Blasts not being Strikes causes some problems


Kineticist Class


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Saw this raised in another thread and figured it deserved a topic to itself: Elemental Blasts not being Strikes means Kineticists lose out on a ton of abilities that grant them. A Kineticist who is quickened by the Haste spell can't use their Blast with that action, and can't make use of any Archetype Feats that grant or trigger off of making a Strike.


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Yup. I see how Logan might want to avoid people nabbing elemental Strikes to use with Flurry or Power Attack, but this unique exceptionalism is causing a certain clunkiness.

Same for it not being a spell or using character level instead of heightening - I get it, Magus can't spellstrike with it, but it just sits outside of the system everyone else plays.


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A kineticist can make Strikes if they are wielding an Elemental Weapon. So they are not entirely boxed out from benefiting from haste, etc.


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RexAliquid wrote:
A kineticist can make Strikes if they are wielding an Elemental Weapon. So they are not entirely boxed out from benefiting from haste, etc.

A Feat tax in order to be allowed to interact with a core assumption of the system isn't really an acceptable solution, IMO.


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Personally I prefer not feeling like Monk is mandatory so I can Flurry people from 120ft away.

They can still use Haste to Stride. I don't see a problem.


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Not every party has or uses haste effects constantly.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Guntermench wrote:

Personally I prefer not feeling like Monk is mandatory so I can Flurry people from 120ft away.

They can still use Haste to Stride. I don't see a problem.

I mean, they are still not "Real" unarmed attacks, so monk would not be able to use them anyway?


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Kekkres wrote:
Guntermench wrote:

Personally I prefer not feeling like Monk is mandatory so I can Flurry people from 120ft away.

They can still use Haste to Stride. I don't see a problem.

I mean, they are still not "Real" unarmed attacks, so monk would not be able to use them anyway?

As they are, yes. But if they were strictly an unarmed Strike you'd be able to.


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Still primed for poaching even if it's it's own action. I think it might be the thaumaturge's best ranged option on release, beating out the repeating hand crossbow with both fire and air blasts. Air in particular will match an adept wands 120 foot range. Perfect for snatching a cursed effigy with it's great range. Only takes up a hand which the thaumaturge is very efficient with.


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Elemental Blast also has the impulse trait, which in turn grants the manipulate trait, so melee kineticists will be provoking attacks of opportunity on their strikes.

I'm just not sure what Elemental Blast as its own action is trying to solve. I don't think the Strikes are so powerful that they'd break Flurry of Blows or Haste? And if Paizo is worried about non-kineticists getting them easily, the multiclass archetype could just start with weaker versions of the blasts.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

This class would benefit a loooot from Haste... But so do most gish characters.


Yeah I'd love Haste just for the Stride, forget the Strike.


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Haste was just an example, standing in for any other thing that gives you a Strike as part of it - something that Kineticists can’t utilize with their Blasts.


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Brew Bird wrote:

Elemental Blast also has the impulse trait, which in turn grants the manipulate trait, so melee kineticists will be provoking attacks of opportunity on their strikes.

I'm just not sure what Elemental Blast as its own action is trying to solve. I don't think the Strikes are so powerful that they'd break Flurry of Blows or Haste? And if Paizo is worried about non-kineticists getting them easily, the multiclass archetype could just start with weaker versions of the blasts.

The AoO triggering does check out, which is not great.

The playtest does seem to be pre-guarded against this obvious combo... but this wouldn't be the first time 2 classes synergize well. I agree that the better choice is to accept that the Monk and Kineticist will be multi-class buddies, but keep the power level to a tolerable level.

Scarab Sages

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EberronHoward wrote:
Brew Bird wrote:

Elemental Blast also has the impulse trait, which in turn grants the manipulate trait, so melee kineticists will be provoking attacks of opportunity on their strikes.

I'm just not sure what Elemental Blast as its own action is trying to solve. I don't think the Strikes are so powerful that they'd break Flurry of Blows or Haste? And if Paizo is worried about non-kineticists getting them easily, the multiclass archetype could just start with weaker versions of the blasts.

The AoO triggering does check out, which is not great.

The playtest does seem to be pre-guarded against this obvious combo... but this wouldn't be the first time 2 classes synergize well. I agree that the better choice is to accept that the Monk and Kineticist will be multi-class buddies, but keep the power level to a tolerable level.

Monk/Kineticist seems to be what a lot of people will want to do in some way anyhow, doesn't hurt for it to actually be good too.


So, a kineticist who wants to flurry would have to take Kinetic Weapon and Monastic Weaponry on top of the dedication and Flurry feats. That is a lot, but it is doable.


aobst128 wrote:
Still primed for poaching even if it's it's own action. I think it might be the thaumaturge's best ranged option on release, beating out the repeating hand crossbow with both fire and air blasts. Air in particular will match an adept wands 120 foot range. Perfect for snatching a cursed effigy with it's great range. Only takes up a hand which the thaumaturge is very efficient with.

The difference on the thaum is that that hand crossbow could be an implement. The summoned ball of air cannot.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
Still primed for poaching even if it's it's own action. I think it might be the thaumaturge's best ranged option on release, beating out the repeating hand crossbow with both fire and air blasts. Air in particular will match an adept wands 120 foot range. Perfect for snatching a cursed effigy with it's great range. Only takes up a hand which the thaumaturge is very efficient with.
The difference on the thaum is that that hand crossbow could be an implement. The summoned ball of air cannot.

True. Elemental weapon could solve that. Implements empowerment would apply I believe but maybe not exploit vulnerability.


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aobst128 wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:
The difference on the thaum is that that hand crossbow could be an implement. The summoned ball of air cannot.
True. Elemental weapon could solve that. Implements empowerment would apply I believe but maybe not exploit vulnerability.

No. You misunderstand. It goes further than that. If you wield a wand and a hand crossbow, then they can both be implements that you have carefully invested a degree of power in. You have access to two implement actions.

If you wield a wand and a thing that you formed out of elemental earth twelve seconds ago, then that thing is not the thing that you invested with Deep Thaumaturgical Meaning this morning. You are currently only hokding one implement.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:
The difference on the thaum is that that hand crossbow could be an implement. The summoned ball of air cannot.
True. Elemental weapon could solve that. Implements empowerment would apply I believe but maybe not exploit vulnerability.

No. You misunderstand. It goes further than that. If you wield a wand and a hand crossbow, then they can both be implements that you have carefully invested a degree of power in. You have access to two implement actions.

If you wield a wand and a thing that you formed out of elemental earth twelve seconds ago, then that thing is not the thing that you invested with Deep Thaumaturgical Meaning this morning. You are currently only hokding one implement.

One handed weapons don't need to be implements for a thaumaturge to make use of them. A elemental hand crossbow is perfectly ok as just that. With access to your ranged blasts without actually taking up the hand like it usually does, seems fine to me.


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I would prefer to never have to conclusively determine whether the elemental weapon is actually in your hand, or just something that requires your hand to control.

Since if I want to attack (in melee range) with my fire sword that I control with gestures without ever touching it, I should be able to describe my elemental blade as such.

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