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Also, recent writing about Cheliax seems to imply it's one stiff kick from falling over.God, I wish.
Yeah, it's rather the opposite. The state is still a Great Power, if not as strong relatively as it has been, but the regime is stronger internally than it has ever been. Its erstwhile enemies were armed insurrectionists with a serious chance at taking power; its current enemies are either frivolous showboats or else reduced to meaningless intrigue. The regime is so secure that it is able to stage-manage and defang what should have been a social revolution.
I suppose it depends whose kick. A stuff kick from the usual forces which topple authoritarian regimes seems like it would need a lot more help. On the other hand a stiff kick from a party of random adventurers? That's eminently doable but only if and when the narrative forces the be decide that the story of finally toppling Cheliax's infernal rule is greater than the opportunities provides by remaining the way it is, as an oppressive regime literally staffed with devils as enforcers.
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I think if Paizo ever did do away with Cheliax (and I'm not sure I'm 100% onboard dumping its most clearly defined and universally agreed Bad Guy faction) it would have to be a big event built up to over years. I speculated a while back that Cheliax's colonial decline and Taldor's recent stability naturally puts the two nations of a collision course, if not militarily then geopolitically, and you could do a pretty neat long-term story about Cheliax cobbling together an Iron Curtain with Nidal, Isger and bringing Molthune into the diplomatic fold in exchange for troops to fight Tar-Baphon, and convincing Andoran to remain neutral, as a bulwark against rising Taldan influence. Taldor has a vested interest in keeping on good terms with Kyonin and Druma, stabilising neighbouring Galt, and keeping Andoran as much on-side as it can, and of the two I'd guess most Andorans would see Taldor as a more natural ally than Cheliax. But Taldor, a conservative monarchist nation with a history of witch-hunts against political dissidents, might not be the easiest neighbour to get along with for the militantly democratic Andoran, especially if Taldor gets involved in Galt to "nation-build." For all its faults, it's the only other open democracy in Avistan and Andoran might prefer it remain democratic, even if Taldor intends to bring stability to its messy former territory.
Somebody told me that Cheliax ends Hell's Vengeance inventing the magical equivalent of a nuclear warhead and kickstarting an international arms race of other Great Powers to get the same weapon, but not much more than that. Having Cheliax playing the bad guy in an overarching Cold War analogy, with secret agents and informants and infiltrators with diabolic help, versus the monarchist Taldor and neighbours' suspicions about their imperial aims, would be neat to see. And it would give Cheliax a bit more to it than the crumbling empire it was in 1e. It already has Western Rome, Imperial Spain and the Third Reich in its box of creative influences to draw from, throwing in some Cold War Russia with its political purges and paranoia while simultaneously trying to establish itself as the rival of the region's only other superpower for foreign aid and nation-building, and the ways their neighbours perceive it, could be narratively quite rich. And if, at the end of it, the Iron Curtain falls and the House of Thrune is overthrown, make it a big event - let that Cold War heat up, and all the tenseness that might entail. How does Absalom feel seeing two massive naval powers meet not too far from its shores? What are Northern Garund doing while the Avistani powers are f$$+ing around? Is Taldor sending agents Ravounel to get them involved or does Ravounel have reasons to oppose Taldor of their own? And will Qadira sit on the sidelines, or wait until Taldor are too invested before it strikes, like the Ghevran Campaigns?
If such a story ends with the overthrow or exile of House Thrune, you then have a powerful faction of devil-binders with a grudge out there looking to take back what was once theirs. Asmodeus is a powerful patron for a reason, and losing his toehold on Golarion might draw his personal attention, even if he's prevented by the old stalemate from acting directly. Maybe someone has the bright idea of cloning Abrogail II in a secret lab somewhere in Arcadia...
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I don’t think Cheliax is going anywhere, but like the shift from slavery to debt traps shows, the type of villain they’ll be is likely to keep evolving. The idea of southern Avistan polarizing between Chelish and Taldan blocs be in the post-Whispering Tyrant era is *super* exciting.
Molthune and Nirmathas are likely to end up on opposite sides of that split, while I imagine Druma and Oprak would try to instead choose profitable neutrality.
Yeah, it's rather the opposite. The state is still a Great Power, if not as strong relatively as it has been, but the regime is stronger internally than it has ever been. Its erstwhile enemies were armed insurrectionists with a serious chance at taking power; its current enemies are either frivolous showboats or else reduced to meaningless intrigue. The regime is so secure that it is able to stage-manage and defang what should have been a social revolution.Also, recent writing about Cheliax seems to imply it's one stiff kick from falling over.God, I wish.
Actually, its current enemy had Abrigail Thrune II capitulate and try and help them to stave off repercussions from angering them. :D
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I don’t think Cheliax is going anywhere, but like the shift from slavery to debt traps shows, the type of villain they’ll be is likely to keep evolving. The idea of southern Avistan polarizing between Chelish and Taldan blocs be in the post-Whispering Tyrant era is *super* exciting.
Molthune and Nirmathas are likely to end up on opposite sides of that split, while I imagine Druma and Oprak would try to instead choose profitable neutrality.
Exactly. As long as Tar-Baphon is on the board, he's the biggest game piece on it and nobody should be ignoring him. But if some heroes eventually managed to defeat him properly, you could have a new geopolitical Great Game ready and waiting to take up the slack. And the longer Tar-Baphon lasts, the longer Cheliax has to get itself ready for it.
Can't wait to see Bond villains with terrible Chelish accents all over Pathfinder 3e :p
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Can't wait to see Bond villains with terrible Chelish accents all over Pathfinder 3e :p
"Do you expect me to talk?"
"No, Mister Valeros, I expect you to die."
"If I fail my saving throw I'll just roll a new character."
"Then I trust your next character will be more successful."
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Actually, its current enemy had Abrigail Thrune II capitulate and try and help them to stave off repercussions from angering them. :DYeah, it's rather the opposite. The state is still a Great Power, if not as strong relatively as it has been, but the regime is stronger internally than it has ever been. Its erstwhile enemies were armed insurrectionists with a serious chance at taking power; its current enemies are either frivolous showboats or else reduced to meaningless intrigue. The regime is so secure that it is able to stage-manage and defang what should have been a social revolution.Also, recent writing about Cheliax seems to imply it's one stiff kick from falling over.God, I wish.
This is deeply unserious.
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On the thought of a Chelish bloc that likely also contains Isger, Nidal, and potentially Molthune, it’s interesting that we don’t see much in the way of multi-nation alliances in the setting. I know a big part of that was 1e largely treating individual countries as settings unto themselves, but it would still be neat to see some regional pacts and alliances formalize themselves.
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Molthune isn't allying with Cheliax, Cheliax wants its erstwhile territory back and Molthune wants to subjugate Isger and eastern Menador. Tar-Baphon-wise, Cheliax gains nothing from an alliance with Molthune that it doesn't already have from a benign neutrality (namely, space and a powerful army between it and the great threat). Molthune is also a target of Oprak's, and Cheliax has no reason to want to stick its head into that quagmire. Nidal only isn't an issue on that score because it has a nonaggression pact with Azaersi.
Besides Nidal and Isger, Cheliax's alliance system almost certainly includes Ravounel, albeit probably for only a limited time and/or purpose, and through it, the aquatic elves of Irim and Mirivenn. If it wants an ally in the north Korvosa makes for a more loyal and pliable friend than Molthune. The trouble with all these powers is that apart from Cheliax they're quite weak in terms of both power projection and, apart from Nidal and Cheliax, regime strength - this alliance system is not a concert of peer great powers comparable to, say, the Four Queens about the Sellen. This is helpful to Cheliax in terms of maintaining its control over its alliance system, but not so much in actually augmenting its power.
Cheliax should be seeking an alliance with Oprak, but it won't get one, the goblins remember too well the role Cheliax played in snuffing out their first attempt at a national awakening.
If Irrisen wasn't so far away from everything relevant to Chelish interests I could see Abrogail promoting an Egorian-Whitethrone axis, pitching herself as a fellow enlightened despot to Anastasia (while scheming to corrupt and dominate her pliable - in Abrogail's view - mind) and their countries' bloody hierarchies as mutually compatible to the Jadwiga. Alas, it is so far away.
I imagine that both the fight against Tar-Baphon and general Andoren sentiments mean that Nirmathas can expect a shot in the arm of foreign aid - and once their rival starts making international friends, Molthune is likely to realize it needs some, too. Going it alone has done nothing but lose them face and territory.
The lesson for Avistan's monarchs to learn is that no man - or nation - is an island, and it's not just the good guys who can figure out cooperation.
If Irrisen wasn't so far away from everything relevant to Chelish interests I could see Abrogail promoting an Egorian-Whitethrone axis, pitching herself as a fellow enlightened despot to Anastasia (while scheming to corrupt and dominate her pliable - in Abrogail's view - mind) and their countries' bloody hierarchies as mutually compatible to the Jadwiga. Alas, it is so far away.
Well, the Taldans still hire warriors from the neighbouring Lands of the Linnorm Kings. So they already have a diplomatic foot in the door there, if not across the threshold. I doubt Taldor much cares about the internecine feuds of the rival kingdoms, and vice versa, but it would care if suddenly its supply of warriors uninvested in Taldan politics started drying up. The Linnorm Kings have never given up hope of "liberating" Irrisen from Baba Yaga. Cheliax might send tentative feelers to Queen Anastasia, if only so Taldor doesn't have the region uncontested. A proxy-war before the real fireworks show begins. I could also see Varisia becoming a hotbed of factional conflict, with pro-Taldan, pro-Chelaxian, and pro-"they can both sod off" factions seething among the city-states there, especially as New Thassilon establishes itself to their north. In fact, since the New Thassilonians have already tangled with the Linnorm Kings, the court of Belimarius might be where Cheliax sends its ambassadors first while perhaps Taldor tries to solidify the rule of the less unstable Sorshen.
As for Molthune, I was thinking about Cheliax establishing a literal wall, a buffer between itself and Taldan or Taldan-friendly lands. Neither have much reason to like each other, but they have enough reasons to dislike Taldor more, especially if, as Keftiu suggested, they look on Nirmathas more favourably. If Nirmathas becomes too bothersome for Oprak to invade, and respect their treaty with Nidal, their next target almost inevitably has to be Molthune. But as you said, Oprak has plenty of reasons not to like Cheliax as well while it's neighbouring one of their allies. Treaties are only as good as they're respected, and it just takes one incident to tear them up. Molthune can have greater territorial ambitions, including Menador, AND reluctantly accept being a Chellish satellite for a while if it deters or holds back the Ironfang Legion.
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Well, the Taldans still hire warriors from the neighbouring Lands of the Linnorm Kings.
*snip*
Just homing in on this one line. Taldor is at the southeasternmost part of Avistan. The Lands of the Linnorm Kings is at the northwesternmost part. The opposite of neighboring, they have at least seven countries between them overland. It's a long journey from one to the other, so the connection is likely deep.
As for the actual thread topic of what I'd like to see...
I'd like to see Isger, a land that regularly relies on adventurers to handle its issues due to Cheliax's unwillingness to help, to get its time in the sun.
I'd like to see some more info on the mountain ranges in the region, especially as they could be places to introduce new ancestries.
I'd like more info on Vyre, some update on where Ravounel is headed (although that bit could be covered in Firebrands, who knows), some details related to Nidal and its faith-driven conflicts.
Perhaps some more info on lesser infernal deities observed in Cheliax, shadow planar ties to Nidal, perhaps looks into how Ravounel is handling religion in such a faith-focused meta-region.
I think an angle on the interactions of faiths would be really interesting.
Just homing in on this one line. Taldor is at the southeasternmost part of Avistan. The Lands of the Linnorm Kings is at the northwesternmost part. The opposite of neighboring, they have at least seven countries between them overland. It's a long journey from one to the other, so the connection is likely deep.
I meant neighbouring Irrisen. I'm aware Taldor and the Land of the Linnorm Kings are not geographically close.
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I imagine that both the fight against Tar-Baphon and general Andoren sentiments mean that Nirmathas can expect a shot in the arm of foreign aid - and once their rival starts making international friends, Molthune is likely to realize it needs some, too. Going it alone has done nothing but lose them face and territory.
The lesson for Avistan's monarchs to learn is that no man - or nation - is an island, and it's not just the good guys who can figure out cooperation.
As for Molthune, I was thinking about Cheliax establishing a literal wall, a buffer between itself and Taldan or Taldan-friendly lands. Neither have much reason to like each other, but they have enough reasons to dislike Taldor more, especially if, as Keftiu suggested, they look on Nirmathas more favourably. If Nirmathas becomes too bothersome for Oprak to invade, and respect their treaty with Nidal, their next target almost inevitably has to be Molthune. But as you said, Oprak has plenty of reasons not to like Cheliax as well while it's neighbouring one of their allies. Treaties are only as good as they're respected, and it just takes one incident to tear them up. Molthune can have greater territorial ambitions, including Menador, AND reluctantly accept being a Chellish satellite for a while if it deters or holds back the Ironfang Legion.
The Steel Falcons have been smuggling aid to Nirmathas since before 4711 (https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Nirmathas#cite_note-ISWG-265-8) and this never led to Chelaxian-Molthuni rapproachment. If anything, this assistance is likely to have tapered off rather than increased since 4719. Transport from, say, Almas to Tamran was always difficult. Prior to 4719 there were basically two routes: via Lake Encarthan (from ports in Kyonin or Druma) or via the Bloodsworn Vale (from Korvosa). Both routes are now effectively closed: Lake Encarthan by Tar Baphon, and the Bloodsworn Vale by Oprak. Even before 4719 shipments across Lake Encarthan were subject to seizure as contraband by the Molthuni navy. Andoran can't even shift to the hideously expensive overland route through Ustalav, because it is now effectively closed by the Gravelands. That just leaves magical transport, which is necessarily limited in volume unless you're Oprak or have and can activate relevant aiudara.
Cooperation and engagement are simply not the same thing as a mutual defense pact. And even if Molthune might find it in its interest to waive its claims to Chelaxian and Isgeri territory in exchange for a mutual defense pact, that still leaves the Chelaxian side, which has little to no reason to agree to such an arrangement. Molthuni claims are largely illusory, with Molthune's rights being shadowy to nonexistent, Molthune's army not measuring up to Cheliax's numerically (and possibly not even quality-wise, factoring in devil support), and the terrain massively favoring a defender. Molthune will interpose itself between Tar Baphon and Cheliax regardless of whether Cheliax pledges to defend Molthune, simply because it's in between the two powers and has an interest in defending itself. So Cheliax would demand more for its assistance, including but not limited to the right to station soldiers and devils on Molthuni territory, extraterritoriality for same, either independent command of its own forces or joint command for joint forces, and supply of its forces by Molthune alone, all of which amounts to subordination of Molthune to Cheliax - something which is surely a bridge too far for the Molthuni elite.
Well, the Taldans still hire warriors from the neighbouring Lands of the Linnorm Kings. So they already have a diplomatic foot in the door there, if not across the threshold. I doubt Taldor much cares about the internecine feuds of the rival kingdoms, and vice versa, but it would care if suddenly its supply of warriors uninvested in Taldan politics started drying up. The Linnorm Kings have never given up hope of "liberating" Irrisen from Baba Yaga. Cheliax might send tentative feelers to Queen Anastasia, if only so Taldor doesn't have the region uncontested. A proxy-war before the real fireworks show begins. I could also see Varisia becoming a hotbed of factional conflict, with pro-Taldan, pro-Chelaxian, and pro-"they can both sod off" factions seething among the city-states there, especially as New Thassilon establishes itself to their north. In fact, since the New Thassilonians have already tangled with the Linnorm Kings, the court of Belimarius might be where Cheliax sends its ambassadors first while perhaps Taldor tries to solidify the rule of the less unstable Sorshen.
Taldor having the ministers in Kalsgard to hire mercenaries from the Linnorm Kingdoms says nothing about Cheliax's presence - or more importantly interests - in the far north. Even if Irrisen believed Taldor was a legitimate threat to it (which it has no reason to, the prospect of actual assistance from Taldor to the Linnorm Kingdoms is extremely remote and belied by Taldor's failure to bestir itself during or after Belimarius's conquest of Southmoor and most of the Ironbound Islands), it has little or nothing to offer Cheliax except leverage against the Linnorm Kingdoms - which are not themselves a threat to Cheliax! Nor do I see Cheliax backing Belimarius. It would mean backing the obvious loser in any sort of conflict with Sorshen (who Cheliax wants strong if distant for the same reason it wants Molthune strong and distant - it gets a bulwark against Tar Baphon without having to promise anything in return simply because of how the geography is laid out) and a waste of resources.
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Although, if Cheliax wants to play for a real coup, it can and probably should attempt to organize a collective security pact between it, Molthune, and Nirmathas (and possibly Korvosa). At a stroke, if it could be accomplished, this would encircle and isolate Oprak, defuse the war between Molthune and Nirmathas so both will be stronger against Tar Baphon than either would alone, positions Cheliax as an honest broker between them (who else more suited than their former imperial overlord?), and shuts Andoran out of western Avistan diplomatically (except that it then probably reaches out to Oprak).
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Andoran and Oprak are really strange bedfellows. I'm not saying they couldn't make it work, but that's nobody's first choice.
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I think the deity section of a Lost Omens Old Cheliax would be really interesting. Especially potentially learning about various hidden factions, and dealing with those whose faith are banned or restricted. As well as learning about even potential holidays/events based off of religion in the regions.
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I think the deity section of a Lost Omens Old Cheliax would be really interesting. Especially potentially learning about various hidden factions, and dealing with those whose faith are banned or restricted. As well as learning about even potential holidays/events based off of religion in the regions.
There's a bunch of really fun obscure Infernal Dukes who could presumably feature. I love the idea of scrambling to find a non-Asmodean patron from Hell.
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Given that Cheliax is practically the Hellknight heartland, it would give an opportunity to update the Order of the Godclaw as a Pantheon. But with Cheliax's waning fortunes, it would be neat to see Chelaxians turning elsewhere - other Infernal Princes getting involved to prop up their master, demons getting a foothold among the disenfranchised, the Asmodean church's attendance waning and people embracing other non-evil gods, and the Asmodeans' efforts to retain its hold on power and fear after it put down the Glorious Reclamation. They might be stronger in the east, but letting the west slip, especially as just to its north Ravounel is finding its way and showing that life after Asmodeus is possible.
Suffice to say, if Asmodeus takes a personal interest in Cheliax he has reason to put his house in order as best he can.
Plus, IIRC there's some machinations happening with a Worm That Walks, or something like that, infiltrating the highest levels of Chelaxian government and sowing dissent that seems like ideal setup for a social intrigue Adventure Path rooting out and destroying - after all, better the devil you know than the one you don't.
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I think playing a Hellknight with an encyclopedic knowledge of the Measure and the Chain and using it for good purposes by citing deliberately contradictory statutes and being as obstructive and annoyingly bureaucratic as possible towards the bad guys would be a lot of fun to play.
"You wanna arrest these citizens who are peacefully assembling? I don't see an Arrest Warrant 27B-6, buddy! No, it DOESN'T matter if the courthouse stopped printing those forms 20 years ago, the law's still on the books, so it's still enforceable, and by the Godclaw, I'm gonna enforce it!"
"We need to open the granary and distribute the food the baron's hoarding? Okay, if we go to the third floor, speak with Eleanor and ask for an Emergency Requisition 33Z-8, bring that to Tomasso in Produce Distribution, then take what HE gives us to the granary, the guards will just let us right in, and even the baron can't argue with his own seal."
That second example reminds me strongly of that one scene from the original The Incredibles and I love it.
Come to think of it, how is Ravounel doing? Assuming it ends up with the assumed ending, and not the People's Democratic Republic of Ravounel that, say, my own party were hoping for before the campaign fizzled, how are they doing as a neighbour to a post-Glorious Reclamation Cheliax? They have the best access to south Varisia, and IIRC most cross-Arcadian Ocean shipping ended up in Kintargo's ports which was why it was so profitable. Is that shipping still going to Kintargo, or have Cheliax started diverting its trade ships to Pezzack (which had its own secessionist agitators)? And ecclesiastically, what gods are likely to have found footings there? Sarenrae was explicitly banned, which suggests she had enough of a presence there, and a new nation finding its footing would probably value the stability that Abadar brings, and someone like Milani and Cayden might be popular in a place full of former or escaped slaves, and some lingering Asmodeans battling deep unpopularity to try and spread the good word about Asmodeus's gift of tyrant. How are the Irorans doing? And how are they engaging with neighbouring Nidal? My character was an aasimar who was sent to Kintargo as a child to avoid the inevitable fate of Aasimars in Nidal, is that common and, now that Ravounel isn't protected by House Thrune's pact with the Nidalese government, would the Nidalese be interested in picking a fight with them?
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There's a broad strokes overview of 2e Ravounel in the back of Age of Ashes #3! I came into the game with the new edition, so I don't have much familiarity with (or fondness for) old Ravounel, but to summarize what it says as best I can...
Some heroes did the events of Hell's Rebels, styling themselves after Silver Ravens, collapsing the Menador Gap, finding the Kintargo Contract, securing Ravounel's independence, and so on. The nation is ruled by Jilia Bainilus, former lord-mayor and now-Domina (a pre-Thrune Chelish rank), with the aid of the Silver Council (a mix of rebel-aligned noble houses and Kintargo's wealthy). It says that the Silver Ravens have vanished on some "long-term and mysterious mission in the Darklands beneath Kintargo."
The Hellknight Order of the Torrent shares Castle Kintargo with the government, so that they can be "called upon to help keep the peace whenever necessary," while the Order of the Rack was driven from the country. Vyre is left alone, and doesn't have anything to do with governance beyond its own borders. Negotiations between the Strix/Itarii tribe of Kitkasiticka and representatives of the Silver Council are ongoing, but troubled. The region's aquatic elves and half-elves don't consider themselves part of Ravounel at all.
Book 3's adventure content tangentially deals with a diplomatic delegation from Nidal to Ravounel, aiming for everything from trade and cultural exchange to "velstracs on the streets of Kintargo." The idea's unpopular with the public - PCs see a small protest - but the option is called out of aiding Nidal's image issues. We also meet the Lacunafex, an elf-run spy ring masquerading as a school for girls since the civil war, and see some of the Bellflower presence in the city.
tl;dr: A far cry from any peasant revolt or people's republic, and grudgingly cooperating with Cheliax while not shutting the door to Nidalese relations. Ravounel's identity seems to be an island of pre-Thrune Chelish culture, rather than something more akin to Andoran and Galt.
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I imagine we will hear more about Ravounel in the forthcoming Firebrands book.
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They have the best access to south Varisia, and IIRC most cross-Arcadian Ocean shipping ended up in Kintargo's ports which was why it was so profitable. Is that shipping still going to Kintargo, or have Cheliax started diverting its trade ships to Pezzack (which had its own secessionist agitators)?
Cheliax actually diverted the Arcadian trade to Corentyn shortly before Hell's Rebels. The loss of Sunset Imports' monopoly over the Arcadian trade was one of the major drivers for its owners in House Vashnarstill to support the rebellion. Free to compete with the Corentines, it has recaptured some of that trade by the time of Age of Ashes, though I very much doubt at the same rate of profit unless either Ravounel ships are permitted to pay the same duties at Anchor's End as Chelaxian ships (whether because Cheliax permits them that right under the terms of its treaty with Ravounel, or because a Segada Protocol power has seized the colony and charges both Ravounel and Cheliax the same port duties).
And ecclesiastically, what gods are likely to have found footings there? Sarenrae was explicitly banned, which suggests she had enough of a presence there, and a new nation finding its footing would probably value the stability that Abadar brings, and someone like Milani and Cayden might be popular in a place full of former or escaped slaves, and some lingering Asmodeans battling deep unpopularity to try and spread the good word about Asmodeus's gift of tyrant. How are the Irorans doing?
In Kintargo prior to Hell's Rebels, Asmodeus's church was established, Abadar's, Shelyn's, and Zon-Kuthon's were tolerated, Calistria's, Cayden's, Desna's, [Milani's, ]and Sarenrae's were persecuted, and the remaining core deities' churches were unregulated due to being basically nonexistent. Irori's cult was purged in the Night of Ashes and, unlike the underground Sarenites and Milanites who joined the rebellion, doesn't seem to have rebuilt itself to any notable degree.
The rebellion disestablished the Church of Asmodeus, seized all its assets, and established a regime of universal religious toleration within the limits of public order. The assets of the Church of Asmodeus, beyond the Cathedral, are unknown, but probably included a substantial cash reserve and some amount of real property in the countryside gained as a result of usury over the nobility, as well as pendent mortgages. If the new government had any sense at all, it took advantage of the latter to redistribute land to its landless supporters and to freedmen, and kept any cash reserve as a treasury, but any land reform program is purely speculative. I like to imagine that the new government also seized the House of Golden Veils and its associated assets, gave the original property back to the Calistrians, and kept the balance to supplement its treasury and land reform program, but that is purely my headcanon (as, again, is the existence of any land reform program).
Norgorber's church controls a plurality of Vyre's government, but doesn't suppress other churches. Cypress Point is led by a priestess of Desna, Acisazi by a druidess, and Tastikka by an oracle.
And how are they engaging with neighbouring Nidal? My character was an aasimar who was sent to Kintargo as a child to avoid the inevitable fate of Aasimars in Nidal, is that common and, now that Ravounel isn't protected by House Thrune's pact with the Nidalese government, would the Nidalese be interested in picking a fight with them?
By the time of Age of Ashes, Nidal and Ravounel have something of a detente, with Ravounel hosting a Nidalese diplomatic and trade mission. The Thrune's Chance program, a lottery permitting a few lucky souls to emigrate from Nidal to Cheliax, probably continues with the destination being shifted to Ravounel. Church of Desna is popular on the North Plains both in Ravounel and Nidal, and is the main anti-government group in Nidal, but is not subordinated in that regard to Ravounel's government.
I imagine we will hear more about Ravounel in the forthcoming Firebrands book.
If we do, I sincerely hope it is in the context of what the Firebrands are doing, with the Silver Ravens as their political arm, to continue the struggle for the transition from the current Dominion to a democratic Republic. They should, at least, be demanding codification of the constitution, regular and frequent (every two years at least) elections to the Silver Council by universal adult suffrage throughout the country, a uniform administration of justice with equality before the law, and broad local self-government within a uniform framework. As opposed to the current collection of ad hoc constitutive laws, self-selecting Silver Council, and fragmented and particularist justice and local government systems. As for how to win these demands, Ravounel has a cooperative movement and should have a trade union movement, giving the labor aristocracy and the mass of the people economic weapons with which to leverage political power. If the government has done comprehensive land reform it will have a mass of armed loyalists from the countryside to use against the urban workers - if it hasn't, or has done so incompletely, it won't and the landless ex-slaves and tenant farmers would form another base of support for a democratic republic.
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Is that shipping still going to Kintargo, or have Cheliax started diverting its trade ships to Pezzack (which had its own secessionist agitators)?
Coming back to the bold, we got quite the look into Pezzack and its factions in Towns of the Inner Sea, the Out of Anarchy scenario for Pathfinder Society, and Pathfinder Tales' Nightblade. Worth noting is that the town is not merely secessionist but since 4710 has been under actual blockade from the sea and siege from the land. There ain't no shipping going in or out, the primary industry is whaling which is closely policed by the blockade fleet. This situation is highly unstable, and we should see how it evolved in the years since Towns was published.
The White Thistles/Fine Company in particular (along with the Rose and Rake company in Magnimar) fit the Silver Ravens' vibe like a glove and I will be very upset if they don't end up affiliating with the Firebrands either through the SRs as a branch, or directly.
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I'm awfully late to this particular discussion, but: Cheliax is great as a source of conflict for the setting, which means it should continue to be so. But as many others have noted it's taken a lot of losses lately; if you want it to continue to be a threat and not just a joke/punching bag it needs to have some wins & shake up the status quo in a way that creates adventure hooks and flashpoints. These can be big events that occur "off screen" like the Vidrian revolution, as long as it's clear that the forces of evil are not idle in Golarion, and heroes are needed.
Cheliax burnishing its image by helping against Tar-Baphon is a great concept, and I like the twist of formally ending slavery only to trap people in insurmountable debt or other handles for social control. But Cheliax is also the Big Imperialist of the inner sea, and for that to work it has to be a military threat worth taking seriously.
The way I square that circle comes from the Construct Handbook for 1e--it has a template called Hell Engine, which empowers golems or whatever via infernal power granted as a boon in a contract. This screams "Chelish rearmament" to me, and Cheliax fielding companies of infernally-powered clockwork soldiers as shock troops feels thematic in a variety of ways. After all, Hell (like any loan shark worth the name) is naturally happy to help Cheliax out of their current pickle with an infusion of hellish golems, just sign on the dotted line! Cheliax gets a suite of impressive new weapons for intimidation and keeping their grip on power; they can even dispatch some of these as a token force to the Gravelands to mulch zombies and generate good PR. You could also have Mammon take a more active hand, since trade and wealth opens a lot of doors and fabulously wealthy diabolists who use their connections to collect/call in favors or gain legal carveouts for their special interests is an angle. Heck, combine the two: Cheliax gets their hooks to their neighbors with, like, a line of hellforged tractors or something. Making themselves ever more indispensible to their neighbors' economies is a great way to add some quandries to a diabolists-need-punching scenario.
As far as the rest of the region goes, I'm not really sure what should be done with Nidal--it's a shadowy land of evil directly beholden to Zon-Kuthon and it's seemingly not eager to become expansionistic or otherwise generate large plot hooks. Isger seems ripe for cloak-and-dagger influence struggles between Cheliax, Andoran, and Molthune. The whole region revolves around Cheliax, and honestly that's alright.
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It genuinely does feel like "we're going to march an unlimited number of outsiders onto the material plane for the benefit of a terrestrial monarch at the behest of a gods" is one of those "breaches of divine detente" that would lead to a cascading series of responses from allied and enemy deities.
Like Iomedae did not get personally involved with the Glorious Reclamation, but if the literal armies of Hell start marching en masse to subjugate Cheliax she probably would. If we get to the point of "actual deities throwing down on Golarion" we are absolutely risking the integrity of Rovagug's cage.
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It genuinely does feel like "we're going to march an unlimited number of outsiders onto the material plane for the benefit of a terrestrial monarch at the behest of a gods" is one of those "breaches of divine detente" that would lead to a cascading series of responses from allied and enemy deities.
It's not a matter of Hell marching its legions into Cheliax, but a matter of Cheliax summoning Hellish legions to serve. A fine distinction, but the gods all permit the calling of outsiders, and if the devil-binders of Egorian have managed to get a leg up on doing it efficiently, well, deal with it.
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Do you want divine arms-races? Because that's how you get divine arms-races.
I'm pretty sure Asmodeus takes perverse pleasure in owning Cheliax while actually giving them very little in return. So whatever help the infernal empire gets, is going to be with drips and drabs.
Remember, Asmodeus believes his win is inevitable, as Hell is the only successful society. So he's not actually interested in helping Cheliax defeat their political enemies except in order to set the hook deeper in Cheliax.
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Do you want divine arms-races? Because that's how you get divine arms-races.I'm pretty sure Asmodeus takes perverse pleasure in owning Cheliax while actually giving them very little in return. So whatever help the infernal empire gets, is going to be with drips and drabs.
Remember, Asmodeus believes his win is inevitable, as Hell is the only successful society. So he's not actually interested in helping Cheliax defeat their political enemies except in order to set the hook deeper in Cheliax.
You're correct. My statement was more in response to the notion that a Good god like Iomedae or Sarenrae would do the same thing Asmodeus has done with Cheliax and open portals to Heaven or Nirvana in good-aligned nations. Presumably if such a thing occur ed, Asmodeus would use that as justification to escalate in Cheliax, which then creates the arms-race. That's why other gods don't DO what he did.
Besides, if the success against the Worldwound has proved anything, mortals can get big world-shaping goals done just fine without that kind of direct divine aid, and I think that's something the Good-aligned gods want to emphasize.
"The mortals are gonna be okay. They've got this! We'll help if they ask, but they're doing great all by themselves!"
Need more opportunities for Thrune punching. Preferably done by 3 halflings in a trenchcoat
Show the complete stats of General Gorthoklek and Contessa Lrilatha
Do you want divine arms-races? Because that's how you get divine arms-races.I'm pretty sure Asmodeus takes perverse pleasure in owning Cheliax while actually giving them very little in return. So whatever help the infernal empire gets, is going to be with drips and drabs.
Remember, Asmodeus believes his win is inevitable, as Hell is the only successful society. So he's not actually interested in helping Cheliax defeat their political enemies except in order to set the hook deeper in Cheliax.
You're correct. My statement was more in response to the notion that a Good god like Iomedae or Sarenrae would do the same thing Asmodeus has done with Cheliax and open portals to Heaven or Nirvana in good-aligned nations. Presumably if such a thing occur ed, Asmodeus would use that as justification to escalate in Cheliax, which then creates the arms-race. That's why other gods don't DO what he did.
Besides, if the success against the Worldwound has proved anything, mortals can get big world-shaping goals done just fine without that kind of direct divine aid, and I think that's something the Good-aligned gods want to emphasize.
"The mortals are gonna be okay. They've got this! We'll help if they ask, but they're doing great all by themselves!"
Having demigods and mythic people is pretty much "direct divine aid".
Its just the scale is lower than the big gods.
An Asmodean lawyer might argue otherwise, since if that's true then their presence on Golarion is already a violation of the divine/infernal status quo that the celestial realms have as much right to respond to in kind. They might argue that the methods they are using are a useful loop-hole since it doesn't involve direct action by the gods or their master, and thus if the Gods aren't doing the same then that is on them, neither obligated nor entitled to. If the side of Good isn't as willing to get involved, and leave it to their mortal or quasi-divine servants, that's on them.
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Show the complete stats of General Gorthoklek and Contessa Lrilatha
Gorthoklek is a bog-standard Pit Fiend and doesn't need to be anything else. Lrilatha would be interesting to see with a bespoke 2E statblock, even if she's relatively straightforward in 1E (LE erinyes inquisitor 13).
Well, the Worldwound was tied to the Abyss and the Abyss doesn't have lawyers.