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For me optimisation comes from building in 2 stages. The first is concept and fun. The 2nd is for party. I think about concept and what I want to achieve, I never fully flesh it out because I want to leave room to try and cover party weaknesses. In most campaigns I will ask what everyone else is playing and what the party is short on and try to marry my concept with the party needs. I've played a magus as both the primary caster of the party and another time as the party dps machine. (Side note I really think people under value the int and cantrips on the Magus or the fact they are the only class that gets to add 2 stats to their attacks. And the crits are chef's kiss). A magus can tank just fine you just have to understand what it is and pick the right study. A sparkiling targe magus with the sentinel or bastion dedication are more than capable

What about the magical tattoos?

Asp coil is a 1 handed reach weapon in case you still want to play a laughing shadow magus. You don't need true strike to spellstrike unless you're using a spell slot

If you're going to go laughing shadow I would recommend stocking up on drakeheart mutagens. Then go 16/16/14 str/int/dex. That will leave you 2 10's and a 12. Drakeheart gives you a +5 item bonus and has a max dex bonus of 2 so you can focus on str int and whatever other 2 stats you want. That set up will allow you to have a 20 ac at level 1 while getting your speed and damage boost from cascade.

In 10 levels of Extinction Curse as a LS magus I have only taken one AoO the whole campaign. And as cheesy as it sounds it is possible for any melee to bypass the AoO. It's going to cost a feat or two but elemental wrath allows you to spellstrike without getting smacked for it and can give you another damage type for Cascade.

shroudb wrote:

HumbleGamer wrote:

They messed up with the magus focus spells, resulting in getting an archetype/dedication to cast damaging focus spells somehow unbeatable.

I disagree with that. Magus focus spells have the major upside of recharging your spellstrike.

Since that alone is 1 action, their effects are basically a "free action do X for a focus point"

Which makes them quite good imo.

Their recharge involve an attack, which is way worse that strike x2 + recharge.

Renouncing to a spell strike doing double the cantrip damage is nonsense to me.

Starlit doesn't need to move, so they can just alternate true strike spell strike with recharge + strike x2

Laughing shadow is the only one that can trade a focus for either movement and recharge, which may seem cool, until you realize you won't spell strike without a true strike.

It can go with a hero point though.

The other ones are kinda useless as they just give extra actions you don't need.

Ok before I make assumptions do you mean you won't spellstrike without true strike if you are using a spell slot or period?

Ok I can explain the laughing shadow's breakdown. Right now we're level 10 his stats STR 19 DEX 14 CON 16 INT 19 WIS 14 CHA 12. I spellstrike almost exclusively with cantrips and most cantrips give you you're casting stat mod (+4), it's a melee attack so I get my strength mod (+4) and in AC with a flat-footed opponent I get a +7. Some people want to ignore int unless they plan on casting save spells but Magus is the only class that can add 2 mods to 1 attack repeatedly. I usually only get 1 attack a round on him so I try to make it count as much as possible

I play a magus in 2 different campaigns. Here's some of what I learned for my laughing shadow magus I absolutely try to get into cascade often, at 10th level my base spellstrike damage before rolling any dice on a flat-footed opponent is +15. And the move speed is nice but easy to replicate in other ways. That magus also only prepares 1 spell for spellstriking once he had 4 slots the others are usually for AoE's. He can target almost any weakness in the game because of the various cantrips from archetypes. He has the psychic, magaambaya and Halcyon speaker archetypes. I spellstrike with cantrips almost exclusively and like someone mentioned I use elemental wrath when I need to worry about AoO's. The other magus is a sparkling targe and just started so not as much feedback but bastion is really good for the sparkling targe at helping to smooth out the action economy especially if you are going to use a real shield. You could choose to use the shield spell you get 1 less AC but you can use 2 handed weapons. You don't need to be in arcane cascade if you choose the bastion archetype as you can grab feats that will help do the same thing. Alternatively you could go the psychic archetype route and get the shield psi cantrip and imaginary weapon. You can use a shield on you and cast shield on someone else who might be squishy.

chapter6 wrote:

HumbleGamer wrote:

chapter6 wrote:

So I'll take teleport 80' spellstrike rd 2 force fang spellstrike. Not a bad opening

I'd prefer blinkstrike + cascade if I were a melee, then true strike spellstrike from the next round and then alternate strikes with true strike spellstrikes.

Back then I'd have risked spellstrike without truestrike, but now I don't dare do that anymore ( same for wasting focus spells on zero damage force fangs ).

Fortunately, most of the AP maps do not have large rooms ( making extremely long range movements and teleporting spells not so relevant, though dimensional disappearence may end up beign not sufficient in several occasions ).

To each their own, guaranteed damage and 80' teleport works way better for me that a 20' teleport and normal strike

Until lvl 9. From lvl 10+ is teleport + recharge + spellstrike.

DD allows you to be invisible it doesn't change the distance

chapter6 wrote:

So I'll take teleport 80' spellstrike rd 2 force fang spellstrike. Not a bad opening

I'd prefer blinkstrike + cascade if I were a melee, then true strike spellstrike from the next round and then alternate strikes with true strike spellstrikes.

Back then I'd have risked spellstrike without truestrike, but now I don't dare do that anymore ( same for wasting focus spells on zero damage force fangs ).

Fortunately, most of the AP maps do not have large rooms ( making extremely long range movements and teleporting spells not so relevant, though dimensional disappearence may end up beign not sufficient in several occasions ).

To each their own, guaranteed damage and 80' teleport works way better for me that a 20' teleport and normal strike

I realize DA recharges spellstrike but getting to teleport 80' vs 20' is a huge deal, especially when you can also use force fang to recharge spellstrike with no map. So I'll take teleport 80' spellstrike rd 2 force fang spellstrike. Not a bad opening

Imaginary weapon is good on a Magus but I would hardly say it's THE best spell for a Magus who has the psychic MCD. If you take spell swipe it can certainly be pretty good, but amped produce flame with it's d12 and splash, ray of frost with it's d10 and temp hp are really up there. And amped warp step make dimensional assault feel kind of bad. Phase bolt can help you negate a shield. I think it really depends on what kind of magus you're talking about

As someone who has played in a dual-class game at least for us it wasn't really broken. The GM didn't put in restrictions but none of us were really hard-core power gamers so we didn't try and break it. If I'm not mistaken everyone defaulted to a martial/caster or martial/skill monkey

So with the psychic multiclass if I take oscillating wave I don't get to add or remove energy? If that's the case do I get to add/remove energy if I choose produce flame with parallel breakthrough?

You're gonna need some armor either from champion, rogue, or a general feat and you probably want to use haste over mirror image in order to skirmish. Only really worth going in if you can get your 2 targets with imaginary weapon. Maybe also with the d12 amped produce flame. Could be fun if you can land attacks against flatfooted foes.

Won't need armor if he's using Drakeheart mutagens

If you're playing online also try adding a few veteran non friends. 1-2 who are more familiar with the game and can help steer the player's and show or nudge them on how to play.

Can you give a little info on the chronoskimmer and the archetype with the mindblade?

Magnetic acceleration does that, under the same conditions

AlastarOG wrote:

On magus: Obviously they don't strike as hard as other damage classes with their gimmicks if you remove their gimmick, that isn't my point. My point is you can get out of the ''MUST SPELLSTRIKE'' mindset and have a lot of options still. Base striking with weapon specialization and martial proficiency is still very viable, after all, it's essentially what the fighter does, they're just 10% more effective at it (which makes them crit more often on average yes, but if its just a hit because of dice well they do as much damage as a magus)

Between un-maxed int and bad proficiency progression, magus shouldn't ever cast anything with a DC.

Regarding the never ending struggle between martials and casters, the caster's ability to "rewrite reality" isn't considered truly worthwhile until level 7+. Bard and cleric get a pass because of their innate features but that's the limit. Even at 7+ optimized parties don't really want more than one spellcaster with, again, bard+cleric being excepted. The once vaunted out of combat utility casting used to bring is no longer considered a valid use-case by optimizers in this edition as skills are now much more useful and most utility and "plot" spells have been kneecapped or locked behind rarity tags and assumed unavailable.

Temperans wrote:

AnimatedPaper wrote:

Otoh, doesn't that run the risk of someone becoming the main character? If one of you reliably outperforms the rest of the table, it creates pressure for everyone else to be your support, spending actions to enable your big maneuver instead of everyone working to lift up everyone.

That was basically the description of the God-Wizard, right? Hugely complex class, but the power available was equally deep and everyone was best off helping you do your thing instead of trying to be heroes in their own right.

You just described the PF2 Fighter. Everyone is spending all their actions to make the PF2 Fighter do their their thing, while their own thing takes a secondary to

...

So have you played a magus in this edition or are you a strict optimizer? Because I've been playing one since the playtest. And my DC was 1 behind our druid and my saving throws were passed and failed pretty much similarly. Starting with a 16 int doesn't kill you. In fact it works even better in your favor. Only barbs can start out with a higher damage bonus per hit if you do it right.

Why do resonant weapons work with spellstriking arrows but not with spellstrike. And does spellstrike work with unarmed strikes from stances?

Thanks!

Is this something I can find on Nethys?

Again you see it as bad because you don't feel the feat cost is justified but the other parts make it so. The feats you are trying to compare shouldn't be. Regular casting and bounded casting are not the same and trying to compare the archetypes the way you are is unfair. You give up better spell access for access to class abilities.

What was said was you aren't taking a bounded spellcasting archetype because you're looking at the spellcasting. If I want to cast more spells I'd be a wizard not a magus. Same with the archetype yes it has spellcasting but if that's the reason you're taking it vs access to spellstrike and magus class feats then you are and will be disappointed. The feats are balanced for what they are. Oh I get that people want them to be more but it's an archetype and is always going to be less.

breithauptclan wrote:

I look at this:

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

Lets go level by level, starting at 6, not counting breadth.

6/7 - Same
8/9 - Caster gets a lvl 3, Magus Doesn't
10/11 - Caster has a lvl 1 magus doesn't
12/13 - Caster has a lvl 1 magus doesn't, Magus has an extra 3, but Caster gets a 4
14/15 Caster gets a 1-3, Magus gets an extra 4, both have a 5.
16/17 Caster gets 1-4, Magus gets an extra 5, both have a 6.
18/19, Casster gets 1-4, Magus gets and extra 5/6 but has no 7th.
20, Casster gets 1-5, Magus gets an extra 6/7 but has no 8th.

and notice that yes, the full caster archetype gets the lower level spell slots. But for the upper level spell slots they trade back and forth on who has more of those upper level slots.

6/7: same
8/9: caster ahead
10/11: same
12/13: nearly same
14/15: Magus ahead
16/17: Magus ahead
18/19: Magus has more, caster has higher
20: Magus has more, caster has higher

And that is a lot closer of a race than the spell slot comparison of the base classes that these archetypes are based on.

12/13 Casters have a higher spell slot, I wouldn't say it is close.

But lets not bicker over the exact details, we have charts for that. The question isn't how the base classes compare but how the archetypes do. Magus loses this exchange for a higher price. Now, they could have engineered it so it was closer, but they didn't.

For instance if Magus had a 1-2-1 pattern, still only 4 spells, but if they kept up the same levels as MC wizard would get an extra -1 in exchange for low level spells etc etc. But that is getting into homebrew territory.

But giving them 1-2-1 spell progression doesn't work. It gives spells at 3 levels plus cantrips. An actual Magus doesn't have access to 3 spell levels at once until they get studious spell

To be honest you can take the Magus mcd and be out of it without taking any spellcasting. The dedication, spellstrike and basic martial magic to grab a feat. I really think people who underestimate the power of spellstrike even with a cantrip especially with a fighter or ranger.

Not really again the reason it's worse is because you're getting access to class features. The spells are incidental and not the main point of the mcd.

Casting mcd's give worse casting than the class so why wouldn't bounded spellcaster give worse casting than the class. If they made bounded spellcasting in line with regular casting dedications the archetype would be better than the class. It would give you far more spells with the limit of spellstriking once a combat

For starters if spellcasting is more important than having an eidolon or spellstriking why take the archetype? Bounded casting is different and behind regular spellcasting so why wouldn't the archetype be the same? You don't take wizard mcd for the wizard feats.

How does one not get the extra abilities for the familiar with the dedication? It does say you gain the familiar feat. It gives you a witch's familiar and basic witchcraft specifically says your familiar no longer get one less ability

SuperBidi wrote:

And there's also the question of average VS optimized. As Fighters can be either Strength or Dexterity based, and Dexterity based Fighters are quite bad, do you consider the class strong because of its best builds or average because it has both good and bad builds?

Why are Dexterity Fighters bad in PF2e? Just unable to take account of the correct feats etc? Could they not be great archers?

They can make great archers but with no dex to damage and still needing strength for propulsive. Optimizers don't like it but there is nothing wrong with them

aobst128 wrote:

nephandys wrote:

chapter6 wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

You know, 14 dex works great on a monk going into dragon disciple. You're a bit fragile from levels 1-3, but you have the same AC as max dex from levels 4-9, and they only maintain a 1 point advantage until the uppermost levels. That's probably the best way to do a dragon stance monk. And given the archetype has an Access and not Prerequisite, most GMs will probably let the dragon monk take dragon disciple.

Edit: As currently written, the mountain stance monk does it even better, but that's unintended and on the chopping block for errata.

Drakeheart mutagen greatly helps.

This here is how I keep my ac up on my laughing shadow magus with a 14 dex. I'm level 7 in the current campaign and get a total of +7 to ac. Allows me the unarmored speed boost while keeping a good ac

Genuine question - how easy is it to spend 12 gp and eventually 3000 gp on every single fight? Plus the 1-2 actions sacrificed at the beginning of a fight to consume. Granted once it's lasting an hour that's probably less important. Based on my experience that seems pretty rough but I've only been playing for a year and a half.

I assume alchemist dedication.

That was my initial assumption but since I didn't see it mentioned I figured I'd ask.

Yes my Magus has the alchemist dedication

Captain Morgan wrote:

You know, 14 dex works great on a monk going into dragon disciple. You're a bit fragile from levels 1-3, but you have the same AC as max dex from levels 4-9, and they only maintain a 1 point advantage until the uppermost levels. That's probably the best way to do a dragon stance monk. And given the archetype has an Access and not Prerequisite, most GMs will probably let the dragon monk take dragon disciple.

Edit: As currently written, the mountain stance monk does it even better, but that's unintended and on the chopping block for errata.

Drakeheart mutagen greatly helps.

This here is how I keep my ac up on my laughing shadow magus with a 14 dex. I'm level 7 in the current campaign and get a total of +7 to ac. Allows me the unarmored speed boost while keeping a good ac

Arcane cascade only works in melee. That's why it's not useful to starlit span magus

Guess it depends on build. The way I built my magus, he has a flame oracle dedication. I use his aura to turn on cascade and it gives his strikes persistent fire damage. With that I don't need to spellstrike every turn I try to anyways

No I'm not. I actually play a laughing shadow Magus with an Oracle dedication. Playing in Extinction Curse. So far I've taken 1 AoO and were level 7.

No and you would never try to. But what can a magus do besides spellstrike that a fighter with magical dedication can't? Spellstrike plus take a magical dedication and get more mileage out of it than that fighter. Since the utility and attack spells become useful.

Ahh ok. Tradition I see, to each there own being squishy I like being able to push them away especially if you have a reach weapon or if they don't have reach.

Why do people keep bring up shocking grasp like it's the best low level spell to spellstrike with? Because it's 2d12 plus 1 persistent damage? I'd rather use hydraulic push. It's 3d6 goes up by 2d6 every level and push them back 5ft.

chapter6 wrote:

Seisho wrote:

Fun fact I noticed yesterday

If you play with dual class - the Twisting Tree staff fulfills the requirements for a Ruffian Racket Rogue

A d8 one handed and d10 two handed. Damn actually really good

I don't think the two handed trait applies and, even if, the ruffian has a limit

Quote:

You don't gain these benefits if the weapon has a damage die larger than d8 (after applying any abilities that alter its damage die size).

Ok so it becomes a straight d8 weapon

Fun fact I noticed yesterday

If you play with dual class - the Twisting Tree staff fulfills the requirements for a Ruffian Racket Rogue

A d8 one handed and d10 two handed. Damn actually really good