two weapon fighting vs natual attacks

Rules Questions

can u use the two weapon fighting feat on natural attacks such as claws? like a lion?

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can u use the two weapon fighting feat on natural attacks such as claws? like a lion?

no, but 2 claws don't receive attack penalties anyway

primary naturall attacks (like most claws and bites) are all made at your highest bonus

a pc wants to use two weapon fighting feats with claws and bites?

natural attacks do not get extra attacks for high bab (at -5 to the attack) they only give one attack for each (unless were talking shifter which kinda changes stuff). the 2 weapon fighting rules and feats do not work here. you get one attack with each natural weapon at full bab (for primary attacks) and that is all, as long as you do not add normal weapon attacks as well.

if he has claws and a bite (or bites if he has more then one head, synth are known to do that) he doesn't need the two weapon fighting feat. as claws and a bite do not give any penalty and you can not use the hand that has a claw to make a claw attack and a weapon attack in the same full round action.

he can have 2 weapons in each hand and use them along with a bite (which changes the bite into secondary attack aka -5 to hit and half str for damage.). he can also attack with one weapon and one claw and a bite (which again changes the natural attacks into secondary even if they were primary) or he can make a full attack (without extra attacks at -5 bab) with the claws and the bite at full str damage to each without penalties.

There are two ways I know of to use two-weapon fighting where the off-hand is a claw. Flurry of blows from a chained menhir guardian monk, and catfolk's claw blades (change claws from natural attack to manufactured).

Otherwise the whole thing is a mess of "does natural attack count as being wielded in one hand?". Which in some situations, like spell combat, the answer is apparently yes.

he is a shifter using two weapon fighting

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see now. you should have started with that as shifter changes things somewhat.

"At level 6, a shifter gains the ability to make several ferocious attacks with the same natural weapon. Instead of attacking with all her natural weapons, the shifter can choose a single natural weapon and make a full attack with that natural weapon, gaining a second iterative attack at a –5 as if it was a manufactured weapon. When she does so, all her other natural attacks count as secondary attacks and don't benefit from shifter's claws. At 11th level, she gains a third iterative attack at a –10 and at 16th level, she gains a fourth iterative attack at –15."

basically that mean that from level 6+ one natural attack can be used as if it was a normal manufactured weapon.

this mean that from level 6 and above the shifter can use one natural weapon (not two. one claw not two claws) as if it was a a manufactured weapon. so she get to use her natural weapon damage along with getting extra attacks for high bab. BUT only one natural weapon can have that. if she wants to use two weapon fighting she needs a normal manufactured weapon in the other hand and while doing that every other natural weapon (such as a bite) count as a secondary).

so say at level 6 she has two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting and a bite attack she can:

- attack with two claws and a bite as normal for one attack each at +6 bab.
- attack with one claw as if it was not a natural weapon for +6/+1 attacks and with the other claw and bite at bab +6 (-5) at half str for damage.
- attack with one claw (or any normal weapon) and another manufactured weapon at +6/+6/+1/+1 with -2 for two weapon fighting and half str for off hand damage, unless she has double slice). and add a bite at +6 bab (-5. half str) if she wants.

what if he doesnt hav any off-hand weapons can he still use twf??

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what if he doesnt hav any off-hand weapons can he still use twf??

You pretty much always have off hand weapons (if nothing else pretty much everyone has an unarmed strike) it just might be a really terrible idea to use it because of other parts of the rules. Like someone without improved unarmed strike provoking an attack for doing so and not being able to cause lethal damage.

To follow up with my previous statement, assuming a character doesn't have more than one weapon that counts as a manufactured weapon (and one of a shifter's natural attacks do count as manufactured weapon) then you wouldn't be able to two weapon fight. Natural attacks and two weapon fighting don't mix.

However, as I mentioned you always have unarmed strikes that you could two weapon fight with, but it's going to be a very bad idea without improved unarmed strike. Even with it, the damage die will be poor. Better to fight with an actual weapon. But kind of ruins the point of using natural attacks in the first place.

Most natural attack focused characters are very specific builds to maximize the number of natural attacks (e.g. 2 claws, bite, gore, tail, etc) and to use all of them at once. I think I've seen builds that can get at least 6 natural attacks, and it's incredibly effective at mid to low levels, and stays competitive at higher levels.

can u use the two weapon fighting feat on natural attacks such as claws? like a lion?

First, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat is a passive feat, you don't use it. What you use is the TWF rule option, whose penalties the feat lowers (and only those penalties).

Second, while not explicitly spelled out because the CRB wasn't written with natural attacks in mind, the TWF rule option only works with manufactured weapons and unarmed strikes. Even if a GM would rule this not to be true, it would make absolutely no sense to use TWF with natural weapons, because with the 'main hand' not getting iterative attacks, and the penalties from TWF, even just two claw attacks would be better than Greater Two-Weapon Fighting with them.

Of course, with natural weapons, you don't need that rule options, as you can already attack with all natural weapons you have during the same full-attack action.

p.s.: It would really help if you would type more than a single sentence per post, you know? If you explain what the player is trying to do/accomplish, or give us some insight into their thought process, that greatly helps answering the actual/underlying question or clearing up a misconception.

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