Spore War is coming - at long last, we get to beat up on Treerazer!
And it's going to stick! I wonder what's going to replace him as the big non-mythic threat.
Do we know what levels this will be for? Maybe Wardens of Wildwood would be a good lead in since they're both (maybe) focused on nature...
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I'm not sure "Spore War" is a good name for the adventure path featuring Treerazer. This name would be more fitting if the final boss were related to fungi or vermin, such as Cyth V'sug, Deskari, Jubilex, Mazmezz, or Yhidothrus. However, Treerazer, while known for his environmental destruction, resembles a dinosaur or dragon, not a fungus or vermin.
James, if First Edition mythic rules were much more successful, would this adventure path have been published in First Edition?
"Treerazer" is just a nickname, and we still don't know his real name. I really hope his real name is revealed in this adventure path, as it would be the perfect opportunity (and likely the last, since Treerazer will be killed in this adventure path and won't appear or be mentioned again).
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I'm not sure "Spore War" is a good name for the adventure path featuring Treerazer. This name would be more fitting if the final boss were related to fungi or vermin, such as Cyth V'sug, Deskari, Jubilex, Mazmezz, or Yhidothrus. However, Treerazer, while known for his environmental destruction, resembles a dinosaur or dragon, not a fungus or vermin.
James, if First Edition mythic rules were much more successful, would this adventure path have been published in First Edition?
"Treerazer" is just a nickname, and we still don't know his real name. I really hope his real name is revealed in this adventure path, as it would be the perfect opportunity (and likely the last, since Treerazer will be killed in this adventure path and won't appear or be mentioned again).
Spore War is a delightful name for this Adventure Path, because Tanglebriar, like its ruler Treerazer, has strong ties to fungi. This region is basically a mini-worldwound that's been infected by the Outer Rifts fungal realm of the demon lord Cyth-V'Sug, who is Treerazer's father/source. Treerazer himself is a demon associated with the slaughter of elves, the corruption of nature, and pollution, and a big way that those things happen is through the spread of supernatural fiendish fungal vectors and infections and elements.
This adventure path is not mythic, and that has nothing to do with those rules. Treerazer, as a capstone non-mythic foe, was always intended to be a standard Adventure Path "boss." The reason we didn't do this one earlier is because we didn't choose to do this one earlier, in part because it's one that's very close to my heart and I wanted to be the one to run it, and I don't run every Adventure Path, so I had to time it for the right moment.
Treerazer isn't his nickname. It's his name. Not every demon has a nonsense-word for a name.
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I'm not sure "Spore War" is a good name for the adventure path featuring Treerazer. This name would be more fitting if the final boss were related to fungi or vermin, such as Cyth V'sug, Deskari, Jubilex, Mazmezz, or Yhidothrus. However, Treerazer, while known for his environmental destruction, resembles a dinosaur or dragon, not a fungus or vermin.
James, if First Edition mythic rules were much more successful, would this adventure path have been published in First Edition?
"Treerazer" is just a nickname, and we still don't know his real name. I really hope his real name is revealed in this adventure path, as it would be the perfect opportunity (and likely the last, since Treerazer will be killed in this adventure path and won't appear or be mentioned again).
Spore War is a delightful name for this Adventure Path, because Tanglebriar, like its ruler Treerazer, has strong ties to fungi. This region is basically a mini-worldwound that's been infected by the Outer Rifts fungal realm of the demon lord Cyth-V'Sug, who is Treerazer's father/source. Treerazer himself is a demon associated with the slaughter of elves, the corruption of nature, and pollution, and a big way that those things happen is through the spread of supernatural fiendish fungal vectors and infections and elements.
This adventure path is not mythic, and that has nothing to do with those rules. Treerazer, as a capstone non-mythic foe, was always intended to be a standard Adventure Path "boss." The reason we didn't do this one earlier is because we didn't choose to do this one earlier, in part because it's one that's very close to my heart and I wanted to be the one to run it, and I don't run every Adventure Path, so I had to time it for the right moment.
Treerazer isn't his nickname. It's his name. Not every demon has a nonsense-word for a name.
Oh, it's fascinating that this one isn't Mythic - gives it the real epic campaign-topper feeling!
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Is that how the difference between a nacent demon lord and a full demon lord is going to be denoted in PF2E? I got the impression that statblocks weren't going above 25 but were going to have mythic stuff applied to replicate that increase, so that'd be a pretty handy way to differentiate between the two categories.
Correct. A full demon lord will be a mythic creature. Most of them will be level 25 I expect, but there might be some at level 24 or 23.
We won't have the levels of granularity that levels 26 through 30 represented in 1st edition. Things you saw in 1E that occupied that niche will now all be Mythic, and high level but not above 25. And mythic creatures will be VERY tough for non mythic creatures to defeat.
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I'm really frustrated because this adventure path is a three-book adventure path. I honestly think it has the potential to be a six-book adventure path. Sigh. I know recently Paizo makes three-book AP only, but this particular AP, where the PC face and kill the iconic monster of Paizo, should have been a full six-book AP! Not sure why Paizo made such a decision.
This is not a mythic adventure? Sigh. It seems I need to wait several more months to see a true mythic adventure path where the final boss is a level 30 demon lord, rather than just a nascent demon lord like Treerazer. I thought Treerazer is described as a non-mythic creature in Monster Core only because there were no mythic rules then, and since we will have mythic rules very soon, he will become a mythic creature in the upcoming Spore War adventure path!
James, can I assume that all demon-infested lands are blighted lands, as described on page 60 of Prisoners of the Blight? In these areas, the trees grow eyes, the skies are unnaturally dark, and it feels as if nature itself has become an enemy to all living things?
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I'm really frustrated because this adventure path is a three-book adventure path. I honestly think it has the potential to be a six-book adventure path. Sigh. I know recently Paizo makes three-book AP only, but this particular AP, where the PC face and kill the iconic monster of Paizo, should have been a full six-book AP! Not sure why Paizo made such a decision.
Putting out twice the number of APs over the same period of time permits serving up to twice the market without needing to staff up. Keeping employee overhead as low as possible is key to Paizo's business model.
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I'm really frustrated because this adventure path is a three-book adventure path. I honestly think it has the potential to be a six-book adventure path. Sigh. I know recently Paizo makes three-book AP only, but this particular AP, where the PC face and kill the iconic monster of Paizo, should have been a full six-book AP! Not sure why Paizo made such a decision.
This is not a mythic adventure? Sigh. It seems I need to wait several more months to see a true mythic adventure path where the final boss is a level 30 demon lord, rather than just a nascent demon lord like Treerazer. I thought Treerazer is described as a non-mythic creature in Monster Core only because there were no mythic rules then, and since we will have mythic rules very soon, he will become a mythic creature in the upcoming Spore War adventure path!
James, can I assume that all demon-infested lands are blighted lands, as described on page 60 of Prisoners of the Blight? In these areas, the trees grow eyes, the skies are unnaturally dark, and it feels as if nature itself has become an enemy to all living things?
As James said directly above your post, there are no "Level 30" Demon Lords. They will be Level 25 with Mythic as opposed to Treerazer who is Level 25 without Mythic.
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I'm really frustrated because this adventure path is a three-book adventure path. I honestly think it has the potential to be a six-book adventure path. Sigh. I know recently Paizo makes three-book AP only, but this particular AP, where the PC face and kill the iconic monster of Paizo, should have been a full six-book AP! Not sure why Paizo made such a decision.
I get it, and understand the fact that some folks miss the 6 part Adventure Paths. If more folks out there were as passionate for these that they bought all six parts consistently and played them and left reviews for them and gave Paizo the impression that this format for an Adventure Path was more financially viable and responsible, that would have helped potentially keeping 6 part Adventure Paths around. It wouldn't have GUARANTEED it, because it's also less complicated and more efficient for us at Paizo to create shorter Adventure Paths, because it gives folks (particularly the developers) more opportunities to catch their breath, switch creative gears, and spend more time pouring that creative energy into something half the size. As possibly the person who's worked on 6 part Adventure Paths more than anyone else in the industry, I can confirm that doing them non-stop is a grind that wears you down and exhausts you. Doing 3 part ones is a healthier model over the long term, and Paizo wants to keep its employees healthy and happy. Three part Adventure Paths as the norm is one of the many ways we do that; not only by having less grind and overtime and all that to get a giant monthly project done so we can jump into the next one immediately, but because they appear to have stronger sales and thus that profitability helps us to keep salaries and wages for employees and freelancers alike up. Never say never! We will likely do another 6 parter some day, but the time and plot has to be the right time and the right plot, and doing them less frequently lets us tackle them far enough in advance so that we can more responsibly cover the time needed to make them happen.
This is not a mythic adventure? Sigh. It seems I need to wait several more months to see a true mythic adventure path where the final boss is a level 30 demon lord, rather than just a nascent demon lord like Treerazer. I thought Treerazer is described as a non-mythic creature in Monster Core only because there were no mythic rules then, and since we will have mythic rules very soon, he will become a mythic creature in the upcoming Spore War adventure path!
When "War of Immortals" is out, folks will see how mythic rules function in 2nd edition, and hopefully the idea of running a non-mythic adventure for mythic PCs will be something that'll be a lot easier for GMs to do. The time it takes to create an Adventure Path makes it impossible for us to responsibly do this sort of thing day and date, though—"Wrath of the Righteous" proved that to me. I assigned folks to start writing "Spore War" over six months ago, at which point no one outside of the design team had a good grasp of where mythic rules for PCs were going, so we simply couldn't incorperate that into Spore War. One option would have been to push Spore War back to later in 2025... but know what? The Adventure Path I was originally outlining for early 2025 IS a mythic one, and IT got pushed back to later so that we could make it work right. Had to put something into that slot that could work to carry forward narrative themes from War of Immortals (the non-mythic Godsrain story stuff with war and conflict spreading), and Spore War covered that perfectly... and had the advantage of being a story that I already had put a LOT of thought into (starting back in 1989, when I first created Treerazer and Tanglebriar), so it was a much easier Adventure Path for me to outline and assign in a very tight time frame. I do have access to the mythic rules now, and I'm about to start development of the 3rd adventure in Spore War, so there might be some mythic content showing up in there to help power up the PCs a bit more to face Treerazer, but it will be in the form of things other than assuming the PCs all have mythic destinies. You'll have to wait until next year when Spore War is coming out to see more; sorry.
James, can I assume that all demon-infested lands are blighted lands, as described on page 60 of Prisoners of the Blight? In these areas, the trees grow eyes, the skies are unnaturally dark, and it feels as if nature itself has become an enemy to all living things?
Nope. Blighted lands can be blighted by all sorts of things. Demonic influence is responsbile for a fair amount, including the Worldwound, Tanlgebriar, and the blight in Prisoners of the Blight. It's NOT responsible for the irradiated blighted lands of Numeria, or the magically wracked lands of the Mana Wastes, or the smaller scale areas of corruption spread by blights (the evil oozes we introduced in Bestiary 6), or the influence that spreads through the Stolen Lands at the end of Kingmaker, or the shadow-plagued reaches of Uskwood, to call out a few examples.
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Also... I'm always happy to give more clarity to folks who have concerns and questions. Please remember that not everyone (myself certainly included) is able to or interested in watching every spot online for potential news drops or explanations, and not everyone takes part in Paizocon or other conventions where these explanations take place.
Also please remember that some folks are really invested and passionate about the content we create, and it's okay for them to be frustrated and disappointed or sad when things change. When and where I can, I try to give context to the reasons for those changes, and in some cases the frustrations folks have are simply misunderstandings that I can clear up or anticipations that will be rewarded at a later date or simply things where we at Paizo could have managed expectations better.
It's fine to point out to folks where they can go to get answers for questions elsewhere that they might not realize have been answered on, say, reddit or a Paizocon discord room or a blog or a different thread here on the forums, but please don't shame folks for asking questions about things they're curious about.
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And putting this bit in its own post because it's an important metric that folks outside of Paizo might not realize.
It takes more time to create a month of Pathfinder Adventure Path than a month.
The longer an Adventure Path, the more lead time we need to create it, and that means the longer a developer is not able to work on other Adventure Paths.
Right now, I'm creating the outline for a 3 part Adventure Path that will not release until October of 2025... and I'm actually over a month LATE getting that outline done (as a result of the OGL crisis making a mess of the overall schedule in lots of ways). The good news there is that for the NEXT Adventure Path outline I create we'll be out of the "rain shadow" of the OGL/Remaster stuff, and barring some new complication, I should be able to do that one on time.
But yeah. Work starts on a 3 part Adventure Path a year and a half before they come out. For a 6 part one, following our new more responsible and realistic scheduling, that'd push out to over two years out and would take that developer out of the cycle for other projects even longer.
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I'm really frustrated because this adventure path is a three-book adventure path. I honestly think it has the potential to be a six-book adventure path. Sigh. I know recently Paizo makes three-book AP only, but this particular AP, where the PC face and kill the iconic monster of Paizo, should have been a full six-book AP! Not sure why Paizo made such a decision.I get it, and understand the fact that some folks miss the 6 part Adventure Paths. If more folks out there were as passionate for these that they bought all six parts consistently and played them and left reviews for them and gave Paizo the impression that this format for an Adventure Path was more financially viable and responsible, that would have helped potentially keeping 6 part Adventure Paths around. It wouldn't have GUARANTEED it, because it's also less complicated and more efficient for us at Paizo to create shorter Adventure Paths, because it gives folks (particularly the developers) more opportunities to catch their breath, switch creative gears, and spend more time pouring that creative energy into something half the size.
This is interesting and worth remember for those of us that really enjoy the 6 parters. At the same time, is it possible that the declining excitement for almost all of the 6 part PF2 APs could have been related to lack of thematic resonance? Like there really has only been 1 more traditional fantasy 6 part AP published, and it was the very first one, so suffered in the same way rushing a mythic AP would have. I am willing to bet that a more traditional fantasy 6 part AP is going to do very well for Paizo when you all do get around to publish it. Maybe even more so because folks will have been waiting so long for it.
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I look forward to the next 6 part AP, since I'm confident they're going to reserve that for "a really significant story".
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Dont suppose the Ap after this one was announced or is that more of a Gencon time kind of announcement?
We have 4 Adventure Paths a year to announce these days, and we prefer to spread them out. My guess is that the one after Spore War will be announced at Gen Con, but I can't guarantee that... we DO like giving each of them individual time in the spotlight if we can and not to compete with each other for attention.
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This is interesting and worth remember for those of us that really enjoy the 6 parters. At the same time, is it possible that the declining excitement for almost all of the 6 part PF2 APs could have been related to lack of thematic resonance? Like there really has only been 1 more traditional fantasy 6 part AP published, and it was the very first one, so suffered in the same way rushing a mythic AP would have. I am willing to bet that a more traditional fantasy 6 part AP is going to do very well for Paizo when you all do get around to publish it. Maybe even more so because folks will have been waiting so long for it.
Six part Adventure Paths have always had a tough time keeping up the pace, and that makes sense, since folks buy the first ones and then some folks, for whatever reason, lose interest or whatever and don't buy the last ones. That's been the way it's been from day one. We kept up the 6 part ones a lot longer than we probably should have, in other words, from a strictly financial view of things. First parts are almost always going to do better... that goes for most forms of serialized entertainment, not just Adventure Paths.
Not that 6 part ones were doing AWFUL. They were doing well enough for us to keep going, but the 3 part ones, with twice as many "on ramps" and half the commitment required to play AND to produce makes things more responsible from a financial viewpoint, a workflow viewpoint, an employee health viewpoint, and from a customer engagement viewpoint.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, we'll be trying harder to make more high-level ones with stronger ties so that those groups who DO want to do campaings that go all the way to 20 will have more options going forward. For example, we've got Curtain Call coming very soon which is a great continuation for any 1st to 10th level game, and we'll have one coming later in 2025 (if all goes according to plan) that will be an excellent continuation to Seven Dooms for Sandpoint.
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As I've mentioned elsewhere, we'll be trying harder to make more high-level ones with stronger ties so that those groups who DO want to do campaings that go all the way to 20 will have more options going forward. For example, we've got Curtain Call coming very soon which is a great continuation for any 1st to 10th level game, and we'll have one coming later in 2025 (if all goes according to plan) that will be an excellent continuation to Seven Dooms for Sandpoint.
Is the Seven Dooms sequel the AP you're working on for October 2025?
Really hope Quest for the Frozen Flame gets a higher tier sequel :)
It and the Alkenstar path are probably the hardest to thematically jump from into any higher tiered path so far.
Unless the Broken Tusk decides to take a loong excursion into Ravounel…
That could be fun
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As possibly the person who's worked on 6 part Adventure Paths more than anyone else in the industry, I can confirm that doing them non-stop is a grind that wears you down and exhausts you. Doing 3 part ones is a healthier model over the long term, and Paizo wants to keep its employees healthy and happy. Three part Adventure Paths as the norm is one of the many ways we do that; not only by having less grind and overtime and all that to get a giant monthly project done so we can jump into the next one immediately, but because they appear to have stronger sales and thus that profitability helps us to keep salaries and wages for employees and freelancers alike up.
Out of curiosity, and bearing in mind 1) that the answer may be confidential (in which case, I completely understand why you wouldn't divulge it) and 2) that you are management, was moving to three-part APs among the demands of the staff union?
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As I've mentioned elsewhere, we'll be trying harder to make more high-level ones with stronger ties so that those groups who DO want to do campaings that go all the way to 20 will have more options going forward. For example, we've got Curtain Call coming very soon which is a great continuation for any 1st to 10th level game, and we'll have one coming later in 2025 (if all goes according to plan) that will be an excellent continuation to Seven Dooms for Sandpoint.Is the Seven Dooms sequel the AP you're working on for October 2025?
I've already SAID TOO MUCH! Just hang on to those Seven Dooms PCs as they exist after you finish. If you're cool with branching timelines, you could even play those out in a different game and then reset back to 12th level when REDACTED Adventure Path is out.
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As possibly the person who's worked on 6 part Adventure Paths more than anyone else in the industry, I can confirm that doing them non-stop is a grind that wears you down and exhausts you. Doing 3 part ones is a healthier model over the long term, and Paizo wants to keep its employees healthy and happy. Three part Adventure Paths as the norm is one of the many ways we do that; not only by having less grind and overtime and all that to get a giant monthly project done so we can jump into the next one immediately, but because they appear to have stronger sales and thus that profitability helps us to keep salaries and wages for employees and freelancers alike up.Out of curiosity, and bearing in mind 1) that the answer may be confidential (in which case, I completely understand why you wouldn't divulge it) and 2) that you are management, was moving to three-part APs among the demands of the staff union?
Not specifically, but it's one of many positive changes and adjustments that have been made at Paizo (for both the unionized staff and for non-uninoized staff) that are helping to make the company healthier and its employees treated and compensated better. As far as I know (as a member of the union) there was never a demand to "only do 3 part Adventure Paths" on any dockets.
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Not specifically, but it's one of many positive changes and adjustments that have been made at Paizo (for both the unionized staff and for non-uninoized staff) that are helping to make the company healthier and its employees treated and compensated better. As far as I know (as a member of the union) there was never a demand to "only do 3 part Adventure Paths" on any dockets.As possibly the person who's worked on 6 part Adventure Paths more than anyone else in the industry, I can confirm that doing them non-stop is a grind that wears you down and exhausts you. Doing 3 part ones is a healthier model over the long term, and Paizo wants to keep its employees healthy and happy. Three part Adventure Paths as the norm is one of the many ways we do that; not only by having less grind and overtime and all that to get a giant monthly project done so we can jump into the next one immediately, but because they appear to have stronger sales and thus that profitability helps us to keep salaries and wages for employees and freelancers alike up.Out of curiosity, and bearing in mind 1) that the answer may be confidential (in which case, I completely understand why you wouldn't divulge it) and 2) that you are management, was moving to three-part APs among the demands of the staff union?
Bother. If it had been an initiative by the workers or their representatives, I'd have expressed full-throated support without a second thought and probably gone back to buying the things outside of Curtain Call (which is already on my to-buy list for feeds-my-obsession reasons). Was the decision bargained over as affecting terms and conditions, or was it imposed as a management prerogative (however welcome)?
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Bother. If it had been an initiative by the workers or their representatives, I'd have expressed full-throated support without a second thought and probably gone back to buying the things outside of Curtain Call (which is already on my to-buy list for feeds-my-obsession reasons). Was the decision bargained over as affecting terms and conditions, or was it imposed as a management prerogative (however welcome)?
Are you talking about the decision to switch mostly to 3 part Adventure Paths? That's something we've been looking at for years, both with Pathfinder and with Starfinder. The first 3-parter we did for Pathfinder was Abomination Vaults, the first part of which was published in 2021, but which (as with all Pathifnder Adventure Paths) started work a year or so before that. This isn't a last-minute decision we made, but an informed one that we made after looking at years of feedback and results on both the Pathfinder side and the Starfinder side. This is a decision we started considering as a company before the union came about, but that after the union happened became apparent as a great choice to make Paizo a better place to work.
It was an initiative by the workers and by management, in other words. Again, I'm not part of the management side, but am part of the union, and I'm pretty happy with the decision we've arrived at for doing 3 part Adventure Paths from a creative stance and from a work/life balance and personal mental health stance.
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I've already SAID TOO MUCH! Just hang on to those Seven Dooms PCs as they exist after you finish. If you're cool with branching timelines, you could even play those out in a different game and then reset back to 12th level when REDACTED Adventure Path is out.As I've mentioned elsewhere, we'll be trying harder to make more high-level ones with stronger ties so that those groups who DO want to do campaings that go all the way to 20 will have more options going forward. For example, we've got Curtain Call coming very soon which is a great continuation for any 1st to 10th level game, and we'll have one coming later in 2025 (if all goes according to plan) that will be an excellent continuation to Seven Dooms for Sandpoint.Is the Seven Dooms sequel the AP you're working on for October 2025?
Mirage of the Peacock AP.
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Spore War is coming - at long last, we get to beat up on Treerazer!FWIW I keep on reading Sport War.
Sport Wort is coming later, that's the 1-10 AP about keeping the fans of Golarion's premier sporting event supplied with fermented beverages throughout the games.
Sport Wort is coming later, that's the 1-10 AP about keeping the fans of Golarion's premier sporting event supplied with fermented beverages throughout the games.Spore War is coming - at long last, we get to beat up on Treerazer!FWIW I keep on reading Sport War.
This sounds like a Free RPG Day scenario. Kind of love it.