellstrike that round, than to just attack a third time at -10 and almost certainly miss. In 5e it's never worth aiding another character.

None of the enemies we picked to fight had a weakness for the thaumaturge to exploit, or for me to target, but we got to see how it might work if we had.

Out of all of it though, I think the biggest thing we learnt was that even a moderate encounter can turn scary really fast if you have a few rolls go against you. The second round of combat against the Orc was literally if we don't take it out before it's turn, we're probably both dead. That's another big difference from 5e combats!

All in all, our first impression was that the combat system in PF2 was fun & interesting and way more than just attack & deal damage.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread and helped me understand the class & game system enough to proceed with it. Huge appreciation! :-)

And I thought it was you the one suggesting a similar approach by saying

Quote:

I'm hoping that's plenty of play time to decide what playstyle I like.

where play time meant "while playing the adventure".

Good!

Haha, nope, but now that I know, that's extra awesome !

I started with S18 D10 C14 I14 W12 C10, though you could swap wisdom and dexterity if you like. I started at 9th level where I didn't have to worry about losing AC to 10 DEX

Yes, I'm planning on swapping Dex & Wis but otherwise using that stat array

Consider it would take 1 month of downtime to swap hybrid study ( it's not a big deal ), so it may be not a bad idea to start with laughing shadow lvl 1-5 and then retrain into inexorable iron once you get your damaging focus spell.

Or maybe you'll realize you find more at ease playing with conflux spells!

Oh man, I'm such a n00b, I didn't realise that retraining your subclass like that was specifically allowed in the rules !

I think this is a great idea, thank you !!!

If you're going to go laughing shadow I would recommend stocking up on drakeheart mutagens. Then go 16/16/14 str/int/dex. That will leave you 2 10's and a 12. Drakeheart gives you a +5 item bonus and has a max dex bonus of 2 so you can focus on str int and whatever other 2 stats you want. That set up will allow you to have a 20 ac at level 1 while getting your speed and damage boost from cascade.

Thanks for the idea chapter6, I didn't know about Drakeheart Mutagens. I'm not quite sure I understand though, this seems like it's a +4 item bonus at L1 and a +5 at L3. So would that mean a 19 AC at L1, do I have that right ?

This seems like a much more advanced and item-dependent build than maybe I'm ready for yet, plus that stat array would leave me starting with 12 Con and that feels just a bit too fragile to me so far. Also it looks like an action to use in already tight action-economy.

But I'll definitely keep this idea in mind!

Theonegargoyle, you just have to decide how you intend to use your focus points.

If you want to use conflux spells, then probably laughing shadow may end up being better than inexorable iron, because of the movement + recharge + strike.

Otherwise, if you intend to use your focus points to cast damaging focus spells ( like ray of fire or imaginary weapon), then I suggest you to go with inexorable iron in order to get temporary hp for free each round.

Thanks HumbleGamer. From what I understand so far, this AP limits FA to Wizard & Druid, so I'll be taking Wizard, which means it'll be L6 or L8 before I really get any other damaging focus spells.

In the meantime, I'll only really have conflux spells I think.

I'm hoping that's plenty of play time to decide what playstyle I like.

<lots of really useful & thought-provoking stuff

Thanks Unicore. This all makes a lot of sense.

I think you are right, and as we are all just beginning in PF2 I will have a chat to the DM about the possibility of us respeccing if we need to once we've played for a couple of levels. I'm pretty confident that they'll be ok with it.

Also as you say, the AP means I will start w/ Wizard FA, so it will be a few levels until I need to worry about another archetype and alternative focus spells, so I think I'll have time to get a feel for how the initial ones play out first.

I'm leaning pretty heavily towards picking up Force Fang at L2 so that I have 2 focus points to play with, and more options of what to do with them.

We're getting together tomorrow night to do a bit of a Session 0 type setup and the DM has said they might even do a couple of faux combats for us to get a feel of how our characters play in a fight.

I'm pretty sold on a Str-based 2H wpn build. I'll just need to make the final call on Shadow or Iron and I keep flip-flopping on which way to go with that.

There seems like such good arguments on both sides, but in summary, how I'm viewing it right now:

Shadow:
Pros - higher mobility due to conflux spells, flexibility of 1H/2H wpn options (bastard sword maybe? unarmed ?), thematically appealing to me
Cons - speed bonus from AC can be replaced with Wand of Lonstrider at L2, bonus dmg has restrictive constraints (empty hand & flat-footed)

Iron:
Pros - higher durability from temp hps (& self-healing a high levels)
Cons - locks into 2H wpn only, conflux spells lackluster, will struggle more with action economy

Did I miss anything in the pros & cons ? Would you add or change anything there ?

Back to your original post

Quote:

Human Iron Magus (Str/Con) w/ Wizard FA, and Athletics + guisarme for tripping

Catfolk Thaumaturge (Cha/Dex) w/ Regalia, and Intimidate for Demoralize and Thievery for traps
Gnome Witch (Int/Wis) w/ Druid FA, and Crafting & Medicine

You are going to be 2 melee ( thaumaturge and magus) and a ranged ( witch).

I don't remember the witch tradition, but if anything but arcane, they are able to provide some healings ( there's also life boost that can be used).

Overall, it's usually ( I'd say always, but let's leave some room for other interpretations) better to be damage oriented than stacking up defensive stuff.

If the enemy goes down sooner, the damage they won't do would count as DR for the party after all.

I think the best you can do is to stick with inexorable iron and get the psychic dedication to get either an extra focus point and a damaging focus spell, available at least once per combat.

You can consider enhancing it with a familiar ( familiar focus) and,...

Yes the thaumaturge has changed and is now going to try weapon as the first implement, so yes, we'll definitely both be melee. So I'm thinking an option for us to try out will be Shield + Cascade + Stride into melee with them and try to set up flanking for T2. Maybe.

And yes the Witch is going Curse so will have Occult.

All of your suggestions sound good to me. Thanks so much for the help, I'm super grateful :-)

That it stacks with fast healing is nice, I'll give you that.

My issue with small amounts of thp is the same as Ninja disscribed. There's a risk that it doesn't change anything, quite often.

I have a similar beef with small amounts of aoe/splash (like the inexorable conflux spell). If the splash damg doesn't kill a mook, nor changes the threshold needed to kill it - by reducing the amount of hits needed from X to X-1, then it didn't actually do anything.

Either way, I'm not offering anything new to this thread anymore. Thanks for a lively debate people and best of luck to you gargoyle.

If your last ttrpg was 5e I'm sure you'll enjoy the Magus. It's a Gish that actually plays like one at it's baseline. And it's just imo one of the cooler classes there is.

Oh and just to dispell any overall concern:
The Magus is still considered one of the stronger post CRB martials. So you will definitely pull your weight and pack a punch.

Awesome! Thanks so much for all your input & thoughts Lollerabe. It's very much appreciated !

I'm so happy to hear you say all of this :-)

I see laughing shadow as the better melee option since it has the best conflux spell. You don't even need to use a one handed weapon with it. Start with a 2 handed bastard sword and drop a hand if you decide to activate cascade.

Hi Aobst128, this is the other option I'm seriously considering.

Have you had any experience playing this build ? If so, what was it like in play ? Did you enjoy it ?

Hmmm ... I'm very keenly interested in this conversation.

Squiggit & HumbleGamer, you both sound as if you are speaking from actual play experience with Iron Magus which is bang on what I was hoping for from this thread.

Would you be so kind as to go into a little more detail as to the experiences you're describing ? Any info you can give would be very much appreciated.

Esp to questions like:

How often were you finding the temp hps really seemed to make a difference ? How often were you entering cascade ? Did you find cascade difficult to find the action for to activate ? Did you do it early and often or only when it seemed necessary or you had actions to spare ? Where there any build options that made it more effective ? Does the Witch Life boost really make much of a difference (isn't it only 8hp of healing?) ? Does it rely on being paired with a spell slot for Stoneskin ? Did it work well at low levels or only high ?

A 1ap damage cantrip that has a movement rider would be godsend.

As a thought experiment, if you could create one single new cantrip that would solve as much as possible, what would it do ? And just how much would that solve ?

And unless you are using a slotted spell, spellstrike doesn't come out much ahead of a fighter just swinging a sword twice. A lot of people think magus is a high damage melee class because of the occasional big crit, but over the course of a fight.. not really.

That is kind of the complaint about the action econ. You NEED all three actions to do your thing, while other classes really only need 1-2, leaving one free for stride, defensive action, etc. When your "thing" isn't really any better than one of those classes just attacking, it makes it a bit frustrating.

This summarizes what I've learnt so far from this thread, thanks Ninja !

And what I've learnt so far that can be done about that:
* Laughing Shadow for movement conflux spells
* Reach weapons might sometimes negate the need to move
* L1 - L3 : not as big an issue since Magic Weapon and just striking > Spellstrike
* L4+: Mounts (if that fits your concept, can cause issues in tight spaces)
* L5+: Haste for the extra stride/strike action
* L8+: Potions & Boots of Quickness (as Haste but 1 action instead of 2)

Did I miss any of the main ones ?

Currently playing an inexorable iron magus and a fighter in 2 different aps. Both are around the same level (11 and 12). Both use great picks as weapons.

I think the fighter does more damage, but the magus is so much more durable. In the làst magus encounter the magus started combat with stoneskin and then entering arcane cascade. The 10 Dr and 6 temporary hp per turn had the magus end the combat over 50% hp, despite being hit 6 times.

I think the magus is very satisfying to play. I used shadow siphon to reduce damage on a prismatic spray, stoneskin to tank, chain lightning to blast and heightened invisibility.

Wow, amazing to hear Nicholas Storm!

May I ask can your Magus do this sort of thing often enough compared to how many encounters per day you have in that game? Or do you find they can only do it occasionally and you end up with many encounters where you're out of juice?

Also, how do you find the action economy on the Iron magus? Have you found it a problem or have you found ways to work around it?

Thanks so much in advance!

I disagree with accusations of the Magus seeming underbaked.

In my opinion it's the best designed class in PF2. It's got an interesting action economy that interacts in cool ways with the 3 action system.

It doesn't have a set "you do these 3 actions every round to maximize your DPS", instead it's an interesting puzzle that wants to take more actions than you have every round.

It gives you melee and ranged options. You can choose to maximize your spike damage by taking spells like shocking grasp. You can take expanded spellstrike to apply debuffs instead or you can use your spells for mobility and buffs, or even just memorize fireball and blow things up. 4/5 Hybrid studies all do interesting things and play differently and make different choices.

That's good design, not underbaked. You shouldn't be able to get everything you want, and having to pick and choose makes for varied and interesting play.

Thanks Pirate Rob, great to hear a differing opinion!

I 100% agree that "interesting" choices (ie meaningful & impactful ones where there are always more good choices than you can take and so you can't get everything you want) are the core of good design / differentiation and also of a fun game.

So, having ranged & melee build options are a good example of that to me. Also, being able to focus a build for different roles, eg damage output / striker vs defender/ tank vs control / debuffing is another.

Another aspect of good class design in my opinion is a variety of skill floors and ceilings. Some classes that are more straightforward and accessible for beginners or for those who just prefer that playstyle vs some that really need in depth knowledge & skill to get the best out of them.

I don't have an issue with any of these things in general, nor in the case of the magus specifically. In fact, I would agree with you about all of the above.

My concern, and where I'd love to hear more about your point of view on this is, are they able to be built & played to perform the role well that they spec for?

Let me have a go at distilling down everything I've learnt in this thread and hopefully this will articulate more specifically what I'd love you to give your thoughts.

Summary :
Magi fill the gish playstyle (or a ranged version thereof) and can be enjoyable to play in that role, especially with a combination of considerable system mastery and support/teamwork from other party members. They face 3 main challenges to get a good result:
1) fragile in melee,
2) constrained action economy &
3) overly punished by AoO's

The 4 melee subclasses each goes some way towards addressing one of those challenges. Iron & Targe assist with 1), Shadow is particularly helpful with 2), Tree & Iron help with 3). But none of them addresses all 3.

And Starlit largely solves all 3.

Net result: ranged magus can do its role well but melee is going to have one or more of those 3 that are problematic.

How'd I do?

I think digging into PF1 vs PF2 and class design theory is kind of off-topic and unnecessarily discouraging when trying to help a new player build a character.

Starlit magus is awesome and solves the class' movement problems but if you'd rather be a melee character it's fine.

Thanks Squiggit.

Honestly if I wanted to just play the best (ie most powerful) subclass I'd just go Starlit Span. It's clearly way ahead.

But I really want to play melee, so I'll go one of the others (probably either Shadow or Iron at this point) even though it's sub optimal, and just work out how to play it the best I can to get the most out of it that I possibly can.

That's where this thread has been so helpful, I've learnt so much already and I really appreciate how generous everyone has been with their input.

That said, I would mind the in-class comparisons. Starlit is way, way better than its melee counterparts, so you end up having something that fills almost the exact same niche as your melee magus but better. There are ways to alleviate the difference, but it will always be there and it does not feel particularly good.

That seems a pretty severe design fail if true. For one subclass at best adjacent to the core class concept to be just flat out so much stronger than the other 4 that hit the core concept...

And couple that with a supposed melee combatant that has numerous things built in that seem to make it unsuited to melee, like low defences, not enough actions to do their core class feature and move around in melee, and overly punished by AoO's.

All this put together seems.... Embarrassingly bad class design?

I think ultimately my dilemma seems to boil down to I'm having a hard time understanding / believing that this really is the way it is, and I keep thinking that I must've just missed something and don't understand / have enough system mastery yet.

But I think the answer to my dilemma seems to be emerging that no, I haven't misunderstood, it actually is that way, and, at the end of the day, it doesn't completely invalidate the class or make it non-viable, because the gap between the really good and not so good is much narrower in this edition so the class can still be fun to play if that melee gish is what you're after (it is), and you can live with the low defences and the action economy frustrations and still contribute to the party ok (especially if the rest of the party are willing to help you out) and you still bring distinct differences to other martials in your access to spells.

Does that sound about right?

You came from 5e right ?

So to put it into perspective:

When people are saying a melee Magus sucks compared to a starlit span Magus it's akin to a zealot barb that went str with their ASI and a zealot barb that went GWM with their ASI.

Neither of them suck at all, but the latter will pull ahead.

It is not in the realm of GWM zealot Vs Berserker that went savage attacker.

Pf2e has tighter math, but optimizing and min/maxing is still a thing. So a 10% damage difference is alot from that perspective.
But from a player's perspective I doubt most would notice that difference.

However action Econ issues are way more noticeable than slightly below average damage, and for some that can lead to a frustrating experience.
I think you'll have fun with a melee Magus. I also think you might end up in the camp of "damn I wish Magus had more action compressor feats" (with alot of us)

Haha, love the 5e comparisons, thanks Lollerabe!

Yes, I think you're right, I think I will very likely end up in that camp too!

This forum loves to discuss things, and many of its most frequent posters carried over from PF1 where one of the most common points to discuss was the relative value of different character build options. PF1 had huge gaps between optimized and unoptimized characters, and this type of discussion was actually pretty fruitful in highlighting what could amount to "trap options".

The power differences between optimized and unoptimized characters in PF2 is so much smaller that these discussions don't have nearly the same amount of practical weight. So when you see a discussion here saying one class is "woefully undertuned" or that some option has "no reason to exist" because of something else existing... you can rest assured that those dire consequences will not appear in play.

In actual play, I have seen an incredibly sub-optimally played laughing shadow magus carry their weight, steal the spotlight, and have fun. The proof is in the pudding.

Even the class that is most widely regarded as being at the bottom of the heap mechanically (the alchemist) can and will be fun at the table if that's what you like to play.

Thanks WatersLethe, that makes a lot of sense and helps me put it in perspective.

So I looked around this forum a bit more and discovered a few things.

First off, it turns out there's an entire sub-forum dedicated to requesting and providing Advice. So I guess this thread should probably have gone there instead of General Discussion. Sorry folks, rookie error on my part. If someone with sufficient access wanted to relocate this thread I would totally understand....

Second, I was a little dismayed to discover and read this thread.

That seems to paint melee magi in a pretty unflattering light. I don't pretend to understand half of what that thread discusses, but the general gist of it seems to be that melee magi are a lot harder to play and even if played well still end up being sub optimal, fragile and easily shut down compared to "proper martials", and most relegate them to somewhere around C or D tier.

I don't mind complexity in a class (in fact I'm seeking it), and I don't mind having to do my homework to learn how to play it well, and I don't need to be out shining the rest of the party or anything, but if the character I'm playing is just not good at what it's supposed to do, that's hard to enjoy playing it.....

Can anyone help me understand if this is a widely held & accepted view?

Am I just setting myself up for frustration and a poor play experience in selecting this class? Is it just not well designed & balanced?

Or have I completely misunderstood?

After playing one for a while, I found Dimensional Assault to be less powerful than some of the posts in here imply. It's nice, but it's a very small amount of movement (especially if you're ignoring LS's cascade as people suggest)... and if you're using it to reposition, the strike can be a bit of a liability, since at the start of a round it increments MAP (and makes using spellstrike a lot riskier) and at the end of a round it's not likely to hit.

It's still essentially like two and a half actions for one, but I found myself in a lot of scenarios where the movement either wasn't enough to help or the MAP became problematic.

It's definitely not a bad ability, but the number of times it felt like the best use of my actions and focus points was surprisingly small.

Hmmm.... OK, this is super important to know, thank you!!

I hadn't really thought through how far the teleport is. If I don't build for speed (I haven't been so far) my movement is only 25,and even with the 5ft bonus from Cascade, that still only means a teleport of 3 squares.

And without the cascade bonus, it's only half of 25 which I'm guessing rounds down instead of up, so that's only 2 squares.... Is that right?

I can see how that might easily not be enough to get into range of the next enemy. And if there's no enemy in range you can't use it. I guess at least having a reach weapon might help a little sometimes.

I'm wondering if it's worth picking up Fleet or Nimble Elf so that it's always a 3 square teleport even without cascade? Is that really worth a feat? Or would it be better to spend my feats on more impactful things? What do you think?

As for the MAP issue, I would imagine that any round I'd be using DA in, I'd either be intending to do normal strikes that round, or else do it at the end of the round and just accept that it probably won't hit, but at least I've recharged spell strike for next round. I don't think I would ever do a spell strike with a -5 attack. Would you?

Magus action economy gives you an interesting puzzle every combat, and the right action is different every time. It's part of what makes the class design so good and rewarding to play well. You have to figure out how to solve each combat puzzle, not just apply your preset optimal combat routine.

The Conflux spells are an important part of that puzzle, what makes them awesome is the melee ones tend to provide 2-3 actions, and since Magi are desperate for extra actions they can help solve the action economy puzzle.

---

Some combats you're going to have arcane cascade up for the bonus damage, other combats your you're going to be casting cantrips, other times you get crit a couple times and spend most of the combat recovering.

I'm so happy to hear you say that! Thanks so much, this is exactly what I was hoping to hear!

I did a pbp with my level 2 twisting staff magus and here's a round by round account of their 3 combats.

Combat 1 vs Fire Elementals

R1: Stride, spellstrike with Ray of Frost to trigger weakness
R2: Shield, Stride, Strike
Combat Over.

Combat 2 vs Shadow Striges
R1: Spellstrike Produce Flame (goblin like fire and was upset about having to use cold last combat), Arcane Cascade
R2: Stride, Spinning Staff, Shield
R3: Stride, Spellstrike
Combat Over.

Combat 3 vs Agents
R1: Stride, Produce Flame(At range)
Counterattack did not go well for me
R2: Stride, Shield, Arcane Cascade
KOed but healed. (Didn't shield block because would not have stopped KO)
R3: Stand, recover staff, shield.
R4: Spellstrike(Produce Flame), Stride
Combat Over.

This is invaluable for giving me an understanding of actual play, thank you!

Some questions about those combats if I may please? (if you remember that is!)

Combat 1 R2 : did you shield first to play it more defensively, or did you stride + strike first and then were out of melee range so just used a shield with your last remaining action?

Combat 2 R1 : were you able to start with spell strike b/c the shadow stirges won initiative and closed to melee range? Also, how did you find spinning staff worked in R2?

Combat 3 R1 : when you say counterattack, is that a technical term or ability, or do you just mean the agents attacked you back? And did getting KO'd cancel your Arcane Cascade because AC is a stance and stances get cancelled when you get KO'd - did I get that right?

You don’t actually need charts to tell you what to do in play. In fact, there are so many tactical and situational modifiers to every encounter, that making assumptions about the “best default action plan” can lead you into acting rashly, rather than “solving” the encounter like a puzzle. These charts, for example can’t tell you how frequently you will encounter creatures with resistances or weaknesses that will destroy the math in them. Thus recalling knowledge is always going to look like a waste of an action in the white room, but in play, some creatures might flee, or completely change their battle plan if one character can hit their weakness.

I'm looking forward to doing this. Until I actually play though I don't really have many (any?) of the jigsaw puzzles pieces to put together to solve the puzzle yet. So, all of these ideas/contributions are perfect for giving me a foundation to start from.

Giving up on any of your built in class features without trying them out and trying to understand what situations they can help you in is a good way to over specialize into situations where your character can do nothing in an encounter. This is a very, very common cause of player frustration in PF2, because you can’t win the game with your character build, which is different than in many similar games. Making sure you are in a good position to take advantage of things like flat footed, circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and action economy debuffing of the enemy often come down to terrain, encounter design and full party build. Each party member trying only to do their own thing is almost always suboptimal (even if each character is optimized) than a party working together.

Like only one person in the party needs to be good at recalling knowledge, and hopefully that can be a character that has a spare action often (like a full caster), but being good at identifying all creatures can be a major resource sink, while spreading those skills around can let characters actually be good at them AND another thing, so these are good conversations to have.

Totally, that was one of the main reasons for starting this thread. I want to be able to Trip and Recall Knowledge and stuff but I just don't undertake how to find the actions to do it. This thread has helped me immensely with that.

Luckily for me, our witch and thaumaturge look like being much better at RK and stuff than me, and our witch even had a thing that can give me a free action RK, so I'm hoping this will help.

And I'm thinking I can squeeze a Trip in occasionally on rounds I use DA.

By level 7, being only trained in a recall knowledge skill can lead to as much false information as useful, so just covering a lot of bases early doesn’t necessarily hold up into the mid and late game.

Hmmm.... OK, didn't know that. That's good to know. Maybe I'll let the witch & thaumaturge cover and I'll focus on other things like athletics?

I found the simulator I was talking about: https://bahalbach.github.io/PF2Calculator/

I took a look at that calculator but couldn't see how to add magic weapon to it.

Also, let's not forget that:
- Two strikes is more flexible: if your first one kills someone, you can change your round. Same if you realize the AC is way too high and you want to switch to electric arc.
- Two strikes lets you move, use a skill or whatever while someone spellstriking will have to recharge at some point.
- Two strikes divides your luck. I'm an unlucky bastard and two rolls are more satisfying than a single one for me ^^
- Two strikes lets you hit different targets.

On the other hand, spellstrike is good when you use it with a focus spell (like fire ray or firebolt from psychic) which can be as early as level 3 for psychic, 4 for cleric.

Good points, thanks!

Very true, but two attacks still outpace spell striking at that time. With the cantrip damage bump of level 5, it starts to become useful - which is a damn long time to wait before using our main schtick ^^

I see what you're saying there, although from what I understand it's only the case for big 2H wpns, and outside of MW it's only really levels 1-3 isn't it?

That doesn't seem so bad to me I guess.

Hand of the Apprentice is a focus spell that you can take with a 1st level wizard feat: https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=530

It's usually a bad spell for wizards because they don't use heavy weapons and don't bother to put runes on it but hey, you do !

At level 4 with your guisarme and a striking rune, you'll do 2d10+3 extra damage when spell striking.

At level 6 with an elemental rune, that's 2d10+4+1d6.

It loses steam quickly, though, which is why I suggested taking a focus spell from another dedication.

Also, in a pinch, it's a 500 feet-range spell that costs one action.

Ohhhhh! Yeah, ok, I hadn't put two and two together and imagined what it would do if you spell strike with it!

Although it's kind of a weird mental picture doing a spell strike to do an attack with a weapon which triggers a spell which does a ranged attack with a weapon which gets channelled into a melee attack ..... That's quite some mental gymnastics.... Are we actually sure it works that way?

Having a super long range option seems amazing too, even if it doesn't come up all that often, when it does, this is awesome!

Tree magus is the only class in the whole game who can enchant a magic staff.

So for the measly cost of 230 gp (less if you play with crafting rules and specific staves), you can buy a divination staff and get your level/2 free spell strikes while attacking with your staff.

Every other class in the game has to wield a staff in one hand to use it and a weapon in the other one, which prevents them from using a 2handed weapon or a shield, or in the case of laughing shadow, prevents them from getting their damage bonus. Tree magus doesn't. He wields a d8 deadly d6 reach weapon and can true strike pretty much anytime he wants.

Ahh ok, I haven't got my head around how the tree magus works yet. I'm still not quite understanding.

The staff rules say "Attacking with a Staff Staves are also staff weapons (page 280), included in their Price. They can be etched with runes as normal for a staff. This doesn’t alter any of their spellcasting abilities."

So, couldn't any magus use a staff in this way as both a weapon and a magic item? I mean, as long as they're happy with the staff weapon dmg & properties of course.

Also, is it possible to have a magical staff in the form of a Bo Staff? Cos that would be a decent weapon alternative to a guisarme, with reach & trip and only one less damage dice.

Hello,

I'm currently playing a Twisted staff magus, and here are some pointers I hope will be useful. This is what I found optimized but there are no universal truths so take everything with a grain of salt ^^

Hi Blue_frog! Thanks for taking the time to share your experience!

1) At low levels (say 1 to 5), spellstriking is useless.

The best use of your low level slot(s) until you get a striking weapon is to cast magic weapon - and doubly so for an Iron Magus since you're using a weapon with a big dice. That means your guisarme will do 2d10+str (hopefully +4) and no amount of spellstriking will outdamage that. So even with a -5 penalty, it's better to attack twice and not spellstrike until level 5 or so. There are programs made by fans who'll give you the exact breaking point. But yeah, there you have it, our main feature is useless until level 5 which is pretty annoying. On the other hand, you'll deal a hefty amount of damage anyway.

OMFG! I had no idea this was the case!!

I couldn't easily see what anyone else had done already on this, so ran up some numbers myself and..... YOU'RE RIGHT!!

Esp at L1, even with giving up a round of damage to buff, after only 2-3 rounds it's not even close. Magic Weapon and two strikes per round, even with the MAP on the second one, easily outpaces spell striking, plus you still have an action to move!

Even the cantrip damage bump at L3 doesn't close the gap either.

But at L4 I guess the expectation is that you get a striking rune so Magic Weapon doesn't do anything any more.

2) Try to get a powerful focus spell. Your slots are valuable, so a way to deal more damage every fight is great. The best ways include going Psychic dedication (for 1d12+1 fire damage/2 lvl) or cleric dedication (for 2d6 fire damage/2 lvl). Going psychic also lets you get the best magus cantrip ever but you'll need 2 feats for that.

Not sure when we'll be able to do that in this campaign because the AP limits us to Wizard our Druid but I'll keep it in mind.

3) Since you took a wizard dedication, you should take hand of the apprentice. It works with spellstrike and deals a lot of damage at early levels. It will lose steam, though.

Don't quite understand this one, could you elaborate please?

2) 4) All magus focus spells suck big time. Don't use them. The only one that could be worth it is laughing shadows if you take the level 10 feat, but then that would force you to play laughing shadows which is plenty bad.

I'm totally considering going Laughing Shadow now (see suggestions higher up in the thread) so I can see myself using that.

2) 5) True strike is your friend. Use it, abuse it. That's also why Twisted Tree magus is the best magus by miles. True Strike into Spellstriking a big focus spell is an awesome nova round.

Not quite understanding here. What advantage does Tree Magus get with True Strike?

2) 6) Always take a round to prep at the beginning of the fight. Don't rush headlong into battle with your low hp. A good first round could be Greater Invis + Cascade or GI + move depending on whether you want the cascade...

I'm starting to understand the value of this tactics now!

Although in my party we don't have a big beefy guy in plate to take the heat for us (see party composition at start of thread) so I'll likely be the main melee, but even so, it still might be a solid approach much of the time.

Thank you so much for so this excellent input, super appreciated!!

I haven't played it yet and full disclosure:
This was actually advice given to me by a member called Exocist.

I, like you, thought of laughing shadow as a 1h + freehand medium/light armor char. BUT the thing is you don't need a free hand really, and you don't got the action econ room for making trips, grapples etc.

The movespeed from laughing shadow is unfortunately status and dosent stack with longstrider, which you should get a wand of asap - so missing that part is null pretty early.
The extra damg from being in Cascade also requires the target to be flatfooted and even when meeting all those requirements: 1hand free, in Cascade, target is flatfooted - you still only break even with a d12 (assuming a d6 weapon).

So the main 'weakness' of the build (imo) is that it feels very unintuitive and.. annoying ? To not use your class features.

This all very true.

The build is super solid, and being able to gap close or reposition would most likely be more valuable for your survival than some mesely thp (which again requires Cascade to be activated. Which you already know how I feel about).

I would argue that it's both stronger and more fun than an Iron build. But keep in mind that I find both Irons feats and conflux spell super weak

This is what it really boils down to ultimately.

And it's hard to know if this is in fact the case but I think it sounds enough like it might be that I think I will try it.

Thank you SO much for suggesting this idea!!

You'll be trading temp/hp and the arcane cascade additional effects from laughing shadow but it's not a big deal imo.

- A wand of longstrider lvl 2 would give you +10 status speed.
- Your arcane cascade damage bonus would be the same as the Inexorable iron.

Plus, you are going to get better hybrid study spells ( even if you might end up using those slots for more true strikes ).

As for the Temp Hp you'll get every round... well, that's a nice sustain you have to forgo... but consider you are going to get the best conflux spell so far, so it's no issue at all ( unless your purpose was to make a tanky magus.

In that case, inexorable iron + life boost + stoneskin is the way ).

I say go for it, as it would be incredibly fun to play with!

Hmmm... I think you're right, really about the only thing I'd be giving up would be the temp hps.

And I just don't know how much difference they make, or how much I need them until I play.

But honestly, I think just starting with Dimensional Assault will assist with the action economy, and be more what I was hoping to play too.

Thanks so much!

Just throwing this out there for the OP:

NOthing is stopping you from playing a heavy armor + 2h reach laughing shadow. It's conflux spell is that strong, and the hybrid studies changes to Cascade are pretty minor either way.
That's actually one of my own backup chars

Ooooh! I hadn't thought of that!!

I actually really wanted to play Laughing Shadow originally but thought they only went light armour + 1H wpns and so probably wouldn't be durable enough to be a frontliner.

But a hvy armour + 2H wpn Laughing Shadow?? How does this work? And if you have played this backup character at all, how was it to play? And do you think it could be durable enough to hang out on the front lines?

There's just haste or electromuscular stimulators, but they require 2 actions to be activated.

Note that it's not that they pay themselves after 3 turns, as an extra action completes your turn.

For example

Routine with Haste

1) Haste > Cascade
2) Movement > True Strike > Spellstrike
3) Recharge > Strikex2/Spell/Powerattack ( or spellstrike, if you considerto invest a hero point in case of failure ) > Movement ( or strike )
4) Recbarge > Movement > Strikex2/Spell/Powerattack ( or spellstrike, if you considerto invest a hero point in case of failure )
5) Recharge > Movement > Strikex2/Spell/Powerattack ( or spellstrike, if you considerto invest a hero point in case of failure )

Routine without Haste

1) Spell > Cascade
2) Movement > Strike x2 ( or spellstrike, if you considerto invest a hero point in case of failure )
3) True strike > Spellstrike
4) Movement > Recharge > Strike
5) True Strike > Spellstrike

It's random routine, but as you can see, it already pay out by round 2, allowing the magus to land a spellstrike ( while a non quickened magus won't be able to do so, unless wasting 1 action to cast a worthless spell like guidance/shield/message on round 1.

But even so they'd be equal.

The more the hero points your master gives, the better the haste build.

OHHHH!!!

Ok, I'm going to have to walk through those sequences carefully and get my head fully around them, but based on that, it makes Haste seem more attractive to me.

I played a scythe-wielding Inexorable Iron Magus, a Sparkling Targe in another campaign, as well as helping build a number of other types. I found a couple interesting points to consider for Iron Magus (my favorite so far):

This is fantastic info, thanks so much !! And I'm thrilled to hear that Iron was your favourite to play. Would you be so kind to tell me more about that ? What made it your favourite ?

Wow, Scythe ? I'd never even thought to try that. How was that to play ? Did you find you had the actions to use Trip much ? Or was it more of a backup thing ? Did you do ok without Reach ?

1. Arcane Cascade stance is great, and gives the Iron Magus temp HP each round. The extra damage is just a cherry on top, until it exploits an enemy weakness- then it's pure gold. As a stance, you only need activate it once during combat and will remain in stance until knocked down, disarmed, etc. OR you can re-enter stance after casting a different spell to change your extra damage type. (I like to think of it like residual dweomer from your spell captured by your weapon's movements).

Yes, I would really REALLY like to be able to get into AC often. I think as the main frontliner I will really need those temp hps, and I'm certainly hoping to find enemies with weaknesses I can trigger from time to time. I'm imagining that will feel really good when it happens !

2. Shield is a solid cantrip for you because you can use it with your two handed weapon, and it adds Force damage to your strikes. When in doubt, open with this cantrip and enter Arcane Cascade stance. Safe and defensive, and almost all monsters are affected by force damage.

Yes I was definitely planning on doing this. Question, when you open with it in this way, would you use the reaction if you get hit, or would you hold off b/c you want to be able to cast it again later in the fight ?

At the moment I'm imagining that if I cast it, and I got hit, I'd really want to use it, even if that means I can't cast it again for 10 rounds, b/c I think I'll need the durability, and also I probably won't have the actions to cast it again afterwards.

How did you do it ?

3. Unless you plan to use Expansive Spellstrike or cast a lot of spells outside of Spellstrike (which you might, with your stated wizard free archetype) you don't really have to have a high INT. Spellstrike requires your weapon to hit (that's STR for Iron Magus or maybe DEX for others). Unless it requires a saving throw your INT doesn't really matter for most spells. Some add damage per spellcasting modifier, yes, but by and large you don't HAVE to. Just pick spells that don't depend upon INT for damage and have no saves, round out with a few utility spells (summons, buffs) and you're fine.

Something to chew on, anyway.

This is fascinating to me actually. I'm not sure about using Expansive Spellstrike, but I have a few levels to see how I feel about it I guess. I'm leaning towards starting with 18 Str, and then 14 in Int & Con and just 12 Dex. Does that sound ok ?

Thanks so much for all this really useful advice btw Baron ! It's hugely appreciated :-)

I play a magus in 2 different campaigns. Here's some of what I learned for my laughing shadow magus I absolutely try to get into cascade often, at 10th level my base spellstrike damage before rolling any dice on a flat-footed opponent is +15. And the move speed is nice but easy to replicate in other ways. That magus also only prepares 1 spell for spellstriking once he had 4 slots the others are usually for AoE's. He can target almost any weakness in the game because of the various cantrips from archetypes. He has the psychic, magaambaya and Halcyon speaker archetypes. I spellstrike with cantrips almost exclusively and like someone mentioned I use elemental wrath when I need to worry about AoO's. The other magus is a sparkling targe and just started so not as much feedback but bastion is really good for the sparkling targe at helping to smooth out the action economy especially if you are going to use a real shield. You could choose to use the shield spell you get 1 less AC but you can use 2 handed weapons. You don't need to be in arcane cascade if you choose the bastion archetype as you can grab feats that will help do the same thing. Alternatively you could go the psychic archetype route and get the shield psi cantrip and imaginary weapon. You can use a shield on you and cast shield on someone else who might be squishy.

Holy cow, +15 ?? Admittedly I don't know what L10 chars typically look like yet (we're starting at L1) but that still sounds nuts to me !

And yeah, I REALLY wish there was some equivalent to Dimensional Assault for Inexorable Iron but there just isn't :-(

I don't think Psychic is going to be an option for us in this campaign (at least, not at the start anyway) but that sounds like a strong option so I might keep that in mind for next time.

As I've asked a couple of others also, may I ask how much you have enjoyed playing the melee magi ? Has the action economy constraints got in the way of you feeling overall happy with the class ? Do you feel you are contributing well in the party ?

I played several Magus, all of them melee. Action economy under normal circumstances is a bit rigid, but nothing you can't work around. The biggest issue is how easy you are to shut down. Melee magus has 2 big counters, loosing actions and high mobility enemies. Against the former, there is not much you can do when it happens (You can invest on Kip Up via acrobatics or tell a spellcaster to cast Spell Immunity: Slow on you, but the issue will be still there in a myriad forms), but against the latter you can make use of reach, speed increases, extra mobility options, ways to cheat actions... any of those are really, really good on melee magus.

Thanks so much, I'm really REALLY loving hearing the voice of experience of people who have played them. May I ask, was your overall experience of playing these melee magi still good ? Did you enjoy them and feel like you were holding your own in the party ?

Also, Magus is probably the class that scales the most with accuracy increases. If your party has to buff someone with Heroism, convince them so it is you.

Oooh, ok, this is really good to know, thanks ! I will try to convince the other players to do this !!

It looks like Heroism is on the occult list so our Witch could get it, is that right ?

One thing I will note if you're going for the mounted solution - it may be better (if you can manage it) to go for a small or tiny ancestry and a medium mount. Large mounts take up four squares, and that can get awkward sometimes.

This makes perfect sense, thanks for this. I don't think I'm going to go that route at this point, but I'll keep that mind for if I do.

Common homebrew fixes for melee magus.

Make arcane cascade either always on if your weapon is drawn or a free action. I prefer the former, but still takes an action to switch damage types.

Also no AoO on spellstrike.

You will find melee magus "flows" a lot better while not being overpowered at all.

To be 100% honest, whilst I haven't started play yet, I imagine I'll wish more that I had a way to work around the 1-action recharge.

If there was ever going to be a rules-change (whether official or homebrew), I'd rather it was that from the sound of it.

Do you know if there are any common homebrew rules around that ?

Exactly, yes. But keep it flexible and don't fall into the mindset of only using the optimal play. PF2 rewards tactical flexibility.

Haha, got it ! I will do my best :-)

I haven't played one, but I do DM for a melee magus. As far as melee goes, Laughing Shadow (the only one I have seen in action) doesn't really suffer much from action economy thanks to the conflux spell's movement even without haste.

Yes I must say Dimensional Assault made it a BIG temptation to play Laughing Shadow instead but I just really didn't think I'd be durable enough to be the frontliner .... if I'd had someone else in the party to do that for me, I reckon 100% I would've played Shadow. I wish Iron got something similar that included a movement of some sort.

Casting haste as a self buff though tends to be a mixed bag; you give up two actions and a resource, so it only pays itself off after 3 turns. Potions or Boots of Haste are better, as they only require one action.

That's a good point there. I guess it comes online a lot earlier though. Am I right in understanding that Potion of Quickness is L8 and Boots of Speed are L13 ? Are there any options for lower levels that you are aware of ?

Something that is worth mentioning though that a lot of guides and online discourse assume that the class is only good if you're spellstriking every turn, and this is where the talk of being action starved comes from, since you can't stride, recharge, and spellstrike at the same time. While you want to spellstrike as much as you reasonably can, you absolutely do not need to deliver a spellstrike every turn to be good, the same way a wizard doesn't need to use a max level spell every turn to contribute meaningfully. Arcane cascade does provide a minor amount of extra damage, and you base strikes are valid. The fact that so many conflux spells are strikes plus an enhancement seems indicative of a design choice that not everything in the class is intended to be stacked around spellstriking every turn. A twisting tree spending two actions to Blazing Dive into a few enemies, then sweeping strike, for example, did not waste their turn just because they didn't spellstrike.

I completely see what you mean. I think it's just that a normal strike even when in Arcane Cascade seems pretty lacklustre unless you're triggering a weakness, so I imagine that is why it's deemed so important to spell strike as often as you can. But yes, you are right, it's not an entirely wasted turn.

The main reason I take Champion Dedication to do a magus tanker isn't really the benefits of dedication itself but the Champion's Reaction (paladin) and Divine Ally (shield) feats. They are the same name full class abilities of the pure champions for any class.

Paladin's Champion's Reaction allows to protect allies and counterattack with reaction while Shield Ally improves the shield hardness and give 50% more HP for the shield improving the shield resistance when blocking magical damage, also spellstrikes are strong enought to call the attention of mostly opponents.
The enemies easily begin to focus in the magus when it's reducing the damage to allies, counterattacking and giving a good amount of damage with spellstrike.

Basically depends from situation. As I said before the main thing that prevented me to feel that's I was subpar is the char main focus. My main focus was never to do spellstrikes all the time but to protect allies and myself from all damage types (champion reaction protects my allies while Sparkling Targe + Shield Ally to protect myself against both physical and magical damage).

The second thing is that Shielding Strike basically solve all my action economy problems to...

Thanks Yuri. I think if I was going to play a character like this I would probably go a similar way. I'll definitely keep all this in mind for next time.

Expansive spell strike with Electric Arc still only targets one enemy. People have a range of opinions on Expansive Spellstrike, but I believe that feat only encourages you to play sub-optimally. Others feel it is an action economy booster because you can cast Area of Effect spells with an attack built in, but the trade off is that the spell is lost if you critically miss. Whereas you gain nothing from critically hitting. That is why I personally don't recommend Expansive Spellstrike, especially for newer players to the class or the game.

The core identity of the Magus as a class (so what it is built to do well) is to try to set up as accurate an attack as possible with a spellstrike, so you can crit and get ridiculous damage against a single target. The class is not flat, or one dimensional. You certainly don't have to play it this way, lots of people don't, but the linking of the attack roll and the spell attack roll as a design choice, with the way the crit system of PF2 works makes it so that there are few other builds that will top it on critical damage. So the two things the Magus does best are devastating critical hits, and targeting weaknesses (which can really add up against the right enemies).

As far as electricity damage, there are enemies that are weak against it, but, as you can imagine, they are usually robotic-like enemies. At the same time, electricity is often a very safe type of damage type to use when you don't know a creature's resistances, because it is not a very common resistance either (compared to poison or fire).

The other advantage of Electric Arc for all casters is that, as a save targeting cantrip, it is pretty easy to get some damage out of it against an enemy (since they take half damage on a successful save), which can make it a decent option for targeting a very weak or injured enemy, but still maybe getting some damage in against someone else as well.

And as you have correctly read, combining casting a saving throw targeting spell with a normal attack is a pretty good turn for most casters, since the attack is made with no MAP. Eventually, the delayed casting proficiency of the Magus makes that less of a great option for the magus, but by then you should have enough spells and higher level feats to give yourself much better things to do with your turn.

Thanks Unicore, really good info & advice there.

Just a general note, to say thank you for such a warm welcome to the community and all the good advice you folks have been contributing.

It's so appreciated and I really feel like it is teaching me so much about the game. So, cheers ! :-)

Electric arc for a magus is for blasting when you don’t want to play chase. It doesn’t really work with spell strike, so you can use it on enemies within 30ft of you. At higher levels it won’t be something you use that often and it’s range becomes pretty limiting. Still it is a good way to hit 2 enemies and can be a better low level choice than moving and striking. It is really just a flexibility option

Ahh, I see, because EA doesn't have an attack roll, so it doesn't work with Spell Strike. Gotcha. What would happen if I took Expansive Spellstrike and then tried to use EA with SS ? Would that work but only target 1 creature instead of 2 ? Is that right ?

So yeah, maybe flexibility option if say there are 2 enemies adjacent to each other and I don't really want to go up in their face and let them both smack me, so I might choose to hang back first turn and use that, then enter Arcane Cascade off it (especially if the enemies have lightning vulnerability I suppose - are there many of those ?).

Also, because EA is a save and not an attack roll, does that mean it's unaffected by MAP ? So, if for example, I strike and kill something, and then EA something else at range, is there any penalty ?

HammerJack wrote:

No, True Strike and Hero Points are both Fortune effects, and you can never apply two Fortune effects to the same roll.

Was that for me?

With "if you do so" I meant if you go without true strike, but I realize now it may have been not grammatically correct.

I think it was for me as I asked if you could use them both on the same roll.

Shame that you can't but I understand about the stacking effects from the same source.

My Magus experience was playing an Ancient Elf Sparking Targe Magus with Champion dedication (magic resistant tanker that can spellstrike sometimes). As a Tanker my focus was never the spellstrike everytime so I didn't care too much about the very complex action economy once my main focus was protect myself and my allied yet it exists and effect the class too much.

Notable things about this experience:

Spellstrike is a very strong and consistent damage source.

The Magus HP maybe is little low for a melee

Arcane Cascade is a thing that I used little due the expensive action economy generated by spellstrike. I basically used it only against opponents that I know I need to block magic effects. In general the stride, spellstrike, strike, rise a shield, shielding strike actions was more interesting than enter in arcane cascade. So it's a good thing but many times you will have another better thing to do with your actions (too many good action options to do).

AoO opponents can really make some limitation for a Magus (I was take some AoO in the face because many times I didn't use my actions to RK due my action economy and other party members also don't wanted to do too) but as my focus was to tanking this wasn't a real big problem and also I workarounded it using Elemental Wrath.

In general was a very fun and interesting class to play but it's little tricky. You have to come with the open mind that you have to be very adaptable with your actions if you play it with a pre-planned mind thinking with a perfect action economy tactics in your mind you will probably will frustrate yourself with a melee magus.

This is exactly the sort of "voice of experience" I was hoping to get, thanks !

Some questions if I may ?

* Does the Champion dedication give anything other than the +1 AC for Heavy Armour ? Or is that a strong enough benefit that it makes it worth taking the dedication for that on it's own ?

* Did you have any way on that char of keeping the enemies attention off your squishier team mates and onto you ? Is that a thing for tanks in this game ?

* It's really awesome to hear that you didn't feel too hamstrung by the action economy. Do you have an impression of how often you were able to still spell strike ? Was it only rarely or a bit more often ?

* Did you end up taking the Toughness feat and if so, did that help or did you still feel your hit points were too low ? Do you think Toughness compares in effectiveness to Hvy Armour ?

* Elemental Wrath is a great idea ! I didn't know about that but it looks cool ! I wasn't planning on going Elf though, was planning on going Human and grabbing Toughness to help with the HP situation. But that's a good one to think about.

No, True Strike and Hero Points are both Fortune effects, and you can never apply two Fortune effects to the same roll.

Ahhh! Didn't know that. Ok, will definitely keep that in mind !

I have not played a magus but have seen a few in Pathfinder Society. I think your concerns are well founded. The Magus is really high risk high reward. The majority of the time they are a subpar frontliner. Worse than almost any martial besides maybe swashbuckler. But occasionally you’ll score a crit hit on your spell strike and explode… but honestly if you’re crit fishing you’ll get better mileage out of a fighter.

I'm hoping I don't feel like that too often, that would be pretty discouraging I think.

I guess I'm keen to do/learn/try whatever I can to avoid that happening.

Any advice from what you've observed as to what some of those players might've done to minimize that, or things they've done that have worked better than others ?

Some great comments in here. I just wanted to chime in with a few of my own:

1. I'm GMing Strength of Thousands and I let my players pick different FA if they're already capable of casting Arcane or Primal spells. However, Wizard goes GREAT with Magus anyway.

Oooh, that's a GREAT idea, I love that ! Thanks, I will let our GM know about that idea.

2. Our Magus in Strength of Thousands plays suboptimally, forgets to spellstrike, often hangs back and lobs spells, forgets to use utilize Arcane Cascade... but has still been a great boon to the party. They've had shining moments where they gouging claw spellstrike crit for bonkers damage, as well as teleporting behind an unsuspecting foe to set up a flank. Even hanging back and lobbing Electric Arcs has the added value of contributing a surprising amount while keeping their big moves in reserve and not draining the healer's resources.

LOL, ok, that's so awesome to hear. Then there's hope for me too ! I'm pretty sure I will forget a lot of stuff at the start and play pretty sub-optimally initially.

I hadn't considered taking electric arc, thanks for the prompt. That looks pretty strong if there are 2 enemies adjacent to each other. Am I right in reading the spell description for EA that if they make their reflex save they take no damage at all (as opposed to half or something) ? In which case, I'd probably want to save that for enemies I think have low reflex saves (maybe big tough types with high AC but clumsy) ?

3. Almost everyone I've played with has felt the pressure of how to effectively use their three actions. Magus isn't unique in having a lot they want to do with that resource, and the number of times a caster has dropped a sustained spell to pull some clutch maneuver leads me to believe that action starvation also has benefits, such as making combat feel more cerebral and rewarding tactical planning.

I really like the sound of that. Thanks heaps !

1) having different traditions would allow the character to cast different spells. For example, occult would give you access to heroism.

Makes perfect sense but I guess I don't have enough knowledge of the different spell lists yet to know how worth the tradeoff that is.

2) the familiar will give you an extra slot per day ( 3 lvl lower than the one you can cast) and a refocus ( allowing you to start a combat with 2 focus points rather than one, or 3 rather than 2 ). You can get a familiar tattoo and let them rest within it. Or any other extra dimensional space.

Ahhh ok, that's good to know. And is the extra spell & focus pt without costing an action ?

3) I meant to say that a lot of magus spells would be used for true strike, while others for damaging single target spells. This would leave no room for haste ( casting it from a scroll would be good, buy then you'd have to expend an action adjusting your grip). Round 1 would probably be spell + cascade. Making it spell + change grip is not a efficient.

This is particularly interesting to me. I might have to change my thinking on this, as I come from other systems where extremely limited spells means leaning heavily on buffs that can last a whole fight rather than "one-and-done" spells.

I'd love to know if anyone has done any theorycrafting about which ends up being better, Haste to enable more spellstrikes or a damaging spell to spellstrike with ?

Never cast spell strike without true strike.

If you do so, consider having at least a hero point to reroll it ( if needed).

I'm guessing you mean spellstrikes with levelled spells here and not ones with just cantrips ? Or do you mean cantrip ones too ? How can you possibly get enough true strikes for that ?

4) psychic has the best damaging cantrip sprll ( imaginary weapon), which deals force damage and it's damage can be doubled with a focus point. Being a focus spell would allow you to cast it over and over.

Ok, good to know.

Anyway, knowing you are tied with either wizard or druid with FA, you may consider doing something like:

Lvl 2 magus feat + wizard dedication
Lvl 4 wizard spell casting + striking scroll
Lvl 6 psychic dedication + wizard feat
Lvl 8 imaginary weapon +...

Ooooh, that's almost the bones of a build guide ! I will look all of those up, thanks !

Truestrike is especially different in PF2 than 5e because of the 3 action economy and the crit system. True strike really helps you land critical hits (often nearly doubling you chances or better) and as a Magus, you will have nearly the wildest critical hits in the game. (maybe the gunslinger occasionally out does you, depending on build). When you spell strike, rolling 2 times is always going to be better than rolling once and making a 3rd attack afterwards at -10 to strike. Magi also tend to want to use Hero points for attacking with the spell strike for this reason, even if it leaves you living dangerously if you get brought down. Hero points are a little bit better for not missing, but eventually are much more limited than true strike as a spell. By level 5 or 7. You won’t have 1st level spells you want to spend on attack spells anyway.

Ahhh ! Of course, I hadn't factored the extra crit chance as being so important !

Can you combine a True Strike AND a Hero point ? If you do, how does that work ? Roll twice, pick the better one first and then reroll it ? Or can you pick either to reroll and then take the best ?

Since I'm a little worried about being fragile, would I be best to keep 1 Hero Point always in case of going down, and only spend extras on Spell Strike ? As you say, it sounds like living pretty dangerously to use the last one on a SS and then not have one in reserve in case of extreme death. Recommendations ?

You should generally be spending one focus point every encounter. They are there to be used and renewed. In your toughest or final encounter, spend all your points. With the magus in particular, though, you should be tactical about spending it because your conflux spells recharge spellstrike.

Got it. Thanks.

So if I understand correctly, on a round where SS is down, I can use a Conflux focus spell to get a strike and recharge SS for a single action, whereas normally that would cost 2 actions, essentially saving me an action. Then I can use the other 2 actions that round to move and then do something else (shield spell, recall knowledge, etc) that I otherwise wouldn't be able to fit in that round. Is that right ?

Would that be one of the best ways to use the conflux spell ?

You do, but Reach lets you be in melee from further away. Depending on how you set up yourself and your buddies it can give you lots of opportunities to flank enemies since you are using your weapon's extended reach to threaten them.

Ahhh, did not know that ! Ok, that's cool !!

As for focus spells, I don't believe they've hurt for focus points yet. I can't speak for how your GM will play things, but Adventure Paths are generally set up in such a way that you should be able to ten minute rest between most fights. The game is built around that assumption; your HP will dip faster than in other systems, but being able to use medicine between battles makes it swing back up again, for example. I believe that Age of Ashes is one of the rougher APs in that regard, since it was the first one made for PF2E, so I'd assume the pacing in Strength of Thousands to be much smoother.

Good to know. And is one person with Medicine per party generally enough in this regard (esp in a party of 3 like us) or would it be recommended to have more than 1 ?