Checking to make sure I am not missing something.
For characters that only have Negative Healing but are otherwise still living (such as Dhampir heritage or Revenant background), you still use Treat Wounds on them. Stitch Flesh is only needed for characters that are fully undead like Skeleton ancestry, or Vampire archetype. Or Ghost archetype somehow...
Yes?
That is my understanding as well.
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"When did healers' kits start carrying vials of ectoplasm?!"
-surprised Pharasman healer
I thought it was positive energy, and not the healing trait, that couldn't be used to heal undead.
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Two separate things, not an either/or situation.
1. Undead have negative healing and positive effects will not help them.
2. Undead have immunity to things with the Healing trait. This is in the Undead trait.
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I thought it was positive energy, and not the healing trait, that couldn't be used to heal undead.
Undead (trait)
Once living, these creatures were infused after death with negative energy and soul-corrupting evil magic. When reduced to 0 Hit Points, an undead creature is destroyed. Undead creatures are damaged by positive energy, are healed by negative energy, and don't benefit from healing effects.
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The rules specifically call out a PC undead working differently from the standard...
Where?
I wonder how much trouble it would truly cause if the healing immunity from the undead trait was removed. A lot of conventional healing would still remain gated from undead either through the positive trait or the very nature of most of them specifying living targets. For instance, Stitch Flesh would still be a relevant feat since you can only Treat Wounds on the living in the first place, with or without the healing trait.
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Two separate things, not an either/or situation.
1. Undead have negative healing and positive effects will not help them.
2. Undead have immunity to things with the Healing trait. This is in the Undead trait.
Correct but also please note that the exisiting PCs options like Dhampir just have Negative Healing, and the new options like Skeleton and Undead Companions have Negative Healing and Basic Undead Benefits. None of these actually have the full Undead trait.
Which means they call still be healed by Battle Medicine because that is just Healing, not Positive Healing.
So on these PC options for not full undead Elixir of life works - its not positive,
Healing Potion does not as its positive,
Healers Gloves assist mecincine checks and do help, but they have a power that is positive healing and that part wouldn't work.
It sort of makes sense that you can stitch up undead bodies effectively, just not use magical positive healing on them
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I believe PC undead can benefit from Battle Medicine at least. The rules specifically call out a PC undead working differently from the standard, and only call out Positive Healing effects as no longer being applicable.
I see a couple of problems with this argument.
Healing Undead
Because of negative healing many typical means of healing don’t work on undead. The heal spell can’t heal undead, but harm and soothe can. Healing potions and elixirs of life are no use, but an oil of unlife can heal undead. In addition, a character can take the Stitch Flesh skill feat to heal undead with Treat Wounds
1.) Elixir of Life has the Healing trait, but not the Positive trait. If undead were only immune to healing effects with the Positive trait then Elixir of Life should work. It doesn't.
2.) If you don't need Stitch Flesh to use Treat Wounds on undead, then what do you need it for?
1.) Elixir of Life has the Healing trait, but not the Positive trait. If undead were only immune to healing effects with the Positive trait then Elixir of Life should work. It doesn't.
To be fair, Elixir of Life specifies living creatures so even if Undead weren’t immune to Healing effects, it still would not work on them..
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1.) Elixir of Life has the Healing trait, but not the Positive trait. If undead were only immune to healing effects with the Positive trait then Elixir of Life should work. It doesn't.To be fair, Elixir of Life specifies living creatures so even if Undead weren’t immune to Healing effects, it still would not work on them..
I had missed that. But now I see that Treat Wounds has the same restriction.
Treat Wounds
...
You spend 10 minutes treating one injured living creature (targeting yourself, if you so choose).
So if that, rather than the Healing trait, is the reason for disallowing Elixir of Life, then Treat Wounds (without Stitch Flesh) should also be disallowed.
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But I also now realize that Battle Medicine actually doesn't use Treat Wounds and also doesn't specify living creatures. So I'm reconsidering my objections. It seem weird that Battle Medicine would work on undead PCs while Treat Wounds wouldn't, but the wording of the rules might support that.
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Ok, So factoring in these living creature targeting restrictions and the Undead trait also restricting Healing. Then the negative healing characters become very hard to play.
Its looking like Battle Medicine, but not Treat Wounds, plus actual negative spells like Harm work.
It looks like the Stitch Flesh feat to enable Treat Wounds is going to be required if there are undead to heal.
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New text seems to suggest that Undead PCs function slightly different than undead NPCs.
Basic Undead Benefits
(Book of the Dead pg. 44)
Negative Healing: You are damaged by positive damage and aren't healed by positive healing effects. You don't take negative damage and are healed by negative effects that heal undead.
Negative Survival: Unlike normal undead, you aren't destroyed when reduced to 0 Hit Points. Instead, powerful negative energy attempts to keep you from being destroyed even in dire straits. You are knocked out and begin dying when reduced to 0 Hit Points. Because you're undead, many methods of bringing someone back from dying, such as stabilize, don't benefit you. When you would die, you're destroyed rather than dead, just like other undead.
(italics mine)
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1.) Elixir of Life has the Healing trait, but not the Positive trait. If undead were only immune to healing effects with the Positive trait then Elixir of Life should work. It doesn't.To be fair, Elixir of Life specifies living creatures so even if Undead weren’t immune to Healing effects, it still would not work on them..I had missed that. But now I see that Treat Wounds has the same restriction.
Treat Wounds
...
You spend 10 minutes treating one injured living creature (targeting yourself, if you so choose).So if that, rather than the Healing trait, is the reason for disallowing Elixir of Life, then Treat Wounds (without Stitch Flesh) should also be disallowed.
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But I also now realize that Battle Medicine actually doesn't use Treat Wounds and also doesn't specify living creatures. So I'm reconsidering my objections. It seem weird that Battle Medicine would work on undead PCs while Treat Wounds wouldn't, but the wording of the rules might support that.
Note that Stitch Flesh does not interact with Battle Medicine for this very reason : it is not Treat Wounds.
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I wish they would just remove the "healing effects" restriction from the Undead trait, because with it in place Undead PCs can not benefit from spells like Remove Curse.
Well this is the thing and the cause of my earlier confusion. I read the text for these new PC undead option and it really did seem like Basic Undead Benefits was modifying the default Undead abilities.
It does say These are somewhat different from the normal undead creature abilities to better fit player characters which does imply it is modifying ie replacing the typical undead trait.
Given that it goes on to say Negative Healing: You are damaged by positive damage and aren't healed by positive healing effects. You don't take negative damage and are healed by negative effects that heal undead.
So is this a case of specific overriding the general rule? Maybe it is. Then I have to back track again to my original position.
Sigh confusing Paizo, thanks.
I wish they would just remove the "healing effects" restriction from the Undead trait, because with it in place Undead PCs can not benefit from spells like Remove Curse.
Thinking it over, I’m sure it clarifies more than it complicates the persistent confusion on healing undead. Without the healing effect restriction, we only have to look out for the positive trait and if said effect targets undead or living creatures. For me, that’s a lot easier to remember.
It wouldn’t even demand a change in the new “Healing Undead” sidebar at all. In fact, it brings Soothe in line one step closer it, requiring only it’s targeting changed.
It's not overriding anything, the negative healing entry is word for word the same as the one in the Bestiary, merely replacing "it" with "you".I wish they would just remove the "healing effects" restriction from the Undead trait, because with it in place Undead PCs can not benefit from spells like Remove Curse.Well this is the thing and the cause of my earlier confusion. I read the text for these new PC undead option and it really did seem like Basic Undead Benefits was modifying the default Undead abilities.
It does say These are somewhat different from the normal undead creature abilities to better fit player characters which does imply it is modifying ie replacing the typical undead trait.
Given that it goes on to say Negative Healing: You are damaged by positive damage and aren't healed by positive healing effects. You don't take negative damage and are healed by negative effects that heal undead.So is this a case of specific overriding the general rule? Maybe it is. Then I have to back track again to my original position.
Sigh confusing Paizo, thanks.
That is not what has changed.
The Undead Trait listed in both Core Rulebook pg. 637 2.0, and Bestiary p347 both stop healing whereas the Basic Undead Benefits Book of the Dead pg. 44, which says its modifying the Undead rules, just stops positive healingThat difference enables Treat Wounds and Battle Medicine plus a witch (Life Boost) focus healing ability. IE everything that is Healing but not Positive Healing.
It also means Stitch Flesh is less relevant.You only need it with real undead.
Note that Stitch Flesh does not interact with Battle Medicine for this very reason : it is not Treat Wounds.1.) Elixir of Life has the Healing trait, but not the Positive trait. If undead were only immune to healing effects with the Positive trait then Elixir of Life should work. It doesn't.To be fair, Elixir of Life specifies living creatures so even if Undead weren’t immune to Healing effects, it still would not work on them..I had missed that. But now I see that Treat Wounds has the same restriction.
Treat Wounds
...
You spend 10 minutes treating one injured living creature (targeting yourself, if you so choose).So if that, rather than the Healing trait, is the reason for disallowing Elixir of Life, then Treat Wounds (without Stitch Flesh) should also be disallowed.
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But I also now realize that Battle Medicine actually doesn't use Treat Wounds and also doesn't specify living creatures. So I'm reconsidering my objections. It seem weird that Battle Medicine would work on undead PCs while Treat Wounds wouldn't, but the wording of the rules might support that.
Yeah. Somehow I had it stuck in my brain that Battle Medicine just let you use Treat Wounds faster.
It's probably because Battle Medicine says it uses the same DC as Treat Wounds, and I absorbed that fact when I was first trying to understand how the PF2 rules system worked.
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It also means Stitch Flesh is less relevant.You only need it with real undead.
You still need Stitch Flesh to Treat Wounds any undead since it still only targets living creatures by default. Everything else that doesn’t exclusively target the living checks out.
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If Basic Undead Benefits were meant to replace the Undead trait, it would say so. Instead it says that "These are somewhat different from the normal undead creature abilities to better fit player characters." If they wanted them to replace the trait's rules, it should have said something like "Apply these rules to Undead PCs instead of the rules from the Undead trait (though you still have that trait for the purpose of spells and abilities that require it)"
The only thing the Benefits explicitly modify from the Undead trait is what happens when you reach 0 HP. Negative Healing was already granted by the Undead trait, so it's superfluous to have it in the Benefits. Furthermore, there are no rules anywhere stating that all Undead are immune to disease, paralysis, poison, and sleep, yet the Benefits seem to suggest there are. the Immunity to Death effects and the Undead Hunger are just added on top of everything.
The simplest fix would be to simply remove the line about not benefiting from healing effects. This would allow all undead to benefit from Remove Curse (and all the other Remove spells), as well as a bunch of non-positive healing options. Soothe should also be changed to "1 willing creature", as it would allow it to target undead creatures properly, while still excluding Constructs due to their much more explicit immunity to the Healing trait (straight up immunity to it, rather than "not benefiting" from it).
Both these fixes in conjunction will make Undead way easier for everyone to play, and we can stop arguing about what the rules actually mean with the least amount of changes to said rules.
If Basic Undead Benefits were meant to replace the Undead trait, it would say so. Instead it says that "These are somewhat different from the normal undead creature abilities to better fit player characters."
Really?!!!?
What does somewhat different mean if not to indicate it is changing the normal rules?
It explicitly has a new entry for negative healing.
There is nothing to fix. The rules are clear consistent and workable, just a bit complex.
It also means Stitch Flesh is less relevant.You only need it with real undead.You still need Stitch Flesh to Treat Wounds any undead since it still only targets living creatures by default. Everything else that doesn’t exclusively target the living checks out.
So the gap is Life Boost and Battle Medicine which also doesn't have the living creature targeting problem.
The Undead trait is entirely separate from negative healing. All undead get both. The basic undead benefits version is identical to the Bestiary.It's not overriding anything, the negative healing entry is word for word the same as the one in the Bestiary, merely replacing "it" with "you".I wish they would just remove the "healing effects" restriction from the Undead trait, because with it in place Undead PCs can not benefit from spells like Remove Curse.Well this is the thing and the cause of my earlier confusion. I read the text for these new PC undead option and it really did seem like Basic Undead Benefits was modifying the default Undead abilities.
It does say These are somewhat different from the normal undead creature abilities to better fit player characters which does imply it is modifying ie replacing the typical undead trait.
Given that it goes on to say Negative Healing: You are damaged by positive damage and aren't healed by positive healing effects. You don't take negative damage and are healed by negative effects that heal undead.So is this a case of specific overriding the general rule? Maybe it is. Then I have to back track again to my original position.
Sigh confusing Paizo, thanks.
That is not what has changed.
The Undead Trait listed in both Core Rulebook pg. 637 2.0, and Bestiary p347 both stop healing whereas the Basic Undead Benefits Book of the Dead pg. 44, which says its modifying the Undead rules, just stops positive healing
That difference enables Treat Wounds and Battle Medicine plus a witch (Life Boost) focus healing ability. IE everything that is Healing but not Positive Healing.
It also means Stitch Flesh is less relevant.You only need it with real undead.
BUB says it is modifying the normal undead rules.
Because Negative Healing is restated in Basic Undead Benefits, it now has priority over the Undead properties. Rather than Undead trait modifying Negative Healing by leaving out the word positive. It essentially calls out Negative Healing as the more specific rule. Giving it priority over the trait.
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If Basic Undead Benefits were meant to replace the Undead trait, it would say so.
If Basic Undead Benefits were not meant to replace specifics of the Undead trait, they would have simply not printed anything that was shared common between them.
So anything that they reprinted with modifications or changes - no matter how slight - should be considered an override.
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If Basic Undead Benefits were meant to replace the Undead trait, it would say so.If Basic Undead Benefits were not meant to replace specifics of the Undead trait, they would have simply not printed anything that was shared common between them.
So anything that they reprinted with modifications or changes - no matter how slight - should be considered an override.
TBH they should have specifically mentioned that it modified what goes with the Undead trait rather than use the nebulous "These are somewhat different from the normal undead creature abilities to better fit player characters." wording.
As is, it is not crystal clear if BUB changes anything that comes with the Undead trait, even if it is very likely RAI.
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Sorry to bring this up again. But there are more complications.
The rules here state Soothe works on player undead options. But this is an explicit contradiction of the rules as Soothe requires a living target.
Because of negative healing many typical means of healing don’t work on undead. The heal spell can’t heal undead, but harm and soothe can. Healing potions and elixirs of life are no use, but an oil of unlife can heal undead. In addition, a character can take the Stitch Flesh skill feat to heal undead with Treat Wounds.
and Soothe
Targets 1 willing living creature
I'm deeply disapointed with the rules standards in the new book. This is a simple contradiction and they don't even note an errata at the same time.
Of course by the Negative Healing trait Elixirs of Life do work, it is Healing Potions that have the Positive trait which don't work.
Clearly Soothe needs errata now, as apparently it is supposed to work. But I am just going to be deleting this little rules section as it is just wrong. Traits have to mean something or the rules are just rubbish.
Elixir of life has the healing trait
He said "Negative Healing trait Elixirs of Life do work", Negative healing says "not healed by positive healing effects" and Elixir of life has "Alchemical, Consumable, Elixir, Healing".
So what he said is totally correct: elixirs of life work just fine with Negative healing. Undead is where you get no "benefit from healing effects."
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BTW if you go with the Undead tag (which I claim is overwritten by Negative Healing) then all Healing would be out. Soothe of course has the Healing trait and is supposed to work!
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Sorry to bring this up again. But there are more complications.
The rules here state Soothe works on player undead options. But this is an explicit contradiction of the rules as Soothe requires a living target.
Because of negative healing many typical means of healing don’t work on undead. The heal spell can’t heal undead, but harm and soothe can. Healing potions and elixirs of life are no use, but an oil of unlife can heal undead. In addition, a character can take the Stitch Flesh skill feat to heal undead with Treat Wounds.
and Soothe
Targets 1 willing living creatureI'm deeply disapointed with the rules standards in the new book. This is a simple contradiction and they don't even note an errata at the same time.
Of course by the Negative Healing trait Elixirs of Life do work, it is Healing Potions that have the Positive trait which don't work.
Clearly Soothe needs errata now, as apparently it is supposed to work. But I am just going to be deleting this little rules section as it is just wrong. Traits have to mean something or the rules are just rubbish.
So Soothe, Elixir of Life, and Treat Wounds all lack the positive and negative traits, have the healing trait, and state that they only work on living creatures.
But the sidebar states that Soothe works on undead PCs while Elixir of Life doesn't. So there must be some hidden criteria that is being used to determine which effects heal undead PCs.
Without knowing what those criteria are, there isn't any way to determine whether Treat Wounds (sans Stitch Flesh) works on undead PCs.
BTW if you go with the Undead tag (which I claim is overwritten by Negative Healing) then all Healing would be out. Soothe of course has the Healing trait and is supposed to work!The problem with Negative Healing overwriting the Undead trait is... they're not mutually exclusive? All undead have both of them. The overwrite is them not getting immunity to disease or poison.
Undead don't have that from the Undead trait. Just a lot of them have that in their stat block. So no player option has that, and it is not a rules problem, just a balance decision the designers made.