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So there has been a few APs that include various items and feats in the backmatter and occasionally something goes wrong and the balance is a bit off.
From Extinction Curse there is the Bone Croupier, from Agents of Edgewatch you have Heaven's Thunder and from Ruby Phoenix there is also a weapon and a feat that has been commented by developers to be marked for errata because they don't fit the intended balance of the game.
But time has went on and Bone Croupier was noted as an issue almost 1,5 years ago by Mark and it seems right now errata is almost only tied to print runs (except for the Lost Omens line, great job there!) which puts APs in an awkward spot. It also seems that the updated version of the collected Abomination Vaults will not be updating the old PDFs either.
We've also seen APs get unofficial errata with monsters and weapons getting reprinted in other books with changed stats but no addressing the original content. Maybe the FAQ page could be utilized for this?
I am aware that Paizo is busy, has a lot on its plate and an uncommon option in the backmatter of an AP is probably not the highest priority, but it would be nice to know if there was a plan addressing these issues in the future.
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Nope, paizo can barely manage errata for their core books and don't even apply it uniformly (bestiary 2 got some errata changes to creature traits/abilities that weren't listed as bestiary 1 errata)
I don't blame the devs, they obviously know what needs fixing. But paizo... oof
Refusing to put dates on the FAQ page and the joke that was part 1 and part 2 errata for the crb (both got updated with the second printing btw, part 2 wasn't actually the second printing errata in total).
/end rant.
But yeah, they haven't ever updated past APs to my knowledge outside of the special edition releases.
I think Paizo is more likely to errata something if it's probably going to show up in a later book (archetypes, equipment and monsters being the most likely suspects).
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Seeing how it's been over 18 months since the APG was released and we still don't have the errata despite it being done for probably 6-ish months now, I wouldn't hold my breath.
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Paizo is busy dealing with a lot of other things right now. I'd rather they focus on getting Kingmaker done for PF2 than errata for archetypes that probably barely get used.
Isn't most of the Kingmaker conversion done by another company? I know James works with them on this, but I don't think the designers are involved much in Kingmaker - if at all.
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Paizo emailed me about an Adventure Path correction six days ago:
from: Paizo Customer Service <address redacted>
to: Erin <address redacted>
date: Feb 2, 2022, 8:20 PM
subject: Pathfinder Adventure Path #120: Vault of the Onyx Citadel (Ironfang Invasion 6 of 6) (PFRPG) PDF UpdatedDear Erin,
We have updated the Pathfinder Adventure Path #120: Vault of the Onyx Citadel (Ironfang Invasion 6 of 6) (PFRPG) PDF.
Download package updated to include corrected Interactive Maps.
If you wish to download the updated version, you may do so for free at https://paizo.com/paizo/account/assets.
Though they did not explain the issue, I vaguely recall that one interactive map had a flaw in revealing a secret door. I have not used that map yet, so the correction is timely.
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I'd rather they focus on getting Kingmaker done for PF2 than errata for archetypes that probably barely get used.Kingmaker's been done for a while. Just like the APG errata, if information is to be believed. The AP backmatter that's slated for errata has already been indicated in various forum posts too.
Paizo just seems to have some issues with followthrough.
IIRC errata and pdf hinge on the physical books being ready to ship to customers.
The current lasting chaos of international logistics has a huge impact on those and it is clearly out of Paizo's hands.
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I mean, if I'm on the Paizo AP team I might be more concerned about how it's not unlikely they ship all 3 books of Quest for the Frozen Flame before they ship the 6th book from Strength of Thousands than a lack of errata.
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I mean, if I'm on the Paizo AP team I might be more concerned about how it's not unlikely they ship all 3 books of Quest for the Frozen Flame before they ship the 6th book from Strength of Thousands than a lack of errata.
TBH if I was on the Paizo team, I would be concerned about things I have some control over and hope for the best for the rest which includes both of the above BTW.
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Thank you, kindly. I tend to focus on the Product Pages over these General Discussion pages.
This is an evolving topic internally.
We hold most changes until reprints, unless they are “critical”, and the change is needed to prevent a truly bad play experience. We have had, fortunately, very few of these over the years.
Currently, Paizo's errata system is driven by reprints of physical product. Errors are gathered over time. When it is clear that an evergreen product, like a book or accessory, is going to run out of stock the product it updated and the errata is generated by the editorial team. This is sent to the printer and to licensed partners such at Demiplane, Herolab, and the VTT partners. The Editorial Team works with the Web Team to update the FAQ's page only when the warehouse has received to the updated product and it ready to start shipping it. (We are waiting for such a green light for the APG and several other recently reprinted products now. Yes, sometimes the FAQ's have released early, but that is not SOP at the moment.) This way customers are not frustrated when they buy a product from us that is not current. We can't control what is sold through the rest of the distribution chain, of course.
There is not *currently* is an internal workflow to post Adventure Path errata, unless they are critical, because APs are not evergreen products. Our goal is to sell out of them. Most will not be reprinted. They are more like magazines in that Paizo does not keep them in stock.
Our Directors are revisiting the errata process as a whole and contemplating ways to standardize updates in predictable ways. There are many moving parts and participants in this process. Errata can be a huge time-sink and disruptive to the process of creating new products. We do not have a timeline to announce, but we do understand the importance of creating a process you can rely on and not constantly be looking to see if the games you love are still the same.
That said, when there are PDF or digital product flaws, that are not match the print product, I try to call those to the attention of the Webstore to get them fixed ASAP. We have a fairly good workflow going. It is always best to email the store to call product issues to their attention. (Staff members do not get notified when you post an issue on the Forums. We have to actively chose to see what is posted.)
I hope the Editorial Team is not worried about the next volume shipping as they are working on products a year or so down the line. The Marketing, Sales, Warehouse and Customer Service Teams monitor them, but the delays are world-wide and beyond our control.
Thank you for your patience and patronage. Adventures Ahead!
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Thanks for that, Aaron!
It's good to read that the errata process is being looked at. I absolutely get that it's basically not making you any money and has to be a low priority. As such, you guys trying to improve upon the current situation is commendable.
But I still think it's weird that the APG errata is being held back. The book has been out of stock for quite some time late last year so there should be no risk of shipping an old printing to anyone.
Ah well, it's not like venting about it will speed things up, frustrating as it may be.
Keep up the good work, paizo! (And you in particular, Aaron! :-) )
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Thank you, kindly. I tend to focus on the Product Pages over these General Discussion pages.
This is an evolving topic internally.
We hold most changes until reprints, unless they are “critical”, and the change is needed to prevent a truly bad play experience. We have had, fortunately, very few of these over the years.
Currently, Paizo's errata system is driven by reprints of physical product. Errors are gathered over time. When it is clear that an evergreen product, like a book or accessory, is going to run out of stock the product it updated and the errata is generated by the editorial team. This is sent to the printer and to licensed partners such at Demiplane, Herolab, and the VTT partners. The Editorial Team works with the Web Team to update the FAQ's page only when the warehouse has received to the updated product and it ready to start shipping it. (We are waiting for such a green light for the APG and several other recently reprinted products now. Yes, sometimes the FAQ's have released early, but that is not SOP at the moment.) This way customers are not frustrated when they buy a product from us that is not current. We can't control what is sold through the rest of the distribution chain, of course.
There is not *currently* is an internal workflow to post Adventure Path errata, unless they are critical, because APs are not evergreen products. Our goal is to sell out of them. Most will not be reprinted. They are more like magazines in that Paizo does not keep them in stock.
Our Directors are revisiting the errata process as a whole and contemplating ways to standardize updates in predictable ways. There are many moving parts and participants in this process. Errata can be a huge time-sink and disruptive to the process of creating new products. We do not have a timeline to announce, but we do understand the importance of creating a process you can rely on and not constantly be looking to see if the games you love are still the same.
That said, when there are PDF or digital product...
Appreciate the update, in one of Luis's Lost Omens check ins I suggested the possibility of moving the players options (feats and archetypes and spells, specifically more than backgrounds, which mostly adhere to a simple formula anyway, or monsters which don't have the same implications) usually present in AP back matter to Lost Omens material instead and this insight actually makes me feel more confident about the feedback I gave in that thread. Specifically because Lost Omens books get new printings and therefore errata, which means that they give Paizo a better avenue for retaining quality control over player options and game balance. Because they are evergreen in a way that AP back matter are not, they are a better avenue for the kind of material that players prefer to collect. Since Paizo is already devoting Designer Team man hours to doing passes on the AP back matter material, the transfer would allow Lost Omens books to have stronger mechanical hooks (it would increase their mechanical support by like a dozen feats in some cases, and a few spells per AP volume) while also reinforcing the cross promotional strategy we see with things like Strength of Thousands and Mwangi Expanse's cohesive presentation, without actually increasing the workload. I can't imagine AP volumes are really being sold on player options content, and they have a strong sales hook of their own simply as the content many players use their cool player options to experience. Right now, AP backmatter are the only player options I don't pay you for, due to them being strapped to APs I'm not interested in (I'm just a homebrew DM, I like worldbuilding, its me not you.)
I hope this feedback doesn't add to the stress, but in terms of the evolution you guys are discussing, I think it could help to maximize customer engagement with as many products as possible.
I think the ideal state in the future would be to be able to put the fixed version of whatever it is, once it's had a pass through the people who need to sign off on these things, on the official PRD at the Archives of Nethys.
There is a page on there for every printed book (For Example) so putting "pending errata" on there would be helpful.
Like it's clear that Heaven's Thunder is way too good. All I'd like from Paizo is some baseline for "what would a reasonable version of this ability look like" (e.g. "replace and with or".)
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In software development, it is well known that fixes to existing product is more important than developing new product. But even in software it is hard to sell that to management because fixes don't make money directly. It is incredibly hard to assign a monetary value to the potential loss of brand quality, so it often gets assigned a value of zero. But the costs of developer time is easy to calculate.
But with publishing hard-copy books, that ends up being a different beast entirely than in the case of software - which has been almost entirely digital-copy-only for a couple of decades now. I can definitely see how it would be unwanted to be trying to sell a book that is already outdated while still sitting unsold on the store shelf or in a shipping warehouse.
It is a tough problem to solve.