Wolf with Advanced Maneuver ...knocks a dragon prone?!


Rules Discussion


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Just as the title says.

11th level characters, Wolf is a Savage Companion, attacking a Huge Blue Dragon, and yeah, rolls nat 20, Advanced manuever kicks in. It's not a free Trip, or Trip attack, it simply states 'knocks opponent prone.'

What rule line did I miss, or overlook, or is this...right? LOL I couldn't find anything that directly disrupted this in 5 minutes, so ...it happened?

So, school me-did I miss something obvious?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Correct. What's the issue?


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None. I just didn't want a large wolf to trip a dragon! :D


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Remember at this point the wolf's an anime uber-wolf, not a mundane large animal. That might help with the visualization. :-)


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Trip can affect creatures up to one size category larger, so a savage wolf could already trip a huge dragon even without the advanced maneuver.

Sovereign Court

The Wolf Drag martial arts maneuver already does this at level 6 :)


If it helps with the image of it, remember that if you (and by extension your Companion) are fighting something, then it's likely within four levels of you. Granted, four levels is a lot in terms of power in this game, but you're still going to be in the same ballpark of power. We're not talking about common citizen vs threat that can take out a city. We're talking threat that can take out a city vs a party of 4 that has a good chance of stopping it.

So, as Castilliano mentioned, this isn't just some mundane animal. It is a great hero's Animal Companion.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

This is the opposite of a problem. It's rad as heck.


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Not everyone's into rule of cool, and things like this are an excellent/unfortunate example(depending on where you come down on these things).


Red Metal wrote:
Trip can affect creatures up to one size category larger, so a savage wolf could already trip a huge dragon even without the advanced maneuver.

Agreed.

Wolf companion starts at size Small. Mature Companion will increase the size by one category to Medium. Then Savage upgrade will increase their size to Large.

At this point we are talking about a Wolf the size of a minivan.

A Huge Blue Dragon was the enemy in the example - which is only one size larger than Large.

So yeah. Any Savage Animal Companion that starts with at least size Small (I think all of them do) will be able to make a Huge Blue Dragon fall prone by making a Trip action.

Wolf gets to do it using Knockdown instead. So they can avoid making the Athletics check if they first succeed at a Strike action.

I don't see anything wrong with this. That is how the size and Trip rules are intended to work.

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Now, what is a bit more questionable is if a Nimble Wolf companion can use Knockdown to make a Huge creature prone. Because they would still only be size Medium as a Nimble companion. So they would not be able to use Trip on a Huge creature. But could they still use Knockdown on a Huge creature?

Similarly, can a Savage Wolf use Knockdown on a Gargantuan creature?

I don't see anything in the rules that says that they couldn't. Other Animal Companion types certainly couldn't because they would have to rely on Trip - which wouldn't affect creatures of that size. Even a Wolf couldn't use Trip to do it - they would have to use Knockdown after a successful Strike. But Wolf has special training and ability for taking down enemies. Very similar to the Titan Wrestler feat that PCs can take.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Tripping a larger creature is often more plausible than damaging it. All a trip requires is hitting the leg joint of a creature that has overextended to further throw them off balance. By comparison, the wolf would have a hard time finding part of the dragon small enough to hit fit in his mouth, much less bite with enough force to puncture the scales. You're basically aiming for wings only at that point.


A gargantuan creature would be about the size of a school bus.

A wolf the size of a minivan could probably take a decent size bite out of it.


Wait till they figure out flail critical specialization.


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Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
breithauptclan wrote:

A gargantuan creature would be about the size of a school bus.

A wolf the size of a minivan could probably take a decent size bite out of it.

I've always imagined gargantuan as being no smaller than a house. And a very large house at that.


Ravingdork wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:

A gargantuan creature would be about the size of a school bus.

A wolf the size of a minivan could probably take a decent size bite out of it.

I've always imagined gargantuan as being no smaller than a house. And a very large house at that.

I think theses comparisons are bit overclocked. A minivan is about the same size as an actual elephant, which is large.

It would be more accurate to say that your horse sized wolf is attacking an elephant sized dragon.

I think a school bus is a good analogy for gargantuan.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Elephant's are Huge typically according to their Bestiary description.

Horizon Hunters

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The African Bush Elephant, which is the largest Elephant species on Earth, is on average between 10-16 feet long, 8-13 feet tall, and 4-7 feet wide. It would be a bit large to fit into a 10x10 space, so I agree that Huge would be a better category for it. However, just because something is a specific category doesn't mean it fits in that cube. Humans are often over 5 feet tall, meaning their heads will intersect into the square above them, however since they are pretty thin for the other two dimensions, we just stick with the single space. A school bus can range from 20 to 45 feet, meaning that it wouldn't really fit into the 20x20 foot cube if it were one of those full length buses, but rather one of the shorter buses.


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Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Cordell Kintner wrote:
The African Bush Elephant, which is the largest Elephant species on Earth, is on average between 10-16 feet long, 8-13 feet tall, and 4-7 feet wide. It would be a bit large to fit into a 10x10 space, so I agree that Huge would be a better category for it. However, just because something is a specific category doesn't mean it fits in that cube. Humans are often over 5 feet tall, meaning their heads will intersect into the square above them, however since they are pretty thin for the other two dimensions, we just stick with the single space. A school bus can range from 20 to 45 feet, meaning that it wouldn't really fit into the 20x20 foot cube if it were one of those full length buses, but rather one of the shorter buses.

Quite right. Balors stand at 14 feet, so they should be Huge right? That's taller than an elephant after all! And yet they are Large. That's because, like humans, they are thin for their size.

That being said, if your GM isn't sizing their digital game tokens to make that balor's wingspan stretch outside it's grid space, they could be doing a lot more to make the party's enemies seem more fearsome.


Ravingdork wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:

A gargantuan creature would be about the size of a school bus.

A wolf the size of a minivan could probably take a decent size bite out of it.

I've always imagined gargantuan as being no smaller than a house. And a very large house at that.

Well, some of them may be. But Gargantuan size starts with a 20ft x 20ft space.

I guess some of the new mini-houses are that small.

But a Huge Blue Dragon would be less than 20 feet long. It would probably fit in your living room.

Horizon Hunters

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

They would probably be greater than 20ft long actually. As we've mentioned, creatures do not necessarily have to fit entirely within the confines of their space.

Take the Ancient Blue Dragon for example, they have a 20' reach with their Bite, and 25' with their tail. From head to the base of their tail, I would imagine they would be about 20'-25' long, with the tail adding additional 15-20' of length. When they curl their tail in, and stand up a bit, they could easily fit within their 20x20x20 cube.

Horizon Hunters

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Oh wait you said Huge not Gargantuan. No you're right, just scale everything I said down by 5ft or so lol.


I think a lot of people hear Gargantuan and think of Smaug or Sand Worms or Graboids. That isn't technically wrong. Those would be Gargantuan creatures - but only because Gargantuan is the largest size defined.

The low end of Gargantuan isn't on that scale.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Freehold DM wrote:
Not everyone's into rule of cool,

Agreed, but this isn't rule of cool though, it's just an ability functioning normally.

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