Can Eidolons benefit from Elixirs?
I'm aware of the discrepancy between the Eidolon Trait telling us "an eidolon can't use items that don't have this trait" and the Eidolon Rules telling us "Your eidolon can't wear or use magic items". THIS thread and THIS thread showcase the potential for table variation there.
But, barring a conservative GM, if I want to give my Eidolon something like a Drakeheart Mutagen for a couple points of AC... That seems like it'll work?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
One important things to note is that Eidolons can't activate an item. So they can't use the Drakeheart Mutagen themselves, your Alchemist has to feed them with the Elixir.
Besides that, it's GM-dependent. Per strict RAW, it works as it's the character feeding the potion/elixir that activates it and as such the Eidolon doesn't technically use it. But you should expect table variation as benefiting from a potion/elixir can definitely be considered "using" an item.
One important things to note is that Eidolons can't activate an item.
Okay, good to know, that's exactly the sort of thing I thought I might be missing.
One important things to note is that Eidolons can't activate an item.Okay, good to know, that's exactly the sort of thing I thought I might be missing.
I'm not having luck finding this restriction. I've searched for both "activate" and "interact", and nothing comes up.
Was it part of the playtest that maybe got cut?
I'm also didn't find this. Maybe this cannot be a confusion with Animal Companions/Familiars?
But dispite that an Eidolon cannot use itens without Eidolon trait no matter if it's magical or not.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
FAQ it I say!
Just hit that FAQ button...
One important things to note is that Eidolons can't activate an item.Okay, good to know, that's exactly the sort of thing I thought I might be missing.I'm not having luck finding this restriction. I've searched for both "activate" and "interact", and nothing comes up.
Was it part of the playtest that maybe got cut?
Not sure exactly what want to find here. Its all fairly loose natural English.
Eidolons can't activate items because they can't use items
However in the consumable items rules here. From the text it seems reasonable to say that the target is not using the item, but the item is being used on them, or the effect of the item is being applied to them.
You can activate a potion with an Interact action as you drink it or feed it to another creature. You can feed a potion only to a creature that is within reach and willing or otherwise so helpless that it can’t resist. You usually need only one hand to consume a potion or feed it to another creature
FAQ it I say!
Just hit that FAQ button...
an Eidolon cannot use items without Eidolon trait no matter if it's magical or not.
Eidolons can't activate items because they can't use items
I addressed that in my first post. The rules contradict themselves, and there is ample table variation on whether the restriction is "all items" or just "magic items". Reading the threads I linked earlier, it does seem rather silly that an Eidolon comes with options to use tools, if there is an overriding ban on using all items.
Either way, I acknowledge the existence of table variation. My question assumes I encounter a GM that believes only magic items are restricted. In that case, I am asking whether or not there are any additional restrictions in using Elixirs (which aren't magical).
SuperBidi mentioned such an additional restriction, but I cannot find that explained anywhere.
an Eidolon cannot use items without Eidolon trait no matter if it's magical or not.Eidolons can't activate items because they can't use itemsI addressed that in my first post. The rules contradict themselves, and there is ample table variation on whether the restriction is "all items" or just "magic items". Reading the threads I linked earlier, it does seem rather silly that an Eidolon comes with options to use tools, if there is an overriding ban on using all items.
Either way, I acknowledge the existence of table variation. My question assumes I encounter a GM that believes only magic items are restricted. In that case, I am asking whether or not there are any additional restrictions in using Elixirs (which aren't magical).
SuperBidi mentioned such an additional restriction, but I cannot find that explained anywhere.
The thing is that the rules are quite badly written around Eidolons.
If your GM accepts that:- Eidolons use items (but not magical ones)
- Elixirs are not magical (they aren't, but they are also very similar to Potions).
=> Then Eidolons can activate Elixirs.
But in my opinion you are far away from the intention of the developers. Mark Seifter made it clear more than once that companions are not supposed to use items without the proper trait. I don't think he made that case for the Eidolon specifically, but to make it work you have to jump through a few hoops that suggest this is a fringe interpretation. I'd personally not allow it around my table even if I allow Eidolons to use (non-magical) items.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The rules contradict themselves
They don't though. The Eidolon trait trait does NOT contradict the "Gear and Your Eidolon". The Eidolon mentions items and Gear and Your Eidolon mentions magic items but magic items is a subset of items meaning that items includes it and the Gear and Your Eidolon mentioning magic items does not in any way preclude normal items from also being restricted. As such, not contradictory.
Now if you where to say confusing or misleading, you have a case for that.
Mark Seifter made it clear more than once that companions are not supposed to use items without the proper trait.
That was about minions though. Eidolon fit into its own category, not minion or summoned, and can do things they can't like take their own exploration activities. So while I'm inclined to agree it's likely all items, I don't think that Mark Seifter comment can prove it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The rules do not contradict themselves.
The scope of the rules in not clear at all. I don't see that having a 2nd party feed a Potion or an Elixir to an Eidolon counts as the Eidolon using an item for example because the 2nd party is activating it, though SuperBidi does.
Given that items can be interpreted very broadly, its not well defined.
Can an Eidolon carry a bucket? Or use a bucket? Or wear a backpack? Technically you can say with good justification that they can't.
But to me that is just an insane way to play. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.
So GMs are going to have to make some interpretations. Which means that the rules are unclear and a failure in this regard.
For me I allow an Eidolon to use and carry mundane items. I allow them to benefit from Potions and Elixirs activated for them. Any item without the Eidolon trait is left behind when they unmanifest.
There are a stack of other problems as well with Summoners but thats it for items.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The scope of the rules in not clear at all. I don't see that having a 2nd party feed a Potion or an Elixir to an Eidolon counts as the Eidolon using an item for example because the 2nd party is activating it, though SuperBidi does.
You have misundertood me: I don't allow the Eidolon to activate the Elixir by drinking it themselves, but I'm fine with the Eidolon beeing fed because there's nothing per RAW against that.
Anyone have links to these discussions with Mark? Even though he's no longer around. I didn't partake in the Playtest. But I appreciate having all available evidence when I'm making a case to my GMs.
Personally, I wouldn't allow feeding a potion to an Eidolon, because it's a magic item without the Eidolon trait. That, to me, feels like keeping with the spirit of the rules, and is solidly supported by them.
But I'd allow them to use Crowbars and open Treasure Chests and drink Elixirs, because not allowing them to do so breaks my verisimilitude ;-)
Feeding a potion to an eidolon breaks no RAW AFAIK.
Hard disagree. You might be feeding the Eidolon a potion, but it's the one "using" the benefits.
"Your eidolon can't wear or use magic items", after all. You can perform the physical act of feeding it to them. But nothing would happen.
Just one of the many possible interpretations, of course. Until there's an Errata or some new sourcebook to offer further insight, that's all anyone can do.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Feeding a potion to an eidolon breaks no RAW AFAIK.Hard disagree. You might be feeding the Eidolon a potion, but it's the one "using" the benefits.
"Your eidolon can't wear or use magic items", after all. You can perform the physical act of feeding it to them. But nothing would happen.
Just one of the many possible interpretations, of course. Until there's an Errata or some new sourcebook to offer further insight, that's all anyone can do.
Wielding Items
Source Core Rulebook pg. 272"Some abilities require you to wield an item, typically a weapon. You're wielding an item any time you're holding it in the number of hands needed to use it effectively. Using it means activating it: this is why you can feed someone else a potion because they aren't activating it [ie, using it].
Take a Drakeheart Mutagen [Usage held in 1 hand]: to use it, you need to use an interact action. When feeding it, the person you are feeding it to isn't using actions or hands to activate it: they aren't using it. You've have to argue that activating an elixir isn't using it but that's like saying that activating a wand to cast a spell on your eidolon isn't using it too.
"Activating Elixirs
Source Core Rulebook pg. 546 2.0
You usually Interact to activate an elixir as you drink it or feed it to another creature. You can feed an elixir only to a creature within reach that is either willing or unable to prevent you from doing so. You usually need only one hand to consume an elixir or feed it to another creature."
You can activate a potion with an Interact action as you drink it or feed it to another creature. You can feed a potion only to a creature that is within reach and willing or otherwise so helpless that it can’t resist. You usually need only one hand to consume a potion or feed it to another creature
Drink a potion or elixir counts as use due Consumable trait says "An item with this trait can be used only once.". So if you interpret that a potion/elixir it as being used instead of use you also may allow it to have unlimited uses because your are not using it! kkk
So drink a potion/elixir uses it so cannot be applied to Eidolon.
The rules contradict themselvesThey don't though. The Eidolon trait trait does NOT contradict the "Gear and Your Eidolon". The Eidolon mentions items and Gear and Your Eidolon mentions magic items but magic items is a subset of items meaning that items includes it and the Gear and Your Eidolon mentioning magic items does not in any way preclude normal items from also being restricted. As such, not contradictory.
Now if you where to say confusing or misleading, you have a case for that.
I agree with graystone the rules don't contradict. Even if "Gear And Your Eidolon" explicitly saying magic itens the whole section is about gear and invested itens this is not about other items like consumables these fall only in Eidolon trait section.
So in the end unless you are homebrew there's no raw allowing usage of any non Eidolon items in Eidolons.
Using items is activating them. Doesn't prevent eidolons or companions from benefitting from potions or elixirs if you administer them.
This sounds like an exploit! kkk
But not. You cannot active it before drink it.
A potion is a magical liquid activated when you drink it.
Similar situation for elixirs.
Elixirs are alchemical liquids that are used by drinking them.
So no matter how you try to exploit it. The Eidolon isn't allowed to use them.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you take the most severe interpretation then eidolons can't dig with a spade or use good number of their skills because they use tools.
Yup same goes with climbing a ladder/rope, but it's not only that, OHHH NO the rabbit hole on this interpretation goes SOOOOO much deeper.
If you extend the interpretation of "use" as meaning "be affected by" out beyond the mundane items but to also Magic Items then that means that Eidolons are suddenly rendered completely immune to any and all effects generated by Magic items such as a Ring of the Ram, Wands, Scrolls, and are also immune to all damage done by any Weapon that has so much as a +1 Potency or Striking Rune etched to it.
This interpretation is DOA in that it is not only SOO bad that is can't be true it is also soo GOOD that it can't reasonably be intended.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you take the most severe interpretation then eidolons can't dig with a spade or use good number of their skills because they use tools.
What skills can't be used without tools? Even Medicine can be used with Recall checks. Digging cab be done with hands, paws, claws, ect.
But not. You cannot active it before drink it.
Activation is the interact action used: when used by a creature, it's by drinking. When feed, it's that creatures interaction. This is noted under Activating Elixirs [Core Rulebook pg. 546] "You usually Interact to activate an elixir as you drink it or feed it to another creature." Just as with Gear And Your Eidolon" and the Eidolon trait not contradicting, so to is the drinking quote and the activating sections stating that they are used by drinking doesn't preclude that from also being used be feeding. Activating potions has a similar section: Core Rulebook pg. 562 "You can activate a potion with an Interact action as you drink it or feed it to another creature."
So by that logic, you also can't feed potions or elixirs to animal companions. Why wouldn't a cat or bear be able to benefit from a healing elixir? It's hardly an exploit.
Animal companion has an exception:
You might want to acquire items that benefit an animal or beast that assists you. These items have the companion trait, meaning they function only for animal companions, familiars, and similar creatures. Normally these are the only items a companion can use. Other items can qualify, at the GM's discretion, but an animal can never Activate an Item.
This may be obvious but that expression gives you a little away from homebrew. If your GM thinks it's reasonable he/she could allow you to use it. The main problem is with potions due they are activated no used. But once the elixirs can be allowed is reasonable to allow potions too but for other side the GM can say that due different anatomy the potion/elixir don't work correctly.
Similar excuse could be used for Eidolon. As they aren't a natural creature, instead they are a "ephemeral entity" linked to you magical "essence" and tradition. So as an excuse we can say that some items cannot work in they due their many singular characteristics.
That's not really a hard rule there. I honestly don't see the purpose behind that interpretation. Like obviously eidolons can't prepare or use staves for example. But surely you can cast spells on them with a staff yourself. I don't see how potions or elixirs are different. Eidolons count as creatures and targets for effects. They can benefit from items used on them as such.
I'm only creating a "in game excuse" to do some roleplay sense for the rule. But IMO the rules side are fair clear to me, even you are feeding another creature activating an item (you use your own action instead of the creature action) who still is drinking the elixir is the creature so is it's using it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I find it important that eidolons can push buttons and pull levers, flip switches, turn keys and generally interact in logical ways with objects in space.
Those aren't exactly skills pre se. They aren't even activations in most cases. For instance, opening a door ["Opening an unlocked door requires an Interact action"] that they can take. So too a lever can be used: it's only when activating an item that requires activation or wielding that they can't.
Does this make logical sense? No, but a LOT of the game doesn't: a 1/2ling can carry 3 other 1/2lings under their arms all day without any effort... Fireballs can explode in a library and no books catch on fire. You can't Strike an object! This really isn't a game to argue logic is the correct answer.
I don't see how potions or elixirs are different.
The difference is that potions are magic items; elixirs are not.
On the spectrum of interpretations, you have:
CONSERVATIVE
• no items at all, unless they have the Eidolon trait (too restrictive)
• non-magical items are okay, magic items need the Eidolon trait (middle ground)
• only worn magic items need to have the Eidolon trait (too exploitive)
LIBERAL
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was comparing potions and elixirs to staves not to each other.I don't see how potions or elixirs are different.The difference is that potions are magic items; elixirs are not.
On the spectrum of interpretations, you have:
CONSERVATIVE
• no items at all, unless they have the Eidolon trait (too restrictive)
• non-magical items are okay, magic items need the Eidolon trait (middle ground)
• only worn magic items need to have the Eidolon trait (too exploitive)
LIBERAL
Yep: an Eidolon getting a spell from a staff and an Eidolon getting an effect from a potion/elixir fed to them work the same way: the person with the item uses/activates the item. If they can't be fed a potion/elixir because it has to use it, so to is it immune to the spell from the staff.
But where you find that Eidolon can use a staff?
Anyway potions works different from spells from staff/wand/scrolls. The spells in these items have to be casted by someone able to use it and if spell allows select a target/area. Potions can be used by anyone (unless restricted by potion description) and only affects the drinker no matter what's the target description of the spell it was based. There are others restrictions like sickened that's don't allow someone to drink potions/elixirs.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But where you find that Eidolon can use a staff?
They can't. THAT'S the point. Someone using an item on you is different from using the item yourself.
Anyway potions works different from spells from staff/wand/scrolls.
Not really as far as someone feeding a target: you activate them and then an effect happens. For a potion that's an interact action from either the drinker or someone feeding the drinker. For an invested staff it's from the creature that activated it. BOTH can be activated by someone other than the target.
Potions can be used by anyone (unless restricted by potion description) and only affects the drinker no matter what's the target description of the spell it was based. There are others restrictions like sickened that's don't allow someone to drink potions/elixirs.
Sure, there are some differences but not any that matter for my point: both allow you to target someone else with an activated item and the target did nothing to activate/use the item. If an Eidolon can't be affected by a potion because they can't use it, the exact same logic also applies to the staff as neither one requires any activation or use from the Eidolon.
Edit: let me ask you this: what do you say about an Alchemical Atomizer? It holds a single elixir, oil, or potion that you can spray on the target and it gets the effect. Does removing the drinking option alter your opinion of a potion working with this?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
You can activate a potion with an Interact action as you drink it or feed it to another creature. You can feed a potion only to a creature that is within reach and willing or otherwise so helpless that it can’t resist. You usually need only one hand to consume a potion or feed it to another creatureDrink a potion or elixir counts as use due Consumable trait says "An item with this trait can be used only once.". So if you interpret that a potion/elixir it as being used instead of use you also may allow it to have unlimited uses because your are not using it! kkk
So drink a potion/elixir uses it so cannot be applied to Eidolon.
Your logic is just torturing natural English. Its quite valid to say the user of the potions is the one that pours it. Its also very clear that it is just one use, even if two actors are involved.
Yet the potion and elixir traits explicitly says "activated when you drink it" and "used by drinking them" entering in contradiction with the activate/use before drink concept. IMO this enforce the concept that they are activated in drinking action.
let me ask you this: what do you say about an Alchemical Atomizer? It holds a single elixir, oil, or potion that you can spray on the target and it gets the effect. Does removing the drinking option alter your opinion of a potion working with this?
The Alchemical Atomizer is rare lvl 10 equipment that exists exactly to circumvent these restrictions and give some safety for alchemist against AoO. It's a complicated equipment that requires more actions than just put a potion in someone mouth and make he/she drink.
And talking about Alchemical Atomizer I have a doubt about it. It's description says:
The atomizer can hold a single elixir, oil, or potion. An atomizer contains enough reagents to use it up to 10 times before the reagents must be replaced. A new batch of reagents costs 5 gp and requires an Interact action to replace.
So can you use the same elixir/oil/potion for 10 times until the reagents ends? Or is 1 use per item and after 10 uses you need to reload the atomizer just to it continue working?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Guys/Girls please try to understand that you are trying to use this rule as an exploit!
This rules allowing you to feed another creature is here to make possible to give someone a potion to a dying character. But when you use this to allow circumventing the eidolon restriction you are allowing things like this:
By default give item or status AC's bonus are very caped in the system. The bonus item is limited to 6 + runes. Allowing a total of 9 for any class.
The eidolons receive a item bonus that is not explicitly an armor depending on your Eidolon Array.
The Drakeheart Mutagen give item bonus to AC from +4 to +7 and +2 from DEX depending from item level except if your item bonus comes from an armor.
And to finish the "Gear and Your Eidolon" section says:
Your eidolon increases its item bonus to AC based on your armor's armor potency rune or braces of armor. It also gains an item bonus to its saves from the resilient rune on your armor or from your bracers of armor. Other permanent items that grant or increase item bonuses to AC and saves might convey a similar benefit, as determined by the GM.
So now we don't have any restriction to an Eidolon receives +12 in AC from item+dex+runes because the Eidolon receives a +7 item bonus to AC that does not come from an armor (the restriction from Drakeheart Mutagen that try to block such a thing ) and the rune transferred bonus are not restricted to wear the item due to the summoner transfer ability! Just because some one workarounded the restriction of an Eidolon not be allowed to use/activate items without Eidolon trait because it shoved an elixir down his throat in it!
Please think in the consequences before try to use RAW exploits. The Eidolon item restriction exists to avoid exploits, the feed potion rule exists to allow players to recover unconscious friends with potions if you try to use them from different situation you will open a door to begin break the system.
Totally agree.
Thanks for the discussion, everyone!
I was already planning on having this conversation with my Society GMs beforehand. Now I have a handy thread link I can just share with them in advance, and they can come to their own conclusions.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Guys/Girls please try to understand that you are trying to use this rule as an exploit!
I'm trying to exploit something the game explicitly allows? Verbal gymnastics to avoid what is clearly allowed doesn't do anything to fix it: just houserule it if you have an issue instead of trying to invent reasons it doesn't work.
Please think in the consequences before try to use RAW exploits.
But the consequences are meaningless in a debate on the legality of a set of rules. It's a COMPLETELY different debate if it's a good idea. In this case it's not an exploit but a completely allowed action for potions/elixirs. There is NO bending of the rules, no niche rules combinations or anything like this but a BASIC rule in how they work.
So now we don't have any restriction to an Eidolon receives +12 in AC from item+dex+runes because the Eidolon receives a +7 item bonus to AC that does not come from an armor (the restriction from Drakeheart Mutagen that try to block such a thing ) and the rune transferred bonus are not restricted to wear the item due to the summoner transfer ability! Just because some one workarounded the restriction of an Eidolon not be allowed to use/activate items without Eidolon trait because it shoved an elixir down his throat in it!
From a consumable? not seeing an issue.
exploitWhy are you trying to cancel quite clear general rule based on a presumable problem with one item?
It's no just one item. It's the first mutagem that came in my mind. It's virtually possible to combine any other elixir effect in unexpected way due the lack o Eidolon trait, this trait just exists to avoid these things.
How is Drakeheart an exploit? What you described is basically how it works. Why is it an exploit?
What do you even mean by 'except if your item bonus comes from an armor'? It gives an item bonus, which, as always, replaces armor's, if it's higher. Or, in the case of eidolon, mutagen's bonus replaces eidolon's.
Drakeheart doesn't normally stack with armor potency anyways right? Why would an eidolons item bonus to ac be any different? Even if it's ambiguous, it clearly should work just as it does for regular PCs.
No, the mutagen explicitly says "If you're wearing armor, you still calculate your proficiency bonus to AC based on your proficiency in the armor you're wearing, even if the drakeheart mutagen has a higher item bonus.". So the normal "is higher" don't apply here.
This was done just to try to avoid some unexpected AC iteration with armor runes.Even if there were some problem (which I don't see) with one item, the item should be fixed, not the general rule broken.
As I said before there are 2 rules contradicting each other but in practice they are in different contexts. One is in the traits saying that item activation is done when you drink the item, the other says that you can activate the item to feed someone. But it's easily to understand the context. This second rule exists to allow the use of drinkable itens in characters that are unable to act, while the first one to explain that you will use same interaction action that you use to drink to also activate the item. But this isn't an excuse to workaround other rule limitation like the Eidolon trait use item restriction.
Guys/Girls please try to understand that you are trying to use this rule as an exploit!I'm trying to exploit something the game explicitly allows? Verbal gymnastics to avoid what is clearly allowed doesn't do anything to fix it: just houserule it if you have an issue instead of trying to invent reasons it doesn't work.
Sorry Greystone but the game don't explicitly allows. It's a allowance due an implication that if the Eidolon rules aren't explicitly denying it then you can use. But this simply don't make sense disallow the eidolon to not drink by itself but allow any other char to do for it. This is more a thing that designers didn't saw than a explicitly allowed rule.
Please think in the consequences before try to use RAW exploits.But the consequences are meaningless in a debate on the legality of a set of rules. It's a COMPLETELY different debate if it's a good idea. In this case it's not an exploit but a completely allowed action for potions/elixirs. There is NO bending of the rules, no niche rules combinations or anything like this but a BASIC rule in how they work.
That's why the RAI context exist. No only to see how exactly the rules are written but also what they intended or trying to prevent.
So now we don't have any restriction to an Eidolon receives +12 in AC from item+dex+runes because the Eidolon receives a +7 item bonus to AC that does not come from an armor (the restriction from Drakeheart Mutagen that try to block such a thing ) and the rune transferred bonus are not restricted to wear the item due to the summoner transfer ability! Just because some one workarounded the restriction of an Eidolon not be allowed to use/activate items without Eidolon trait because it shoved an elixir down his throat in it!From a consumable? not seeing an issue.
Yes its a issue once this can be done using advanced alchemy also the GMG warn about this in "Potions vs. Elixirs":
Alchemical items and magic items follow a similar price economy based on their level, but the effects of potions can be a bit broader and more directly magical. Alchemists can also make extremely large numbers of elixirs at an item level equal to their alchemist level, so if a 17th level elixir was competing with a 9th level spell for power, an alchemist would be packing the equivalent of over 40 9th level spells, and potentially quickened spells thanks to the single action activation.
This warning is focuses in potion creation but easily applies to any unpredicted usage of alchemical items due how easily an inexpensive to an alchemist to do them daily.
So now we don't have any restriction to an Eidolon receives +12 in AC from item+dex+runes because the Eidolon receives a +7 item bonus to AC that does not come from an armor (the restriction from Drakeheart Mutagen that try to block such a thing ) and the rune transferred bonus are not restricted to wear the item due to the summoner transfer ability!Ok, at least I now see what you think is a problem. Even though eidolon's AC item bonus is not armor, runes from the PC increase it literally the same as for PC: they 'increase item AC bonus'. So you have new item bonus. And then, just the same as for a PC and as usual, Drakeheart replaces this item bonus with its own (or not, if it's lower). That's it, no problem, no exploit, no stacking Drakeheart with runes.
Yes this can be a solution but other mutagens can works in unexpected ways. For example it's a minor advantage but the Drakeheart Mutagen also give -1 for RK. But this simply doesn't affect the summoner who is the one that really do the RK test but this a really minor issue so don't make a real problem but it's an example of unxpected combination. So what others elixirs unexpected combinations can do with Eidolon?
That's why I'm defending that activate an item and make the Eidolon drink to workaround their restriction to drink works like an exploit. The Eidolon trait tried to avoid this but you found a strange rule combination to avoid it.