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I tried my hand at a guide. Here it is:
The Bloodrager: Anger with Style
So tell me, what have I missed, what have I got wrong, what's unclear or just ugly to you?
I like the example builds. That grappling Gnome with the bite looks fun.
I will say that the Hag-Riven archetype, with the Hag Bloodline, isn't completely garbage if you're a Changeling... take the Annis Hag [Hulking Changeling] influence for a +1 racial bonus to melee damage, and I gave up my claws and natural armor for Hag Magic since you get claws from the archetype/Bloodline combination. Take Arcane Strike at 5, Mother's Gift at 6, Blooded Arcane Strike at 7, Awakened Hag Heritage at 9... and all four Damnation feats whenever you can squeeze them in.
Cool. I was trying to show off as many different builds as possible. I didn't think the gnome was the most inventive of them, but perhaps it's more unexpected than most.
Re the archetype yeah, but you can take those race options and those feats (well, mother's gift will need a general feat rather than a bonus feat) with the abyssal bloodline which has similar enough flavour to hag-riven + hag bloodline, and gets better numbers with the claws when big, and whose bonuses are better at applying to other natural or manufactured weapon attacks you might get.
The hag bloodline might be useful if you're squirming through tight spaces while fighting vermin but any other time the abyssal bloodline just looks better. The hag-riven archetype makes the comparison plainer; stronger, faster, better.
Irrepressible, of course. It's better for a pure spellcaster who will be getting a big bonus, but still worth mentioning.
I can see dipping battle oracle (I mentioned dipping one of the Cha -> Dex mysteries), but what does rage prophet 1 add here? The oracle level alone gives the curse and the spellcasting, rage prophet 1 just lets the prestige class level (1) stack for the curse and gives a bunch of orisons.
A rage prophet's class level stacks with barbarian levels for determining the effect of rage powers, and with oracle levels for determining the effect of oracle revelations and his oracle's curse. This does not grant additional abilities.
This is saying barbarian levels stack with rage prophet levels for the effect of rage powers, and separately oracle levels stack with rage prophet levels for the effect of oracle revelations and the curse. It doesn't make barbarian levels stack directly for revelations or the curse.
On the other hand oracle curses do stack with half of non-oracle levels for effect. A bloodrager 6 / oracle 1 / rage prophet 1 would have a level of 6*0.5 + 1 + 1 = 5 as far as the curse is concerned.
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My quote's from Archives of Nethys, which is I think better updated than d20pfsrd. Also it'd be easier to leave out a phrase by accident than to add one. For now I'll leave rage prophet off my recommendations.
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d20pfsrd.com has the wording from the first printing of the APG, whereas AoN has the wording form the second printing.
I guess this serves as the weekly reminder that d20pfsrd.com should never be used as a definitive rule source.
Short loading times for suspect information and annoying popups? Yes please!
On topic, I dig the guide, really can't argue with the content.
As to formatting, I understand the move away from the color coding, but while perusing this on my phone I had to do some zooming and squinting to be sure of the number of pips on the dice.
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Nice work. I especially liked the variety of the sample builds showcasing what the bloodrager is capable of.
I would also have added Runestone of Power (1st) and potentially the Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism (for the action economy advantage equipping a familiar with it can give) to the item list, but they may not be bloodrager-specific enough.
As for feats, ways to not run of rage are important when your entire class hinges on rage. Gore Fiend and Recovered Rage are available but may not compete with the standard Extra Rage until you've gotten some levels under your belt.
You can cheese Destroyer's Blessing with any non-hand natural attack when full-attacking, which leaves you with plenty of rounds as a Metamagic Rager or to spend on Raging Brutality.
Speaking of hinging on rage, unless you are very confident in your perception and initiative it's a good idea to be able to activate rage as an immediate action. Headband of Havoc (competes with +Cha), Lightning Rager (surprise round only), one level of Ulfen Guard prc, or that rage power available to Primalist.
@Java Man - larger dice or abandon that gimmick do you think?
@Azothath - thanks, but I don't particularly like your style guide and won't be rewriting to use it.
@Wonderstell - you normally can't use an immediate action until your first action has come up anyway. Is it that useful? Except the bladed dash trick, that's unexpected and impressive.
I'll add runestones and pages of spell knowledge (1st) but I think an ioun stone for your familiar misses the cut. I'll put something in about rage recovery.
@Java Man - larger dice or abandon that gimmick ....
If the dice were the height of capital letters maybe? Using dice does have a nice 'gamer' feel.
Also, I now notice (how did I miss it?) that you did not review races, is that intentional?
If the dice were the height of capital letters maybe? Using dice does have a nice 'gamer' feel.
Also, I now notice (how did I miss it?) that you did not review races, is that intentional?
I'm not convinced that there's a lot to be said about races. +Str/+Cha being best and +Dex/Con/Wis being useful but not awesome should be obvious, the alternate FCBs are possibly useful but if you forget about them no big deal, and I can't think of racially specific items or feats which especially apply to a bloodrager. The example builds come with a variety of races and mention a couple of things in passing. Do you think a section on races would be more than padding?
I've changed the first six dice to be larger, under the Formatting heading. Are they big enough? I can change the others to match if they are. It's amazing how differently one document may display on different devices.
That is substantially easier to see.
As to the helpfulness of the race section, I don't know of much to say that would help me, but to be honest feel like I have a pretty good handle on this class, so maybe others would appreciate it? Dunno.
@Wonderstell - you normally can't use an immediate action until your first action has come up anyway. Is it that useful? Except the bladed dash trick, that's unexpected and impressive.
"You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed."
Luckily Bloodragers come equipped with Uncanny Dodge which allows them to take immediate actions whenever.
It's a pretty important line of defense to be able to rage before enemies can act, especially since Bloodragers (and Barbs) have so much that depends on you raging.
Someone with the Arcane Bloodline caught with their pants down would love to have their Energy Resistance and 50% miss chance up for the potential two rounds of incoming enemy attacks before they get a chance to act. And someone with Abyssal would prefer to hulk out for the added reach before enemies have moved close, getting those AoOs.
Just got to start on reading this guide yesterday, and then no more time today, so I'll just copy and pasted what I posted before I knew where to post it:
I do like the dice symbols for ratings, even though I've also grown fond of the colors (as long as they don't include brilliant yellow or brilliant light green on white background -- ugh). This is GOOD. This is a new one on me, but right away I like it. (Just watch out for dice inflation, or eventually we'll have somebody putting up zocchihedron symbols.)
With regard to the Immediate Action vs Flat-Footed condition problem: That means we need to automatically ding any archetype that trades out Uncanny Dodge.
With regard to Rage Prophet: Awesome concept, fatally flawed design . . . and not updated for Bloodrager. So you have to waste one of the precious Rage Powers you get from the Primalist archetype on Moment oF Clarity, which is almost useless for a Bloodrager, just to qualify. Then Rage Prophet is only progressing Oracle abilities, including spellcasting(*) -- so you might as well make Bloodrager the dip and be a full-on Oracle/Rage Prophet . . . except that Primalist only kicks in at 4 levels of Bloodrager, so its a DEEP dip.
(*)You wouldn't want to progress Bloodrager spellcasting with Rage Prophet anyway, since it is 4/9 spellcasting and further impaired by the approximately 3/4 spellcasting progression of Rage Prophet.
Rage Prophet should have been a hybrid class of Barbarian and Oracle, sort of like how Bloodrager is a hybrid class of Barbarian and Sorcerer, although with different details due to the different way Mysteries and their Revelations work. (But preferably with better correspondence between Oracle and Rage Prophet Mysteries than what we got between Sorcerer and Bloodrager Bloodlines, which ended up being a truly horrific mess.)
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The rage prophet was only brought up because of an oddity in the wording which was fixed in the second printing. Without that we're agreed, no rage prophet.
Not every bloodrager needs uncanny dodge for the sake of immediate action rage. Many won't have that ability because they can't spare a feat (bloodragers are feat-starved if they want to do anything beyond power attack), can't/won't get the Ulfen Guard PrC for any of a dozen reasons, need/want a headband for Cha, and the only rage power for immediate action rage I can find needs them to be subject to a fear effect. Others don't have awesome defensive powers which are brought online by rage. Uncanny dodge is useful in its own right as Mightypion points out though.
I think I'll adjust the vanilla build in my guide to have lightning rager and point it and a few similar things there. Building it around vital strike was fun but eh, VS is more for the feat-rich.
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Many won't have that ability because they can't spare a feat (bloodragers are feat-starved if they want to do anything beyond power attack), can't/won't get the Ulfen Guard PrC for any of a dozen reasons, need/want a headband for Cha, and the only rage power for immediate action rage I can find needs them to be subject to a fear effect. Others don't have awesome defensive powers which are brought online by rage. Uncanny dodge is useful in its own right as Mightypion points out though.
Yeup. Very true. Not everyone needs it, and even those who want it have more important priorities. It is a great way to cheat initiative at later levels but will imo not be worthwhile if you play below lv 9.
Primalists have access to Savage Intuition which circumvents the need for Uncanny Dodge and is superior to all other options, because of course they do.
I was just talking about Race section of someone's guide, yesterday, so I've got thoughts all lined up!
In general, I think that most guides are too long. They are full-on reading sessions rather than a thing to easily reference when I'm creating a character. It is not necessary to evaluate every race like I see some guides do. Ideally...
+Str/+Cha being best and +Dex/Con/Wis being useful but not awesome should be obvious, the alternate FCBs are possibly useful but if you forget about them no big deal
... is fine. Most players already have an idea of their favorite races or races that they want to try out and can evaluate based on that criteria. I don't advise skipping a Race section completely, as you never know what level of knowledge a reader may have, and, especially for melee classes, a brief note about movement speed can be helpful.
Yes, if there are racial traits FCBs that are especially beneficial to a class, they should be noted, however...
--Half Orcs have some pretty good alternate racial traits, such as 120 foot darkvision or sacred tatoo.
...advice like this is applicable to all classes, and I can see not wanting to include it in a guide about a specific class.
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^What's EITR?
{. . .}
Not every bloodrager needs uncanny dodge for the sake of immediate action rage. Many won't have that ability because they can't spare a feat (bloodragers are feat-starved if they want to do anything beyond power attack), {. . .}
It wouldn't be so bad if only they had another bonus feat at 3rd level (like they do every 3 levels after that) instead of the nearly useless Blood Sanctuary (and of course if they had a bit better selection of Bloodline Feats -- some of those lists are just lousy).
Good to have some free bloodragery guide-stuff out there for PF1e, avr- now with a 110% more discussion to boot. ;)
Elephant in the room = EITR, it is a rather popular set of house rules. It essentially hands out a lot of free feats to martials. Naturally, playing a bloodrager under this ruleset is more fun because you typically get new options for one feat.
Elephant in the room rules
Okay, I've actually seen that -- just didn't think of it from the abbreviation.
* * * * * * * *
Getting a bit into the guide beyond the dice symbols.
General: Most of the links go to a redirection page that doesn't redirect automatically. Google Docs bug?
I too would have liked to have seen a Races section.
Class Abilities: Would have been good to expand upon these and rate them for what you want to keep (for instance, Uncanny Dodge) and what's trade-out bait (for instance, Blood Sanctuary). One thing to note about the spellcasting: You DON'T have Dispel Magic on your list, and none of the Bloodline Spells include it (not even Arcane, which insntead gets Lightning Bolt, which usually isn't very useful for a Bloodrager).
Bloodlines: Same thing here as for class abilities (keepers already mentioned for a few of them, but would like to see a more consistent expansion).
Tricks of the trade: feats -- since you're mentioning the spell Enlarge Person for getting reach, also mention the spell Long Arm (and their effects are additive with each other).
Archetypes: Metamagic Rager (and VMC later on) -- As long as your campaign isn't going into the very high levels, VMC Barbarian actually makes sense. VMC Barbarian I gets you scaling Extra Rage (starts out weaker than the feat if you couldn't start out with Constitution at least 16, but pretty soon gets stronger) -- this is very good for a Metamagic Rager since using Metamagic is going to eat monster amounts of rounds of Rage (rating 5/6). VMC Barbarian II gives you Uncanny Dodge, which since Metamagic Rager trades out Improved Uncanny Dodge but not Uncanny Dodge, gets you your Improved Uncanny Dodge back, just 2 levels late (rating = 4/6). VMC Barbarian III gets you a Rage Power even if you can't use the Primalist archetype (rating 4/6). VMC Barbarian IV gives you a little bit of Damage Reduction -- it doesn't seem like much, but stack it with Quilted Cloth Armor, and many ranged enemies will have a hard time damaging you (rating 3/6). VMC Barbarian V is the stinker here -- it gives you Greater Rage, but you already have Greater Bloodrage (rating 0/6).
Archetypes: Primalist -- getting Rage Powers in return for a Bloodlien Power really does seem overpowered, and might be a reason you might need to go VMC Barbarian to get a Rage Power (see above), although VMC Barbarian is good in its own right.
A warrior’s tools: magic items: Ring of Ancestral Blood Magic -- VMC Barbarian is good for this too.
Next: Builds (this guide has a LOT of them).
To give a different viewpoint, I wholeheartedly support leaving out race section and an in-depth look at class features.
If people can't figure out on their own that bonuses to your attack stat and to your casting stat are better than penalties to those stats, I don't think Pathfinder is the right game for them. Likewise, most of the standout racial traits (regular or alternative) are generic (i.e. good for all/most builds, not just one class), and I'd expect people to either already know about them, or find them themself when looking through the race.
I also personally think people don't necessarily need to know which race or trait is the absolut mechanical best or whatever. I wouldn't want to discourage people playing their race (and traits) of choice in favor of yet another Fate's Favored/Sacred Tattoo half-orc.
As for class features, players who aren't interested in how the class really works will probably just pick the highest rated option, whereas those who are interested should be able to figure out themself that Blood Sanctuary is weak.
Regarding Metamagic Rager and VMC (Barb): I hope you realize that while bloodrage counts as rage, the opposite is not true. You can't use rage rounds from VMC to fuel Meta-Rage, and none of your class features that function with bloodrage (like Blood Casting or "when entering a bloodrage" bloodline powers) work with it. That makes the rage nothing but a fall-back options for when you've run out of bloodrage rounds, and thus rather weak. I think you're vastly overrating Improved Uncanny Dodge, as it's just a very situational +2 AC (unless your campaign is full of Rogues). I also don't think many GMs will let you stack DR. Meanwhile, a Rage Power is super powerful, and the VMC lets you qualify for the Extra Rage Power feat.
@avr: I would remove the blank line between the name (and rating) of an option and the commentory text. Or the extra space before/after paragraphs, if that's done via formatting. It's just a lot of empty space that serves no purpose and only makes the guide longer.
Also, I would turn the bloodlines and archetype names into links, like you've already done for magic items.
As for feats, ways to not run of rage are important when your entire class hinges on rage.
Do people actually run out of rage rounds past the very first levels? Extra Rage is certainly useful for a campaign that lasts from 1st to 3rd level, but unless you can retrain, I wouldn't take any such option for a regular campaign.
The builds are the way I think about options, I find it easier to think about a concrete example than about 10 different components of the example scattered around. Hence a whole lot of them.
There's few enough bloodrager archetypes that I think it's easier to consider the whole archetype each time than whether the urban bloodrager losing blood sanctuary matters (which it doesn't of course.)
To give a different viewpoint, I wholeheartedly support leaving out race section and an in-depth look at class features.
If people can't figure out on their own that bonuses to your attack stat and to your casting stat are better than penalties to those stats, I don't think Pathfinder is the right game for them. Likewise, most of the standout racial traits (regular or alternative) are generic (i.e. good for all/most builds, not just one class), and I'd expect people to either already know about them, or find them themself when looking through the race.
I also personally think people don't necessarily need to know which race or trait is the absolut mechanical best or whatever. I wouldn't want to discourage people playing their race (and traits) of choice in favor of yet another Fate's Favored/Sacred Tattoo half-orc.
It isn't just the ability score bonuses and penalties. For instance, I have seen in a PbP an instance where a Half-Orc Barbarian (pre-Unchained)/Oracle (was going for Rage Prophet, but not there yet) got wounded to the negatives (with imminent danger of death upon Constitution dropping upon end of Rage). Used Orc Ferocity to stay up for another round and Moment of Clarity to cast Cure Moderate(?) Wounds on self, resulting in enough hit points to stay alive upon falling unconscious and thereby dropping out of Rage. Now, that's a Barbarian/Oracle (pre-Rage-Prophet) and not a Bloodrager, but that concept is the same. It's the options other than ability scores that don't get enough attention.
To give an example closer to home for this thread, for Humans, the +2 anywhere is nice, but if you're going to be a Bloodrager who is going to get Improved (and maybe even purl=Greater) Eldritch Heritage, and also wants to have some social skills, it's the option to trade out the Human Bonus Feat for Powerful Presence (scroll down the above-linked page, and isn't on www.d20pfsrd.com at all) that is the real gravy: It lets you avoid having to put your +2 on Charisma in the first place by giving you a 2 point break on the Charisma prerequisites, AND it gives you Persuasive as a fixed bonus feat.
As for class features, players who aren't interested in how the class really works will probably just pick the highest rated option, whereas those who are interested should be able to figure out themself that Blood Sanctuary is weak.
Ratings of these things are still good for somebody who is in the early to middle stages of learning how the class really works.
Regarding Metamagic Rager and VMC (Barb): I hope you realize that while bloodrage counts as rage, the opposite is not true. You can't use rage rounds from VMC to fuel Meta-Rage, and none of your class features that function with bloodrage (like Blood Casting or "when entering a bloodrage" bloodline powers) work with it. That makes the rage nothing but a fall-back options for when you've run out of bloodrage rounds, and thus rather weak.
I've wondered about that, but assuming the most unfavorable ruling, that just means that you should use preferentially use Rage from the VMC when you DON'T need the extra features (including Meta-Rage) provided by Bloodrage, and then temporarily switch over to Bloodrage when you need them, and then switch right back over to Rage from the VMC until it runs out or you need Bloodrage again.
I think you're vastly overrating Improved Uncanny Dodge, as it's just a very situational +2 AC (unless your campaign is full of Rogues). I also don't think many GMs will let you stack DR. Meanwhile, a Rage Power is super powerful, and the VMC lets you qualify for the Extra Rage Power feat.
{. . .}
AC +2 is nothing to sneeze at when you are knee-deep in a bunch of minions, and if some of them are Babau Demons (think of Wrath of the Righteous), you'll be in a world of hurt if you don't have Improved Uncanny Dodge. And enemy Rogues have been known to show up in some 1st Edition APs.
I would have given the Rage Power a higher rating if it wasn't limited to those of Barbarian level of no more than half your Character level. As for qualifying for Extra Rage Power, I know that some of the other VMCs have text explicitly forbidding that and VMC Barbarian doesn't, but I wonder if that was just an oversight?
And I thought Damage Reduction stacked by default (all sorts of other bonuses have explicit text in the core rules saying that they don't stack).
More guide stuff now.
Bloodlines Addendum: Vestige -- This bloodline has the advantage that even if you can't cast spells, even if due to loss of Charisma (or not having enough in the first place), you can still get decent use out of all of your spell slots on your Bloodlien Powers. Duergar (-4 Charisma!) Bloodrager with the Vestige Bloodline is viable if not outstanding.
Builds: General: Intelligence 8 is going to make us really hurting for skills. Also, you might want to mention that the ability score arrays are starting and do not include the level-up ability score increases (at least the first 2 builds look that way, assuming that 20 point buy continues to be the standard after the first one, which explicitly states this).
Builds: Vanilla (now why don't guides offer that flavor more often?) -- Seeing Cleaving Finish which gives you 1 extra attack per turn as opposed to Great Cleave which gives you unlimited extra attacks per round got me thinking: Great Cleave would give you more hits if you waded into a bunch of minions, but it requires that they be adjacent to each other as well as within reach, whereas Cleaving Finish doesn't (just that they are in reach). And if the minions are slightly smart or you just get unlucky, they might not all be adjacent to each other, so Great Cleave might not get you all that many extra hits. On the other hand, Cleaving Finish requires that you down whoever you hit to get an extra hit -- just hitting the first target isn't good enough. So I would still be inclined to lean towards Great Cleave if you want to keep investing in the Cleave series. You could get more extra hits with Cleave Through . . . except that requires you to be a Dwarf. So what if we actually did this with Dwarf instead of Half-Orc? Using 20 point buy, initial array is Str 16; Dex 12; Con 14 + 2 = 16; Int 10; Wis 8 + 2 = 10; Cha 12. Strength is 2 points less (1 point less Strength bonus to attack and damage), and Charisma is 1 point less (need to invest 2 level-up points instead of 1 to be able to cast 4th level spells at 13th level), but Constitution is 1 point higher (more hit points and more Bloodrage, and better Fortitude Saves even before you consider Hardy or Untouchable), and Intelligence is 2 points higher (not so hosed in skill ranks). Of course, the downside of Dwarf is speed, but if you are in Medium Armor (which you probably will be with Dexterity 12) it's really only 5 feet slower instead of 10 feet slower (thanks to Slow and Steady).
Builds: Metablaster -- Another variation on this would be to do like the next build and get Dazing Spell instead of Empower Spell -- less damage, but then some of them are Dazed while you hack up the rest; eventually get an Intermediate Rod of Persistent Spell (you explicitly can't apply more than 1 Metamagic Feat with Meta-Rage, but nothing says you can't use Meta-Rage and a Metamagic Rod at the same time).
Many barbarian players are fine with Int 8. I suspect the same to be true of bloodrager players. I do have one skill-focused build in the list, and the archer and humans do get 4 skill points/level. And - actually dumping Wis below 10 is asking for trouble IMO, for perception and will saves. I should note something about level-ups.
Cleaving finish works with any attack, not just cleaves. Which matters because the vanilla build will seldom want to perform the cleave action, I may need to make that clearer. The abyssal bloodline has few decent bloodline feats and throwing one at a seldom-used prereq seemed acceptable.
Re dazing spell see the immediate next build. I'd rather keep them distinct.
It isn't just the ability score bonuses and penalties.
If you want to comment on every racial trait that might under some circumstances be of some use, the guide's length will increase by 50 pages. I'm not opposed to a note for a few real standouts, but I think the usual "let's do an in-depth look at fourty different races, most of which aren't even allowed at most tables" thing is just a waste of space. There's a somewhat muddy line between "you should pick this race because of X" and "if you're already picking this race, X is nice", for which reason I wouldn't rate notable racial traits, but pointing out cool or unusual ones with direct relation to the class could be done.
Hard to draw a line, though, as for example I don't see why a Bloodrager would need Powerful Presence for Eldritch Heritage. You should have enough charisma anyway. Similarly, since drawing a potion provokes, and Orc Ferocity is only once per day for one round, I don't see it as stronger than Sacred Tattoo even on a BR. Pointing out Orc Ferocity as a 'ccol option' might make it look better than it is.
Ratings of these things are still good for somebody who is in the early to middle stages of learning how the class really works.
Only if you also do a full evaluation of every single ability of every archetype, because otherwise, knowing that the value of base class features is worthless without knowing the value of their potential replacements.
Overall, what you're asking for is a completely different style of guide - one geared towards inexperienced players. If you think that's a gap that should be filled, why not write one yourself?!
you should use preferentially use Rage from the VMC when you DON'T need the extra features (including Meta-Rage) provided by Bloodrage, and then temporarily switch over to Bloodrage when you need them
- While you can switch rages per FAQ, you'd need to spend rounds on both to not get fatigued. And that's with favourable ruling that the old rage doesn't automatically end.
I think you're deluding yourself regarding how useful the Rage from VMC Barb is for a BR.
AC +2 is nothing to sneeze at when you are knee-deep in a bunch of minions
How often are you flanked, really? How often are you Sneak Attack'ed? You could also easily get a permanet +2 to AC from VMC Witch. And the Arcane bloodline's Blur and Displacement make you immune against most Sneak Attacks, too.
I would have given the Rage Power a higher rating if it wasn't limited to those of Barbarian level of no more than half your Character level.
Half level for qualifying, full level for effects, relevant for the likes of Superstition and Reckless Abandon.
As for qualifying for Extra Rage Power, I know that some of the other VMCs have text explicitly forbidding that and VMC Barbarian doesn't, but I wonder if that was just an oversight?
And maybe the class not stating that you instantaneously die if the fatigue after a rage isn't removed by magic was an oversight, too. Or maybe we should stop trying to make up reasons for rules to not do what they say, and just follow the rules until there's a problem...
Vanilla (now why don't guides offer that flavor more often?)
People may disagree what constitutes "vanilla", and thus a build may get named different despite being somewhat of the default (think Greater Beast Totem Barbarian). On the flip side, I personally wouldn't call a build with VS and Cleave "vanilla". I'd also consider Arcane the most "vanilla" bloodline, and use Abyssal for a build with a reach weapon...
It isn't just the ability score bonuses and penalties.If you want to comment on every racial trait that might under some circumstances be of some use, the guide's length will increase by 50 pages. I'm not opposed to a note for a few real standouts, {. . .}
Which is what I was getting at (although I have to admit to tending to go into more extensive detail myself once I get started . . .). You want an example from me? Not a whole guide, but here you go for Slayer (scroll down a bit).
Hard to draw a line, though, as for example I don't see why a Bloodrager would need Powerful Presence for Eldritch Heritage. You should have enough charisma anyway. Similarly, since drawing a potion provokes, and Orc Ferocity is only once per day for one round, I don't see it as stronger than Sacred Tattoo even on a BR. Pointing out Orc Ferocity as a 'ccol option' might make it look better than it is.
Not necessarily a cool option, just one that can actually save you if used properly. Not even the coolest option, just one that popped into my head because I saw it work in actual use. (And I do agree about the once per day hurting it, and I do agree that Sacred Tattoo is stronger overall, but on the other hand, Orc Ferocity is also a prerequisite for some feats, including Ferocious Resolve, which gives you the Ferocity Universal Monster Ability, which doesn't have a 1 use per day limit.) With respect to Eldritch Heritage and Bloodrager Charisma, a Bloodrager isn't guaranteed to have enough Charisma early. A build that has just enough Charisma to cast all 4 levels of spells (and doesn't make much use of spells that allow Saves) is perfectly valid, and while one built on a Human chassis will probably have enough Charisma for the first feat in the chain, it could well not have enough for the later ones. If you weren't doing anything with social skills, it would be better to just bump up Charisma a bit for Improved Eldritch Heritage, but if you do want to use Intimidate and Diplomacy, Persuasive is like 2/3 of 2 Skill Focus feats.
{. . .}
you should use preferentially use Rage from the VMC when you DON'T need the extra features (including Meta-Rage) provided by Bloodrage, and then temporarily switch over to Bloodrage when you need themWhile you can switch rages per FAQ, you'd need to spend rounds on both to not get fatigued. And that's with favourable ruling that the old rage doesn't automatically end.
I think you're deluding yourself regarding how useful the Rage from VMC Barb is for a BR.
That FAQ doesn't say you go into Fatigue for switching Rages, so switching Rages should be no problem as long as you aren't in one that you can't end voluntarily (which it also mentions).
As for qualifying for Extra Rage Power, I know that some of the other VMCs have text explicitly forbidding that and VMC Barbarian doesn't, but I wonder if that was just an oversight?And maybe the class not stating that you instantaneously die if the fatigue after a rage isn't removed by magic was an oversight, too. Or maybe we should stop trying to make up reasons for rules to not do what they say, and just follow the rules until there's a problem...
No need to be aggressively dismissive. I wondered about the oversight because of the imbalance between different VMCs, although admittedly the VMCs have worse imbalance problems than that, which were never fixed (VMC was a one-shot introduction in Pathfinder Unchained and as far as I know never got any attention after that). Now my approach on this matter would have been to make all of the VMCs let you qualify for the corresponding Extra Talent feat once they give you a Talent, but obviously adding text that prohibits this isn't an oversight (a design mistake, maybe, but not an oversight), whereas not applying it evenly could be an oversight (likely from rushed editing).
Vanilla (now why don't guides offer that flavor more often?)People may disagree what constitutes "vanilla", and thus a build may get named different despite being somewhat of the default (think Greater Beast Totem Barbarian). On the flip side, I personally wouldn't call a build with VS and Cleave "vanilla". I'd also consider Arcane the most "vanilla" bloodline, and use Abyssal for a build with a reach weapon...
When referring to archetypes, people often refer to No Archetype as Vanilla (which leaves you with a great many options, more than some archetypes). Besides, I'm also trying to think of the experience for the Dragons (and the mossquitoes) . . . .
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Link without using google docs publishing. Could someone let me know whether it does away with the redirect page on links to AoN? Also I think that's read-only but if it's not please let me know.
VMC barb looks like it gives rage power as a class feature which is what the extra rage power feat requires. That some other VMCs prohibit equivalent things doesn't stop it working here in the rules as written. Quite likely it was an oversight, but that hardly stops other oversights being used.
You want an example from me? Not a whole guide, but here you go for Slayer (scroll down a bit).
That... just made me lose my will to live. I mean, really, Plagueborn? That stuff is exactly what I think should not be in a guide.
Orc Ferocity is also a prerequisite for some feats including Ferocious Resolve
If the feat is noteworthy, it should be in the feats section, and anyone looking at it will see that it needs that racial trait. Either way, that doesn't make the racial trait itself noteworthy.
a Bloodrager isn't guaranteed to have enough Charisma early.
How many Bloodragers start below 13 charisma? How many of those also want Eldritch Heritage? By the time the improved and greater version become selectable, a respectve Headband of Alluring Charisma is long overdue.
This goes back to you apparently wanting to cover situations that maybe one in a thousand readers might encounter, and that literally no one else cares about.
That FAQ doesn't say you go into Fatigue for switching Rages
If you're no longer in your old rage, it has ended. So you either need to keep it going without getting benefits, or you're fatigued.
No need for the contemptuous snark.
Says you. I despise this habit of always looking for the fly in the ointment. Why is it so hard to let rule options do what they say, barring something that's broken or disfunctional?
Also, Hexes (even stuck at 1st level) are way stronger than Rage Powers (at half level to qualify) or Magus Arcanae, I say it makes sense to treat them differently. I think it was deliberate, and not an oversight.
When referring to archetypes, people often refer to No Archetype as Vanilla
I know what vanilla means - but "no archetype" isn't a build. In any case, you need to make choices, and while some classes push you in one direciton really hard (looking at you, Swashbuckler!), I don't think most classes have a "default" build - hence the lack of builds being called as such in guides.
@avr -- I tested at least 1 link from each section of the guide version that you linked (including a 3rd party link), and it works with no redirection.
You want an example from me? Not a whole guide, but here you go for Slayer (scroll down a bit).That... just made me lose my will to live. I mean, really, Plagueborn? That stuff is exactly what I think should not be in a guide.
Made you lose your will to live? How can that be? Besides, you asked me why don't I write my own guide . . . .
If the feat is noteworthy, it should be in the feats section, and anyone looking at it will see that it needs that racial trait. Either way, that doesn't make the racial trait itself noteworthy.Orc Ferocity is also a prerequisite for some feats including Ferocious Resolve
Several feats require Ferocity, and thereby for a Half-Orc end up requiring Ferocious Resolve.
a Bloodrager isn't guaranteed to have enough Charisma early.How many Bloodragers start below 13 charisma? How many of those also want Eldritch Heritage? By the time the improved and greater version become selectable, a respectve Headband of Alluring Charisma is long overdue.
This goes back to you apparently wanting to cover situations that maybe one in a thousand readers might encounter, and that literally no one else cares about.
From depending upon a Headband of Alluring Charisma to give you enough Charisma to qualify for a feat with a Charisma prerequisite, it isn't too much of a stretch to be depending upon it to have enough Charisma to cast all your spells.
That FAQ doesn't say you go into Fatigue for switching RagesIf you're no longer in your old rage, it has ended. So you either need to keep it going without getting benefits, or you're fatigued.
The way I see it, after switching, you're still in a Rage -- the Rage has changed a bit, and is using a different Rage reservoir, but you haven't stopped being in a Rage, so no Fatigue yet.
No need for the contemptuous snark.Says you. I despise this habit of always looking for the fly in the ointment. Why is it so hard to let rule options do what they say, barring something that's broken or disfunctional?
Now, who's looking for the fly in the ointment just above? Admittedly, I should take it as extra warning that some GMs like to put flies in ointments (as I have heard elsewhere of GMs doing with respect to other issues).
Also, Hexes (even stuck at 1st level) are way stronger than Rage Powers (at half level to qualify) or Magus Arcanae, I say it makes sense to treat them differently. I think it was deliberate, and not an oversight....
Hexes that AREN'T stuck at 1st level I could see calling much stronger than Rage Powers that are at full level for effect but half level to qualify, but Hexes that ARE stuck at 1st level (keep in mind that this includes Save DC) for the most part rapidly fall off in effectiveness.
Link without using google docs publishing. Could someone let me know whether it does away with the redirect page on links to AoN? Also I think that's read-only but if it's not please let me know.
Yes, it's read-only with a "Request edit access" button at the top.
Clicking on a link took me to a redirect page for a split second before taking me to AoN.
Ta UAE and Andostre for checking that.
I've added a section on ability scores and races which talks in generalities. I'm not going to list exactly which races and variants get natural attacks or SLAs which might be useful for a natural attack-focused bloodrager for example. Sorry to anyone who wanted that included.
The way I see it, after switching, you're still in a Rage
- You are. But your old rage has still ended, and the respective rage descriptions don't say "when you are no longer in a rage", but rather "When the bloodrage ends", and "after a rage ends".
Saying "when you replace an effect with another one, the old effect has ended" is not looking for the fly in the ointment, it's using common sense. The definition of "to end" is "to make something finish or stop". If you used to be in a Bloodrage, and now you aren't in a Bloodrage, your Bloodrage has stopped - and thus, it has ended.
Hexes that AREN'T stuck at 1st level I could see calling much stronger than Rage Powers that are at full level for effect but half level to qualify, but Hexes that ARE stuck at 1st level (keep in mind that this includes Save DC) for the most part rapidly fall off in effectiveness.
When qualifying for Extra Hex, you could have Protective Luck + Soothsayer (amazing even at a single round) or Greater Gift of Consumption.
Also, considering that the limit to Slumber is really unnecessary considering that both the DC and duration are terrible anyway, it's actually not unlikely that some of the limitations where done by an editor, and not all put in by the writer. Back then, the main hexes apart from Slumber were those you'd prolong with Cackle, and if the level 'cap' was added by the editor, the author banning Extra Hex despite not banning Extra Rage Power etc. makes total sense.
Made you lose your will to live? How can that be?
Hyperbole aside, the block text makes it horrible to read, and you seem to be just repeating information without filtering or much recommendation. You have organized it by what's replaced, which would be more useful if one couldn't already find that on AoN. Seriously, most of what you wrote could be replaced by "if there's a racial trait you don't want/need, look at the race on AoN to see a list of replacement options".
^I did want to list racial traits that I thought would be especially useful to a Slayer, but I'll take your point that I should be more explicit about how they would be useful.
The way I read the Rages, when you switch Rage source, your Rage hasn't ended, just your use of that Rage source, like switching from the wall outlet to battery power -- you don't have to shut down and reboot, although it's probably a bad idea to try to run the laser printer off the battery.
Just started looking at the Spells section. Didn't have time to get very far, but I did note the mention of Runic Charge. For most Bloodragers, Runic Charge has the disadvantage that you have to have BOTH hands free (most Bloodragers are going to want to be swinging some kind of manufactured weapon), but this sounds like it fits perfectly for the Blood-Knuckled Rowdy (who often wants to be swinging fists and is not too shabby at this). The Bloody-Knuckled Rowdy losing Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge hurts, but getting bonus Combat Style Master (and before that a bonus Style Feat) partially makes up for it. Runic Charge isn't Spell Combat, but it lets the Bloody-Knuckled Rowdy have a partial equivalent of this on a Charge. Now I think a Bloody-Knuckled Rowdy build should be in there . . . .
@avr: There's something about Bloody-Knuckled Rowdy that I think should be mentioned: They treat their BR levels as Monk levels for style feats and their followups, meaning a BKR qualifies for Pummeling Charge at 8th level. Maybe not the highest damage when standing still, and the diminished casting is annoying, but pounce is highly noteworthy, especially when it comes online comperatively early (two to four levels before other BRs cna get it). Should also work with Runic Charge!
The way I read the Rages, when you switch Rage source, your Rage hasn't ended, just your use of that Rage source
You aren't looking at the individual effects. Say you start a Bloodrage, and next round you start Rage from VMC: Barb, accepting it instead. Either you still are in a Bloodrage, in which case you have to spend rounds of usage, or you are not still in a Bloodrage, in which case it has ended per the definition of the word, and you are exhausted. It must be either of these.
I did want to list racial traits that I thought would be especially useful to a Slayer
What's "especially useful" about Plagueborn? My issue with your lists is that they seem to be about "potentially useful for anyone" rather than "especially useful for this particular class" racial traits.
Bloody-Knuckled Rowdy has an annoying hiccup compared to other style archetypes (MoMS, Unarmed Fighter, Style Shifter) which is that you still need to fulfill the prerequisites for the bonus feat you get at 2nd level. There's not a huge selection of feats available to you at that moment.
Thematically it's also a miss since the aim of the archetype is to allow you to "dabble in multiple techniques, mixing and matching their array of vicious maneuvers to suit the occasion" but provides you with no such ability.
It would have helped immensely if the archetype added style-related feats to your pool of Bloodline Feats like the Blood Conduit does (but with the caveat that you must qualify for them) or just straight up replaced the normal pool like Id Rager.
Bloody-Knuckled Rowdy has an annoying hiccup compared to other style archetypes (MoMS, Unarmed Fighter, Style Shifter) which is that you still need to fulfill the prerequisites for the bonus feat you get at 2nd level. There's not a huge selection of feats available to you at that moment.
- Yeah, you'll probably pick something like Snapping Turtle Style, switching to it at the end of your turn (and back at the start of your next turn) with Combat Style Master at 5th level. CSM itself is also mainly useful for starting a style, and you won't really switch around (other than what I just described).
Still, pounce at 9th level is awesome, and Pummeling Style is something most melees would love to have, too, and with Power Attack from a bloodline feat, and maybe Arcane Strike, the damage is very good.
@avr: There's something about Bloody-Knuckled Rowdy that I think should be mentioned: They treat their BR levels as Monk levels for style feats and their followups, meaning a BKR qualifies for Pummeling Charge at 8th level. Maybe not the highest damage when standing still, and the diminished casting is annoying, but pounce is highly noteworthy, especially when it comes online comperatively early (two to four levels before other BRs cna get it). Should also work with Runic Charge!
Technically not diminished spellcasting, but diminished spells known. Although it still hurts.
The way I read the Rages, when you switch Rage source, your Rage hasn't ended, just your use of that Rage sourceYou aren't looking at the individual effects. Say you start a Bloodrage, and next round you start Rage from VMC: Barb, accepting it instead. Either you still are in a Bloodrage, in which case you have to spend rounds of usage, or you are not still in a Bloodrage, in which case it has ended per the definition of the word, and you are exhausted. It must be either of these.
Bloodrager has the text "Bloodrage counts as the barbarian’s rage class feature for the purpose of feat prerequisites, feat abilities, magic item abilities, and spell effects.", and the Primalist archetype also lets you use Bloodrage as Rage for class abilities (Barbarian Rage Powers), so taken together, they are just 2 different power sources for the same thing. The Rage spell (which is on the Bloodrager spell list) is also like this, except that it doesn't scale in effect, just in duration(*), and it explicitly doesn't make you Fatigued when it quits.
(*)If you cast this yourself, never mind the "Concentration" part of the duration -- just use the 1 round/level part of it.
If I was playing a Metamagic Rager VMC Barbarian under a GM who really insisted on not allowing switching Rage power sources, I would preferentially use the Rage spell (once available and I had enough 2nd level spell slots to spare some(*)) and then Barbarian Rage (switch explicitly non-Fatiguing -- see above) for regular Raging, and use Bloodrager Rage for Meta-Rage (since Meta-Rage explicitly says "The metamagic rager does not have to be bloodraging to use this ability."). If I needed Bloodline Powers in a specific encounter, then I would start with Bloodrage in that encounter. The main hazard would be a (probably) once per day hiccup in Rage if I misjudged how long I was going to need the VMC Barbarian Rage for and ran out, and then either have to fight while Fatigued(**) in the last part of that particular encounter or have to use an action to use a Wand of Lesser Restoration (which is a good thing to have around for other reasons). Another option (if I can get my hands on one or get a party member to make one) is a Cord of Stubborn Resolve, since a Constitution Enhancement belt is a good thing for a Bloodrager to have anyway -- Fatigue hiccup gets converted to 1d6 points of nonlethal damage, which isn't risk-free, but in most cases will leave you up and running, and is easy to fix after the fight.
(*)Might be worth getting a few 2nd level Runestones of Power for this, if possible, especially if I could get a party member to make them, even if they are rather overpriced relative to their usually more functionally valuable cousins, the Pearls of Power.
(**)Can be partially mitigated with the Rage spell, which works even if you are Fatigued.
I did want to list racial traits that I thought would be especially useful to a SlayerWhat's "especially useful" about Plagueborn? My issue with your lists is that they seem to be about "potentially useful for anyone" rather than "especially useful for this particular class" racial traits.
What's useful about Plagueborn? You DON'T want to get Nauseated or even Sickened, but as a martial (Slayer, or on-topic for this thread, a Bloodrager), you will be in a position where this is more likely to happen. Slayer has the additional occupational risk (shared with Rogues and Ninjas) of getting Nauseated or Sickened or even getting some long-term disease if they have to sneak around in really nasty areas, which is something they are especially likely to have to do.