Grab, Large Creature and Charge


Rules Questions


So a player charges a Large creature that has 10 foot Reach and the Grab ability.
Before the player can make his attack (assumes player has 5 foot reach), the creature gets an AoO and hits. Because of Grab, it gets a free Grapple check and lands the Grapple check. So both the player and creature are now grappled and the player is pulled adjacent to the creature, via the Grapple rules.

1. Does the player still get to complete his charge attack?
2. If the player was using a 2H weapon, does he still get to attack with that weapon, even though he is grappled?
3. If the player DOESN'T get to finish the attack with a 2H weapon, can he drop the weapon and attack with another readied weapon (Spiked Gauntlet, for example)?

Obviously, this has come up several times at our table...honestly, it comes up almost every night and we can't seem to find a consensus is to what the exact right ruling is. So thanks for any clarification!


1. no
2. no
3. no

reasons:

so.. a charge must end in the closest place the attacker can attack from (which in why a reach weapon would be a good idea for charging large creatures). the attacker need to charge all the way to the closest attacking spot. since the target pulled the charger the last 5 ft he didn't actually charge to the place he need to attack from.
and since a charge is a full round action (normally, beside partial charge) the attacker that lost his charge action is left with no action and grapple condition.

btw, one can do something similar by reading to 5 ft step sideways from a charging attacker once he gets close enough. since charging normally must be done in a straight line moving sideways prevent the attacker from getting to a place he can attack with his straight line charge.
hack, since reading can be done with standard and 5 ft, one can ready to attack the charger once he get close enough AND 5 ft step side-ways...(and if you had a brace weapon he could ready to brace with that to do double damage AND 5 ft side step to negate the charge attack\s)
-this is actually what bull-fighters in the arena try to do. (or act as if they try to do)


That seems pretty definitive...any source you can reference for these three "no"s? :) Just know my players will want more than one person's opinion, without some kind of reference to back it up.

Also...what if the attacker had Pounce? Any difference?


Rules from the core book. Combat section. Special attacks. Charge:

"Charging is a special full-round action.. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack..and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.(edited by me. You must move there. Not be moved . if some1 teleport you the last 5 ft its the same - the charging movement was broken).. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement..you can’t charge.(edited by me. If there was a trap that blocked movement or slow it's easy to see that the charge fail. Grapple move him close and prevent movement. Its no less slowing and blocking movement)..

Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack.( edited by me. Last bit. You get to attack after you finish the movement. But you never moved by yourself to the space you needed to attack from. You moved up to 10 ft away then your movement ended. That is when your attack was meant to happen. You cant attack after being moved. Its not part of a charge)..."

Notice also the breaking of the charge. The attacker was supposed to move and then attack right after. But what happened was he moved. Was attacked, hit and probably took damage . then he was grabbed and grappled. And being grappled was dragged the last 5 ft closer. Now he want to continue his action of attacking right after moving? A lot happened between the move and attack to consider it attacking after moving. And again the last 5 foot wasn't charging but being dragged.
his charge movement ended 10 ft away.then a lot of stuff happened and in the end he was dragged closer. He is not charging any1 at this point.

---

consider also that this was part of an attack of opportunity. which mean that after resolving it the one provoking should try and continue his action.
so if it was a charge against some1 with a reach weapon, he'd charge, provoke, maybe get hit maybe not, then after resolving that he can continue his charge action if he can. so if let's say, the attack of opportunity had also tripped him, he can't continue his charge and end his turn, right?

now what we have is his starting to charge. get to 10 feet away. still need to move 5 more ft and attack. then provoking, getting hit,grabbed,grappled and dragged. ok now he need to continue his action.(move 5 more ft and attack)
2 problems:
1. grappled creatures can't perform a charge action (nor move without winning a grapple or escaping it etc).
and also
2.he can not move that 5 ft anymore since he's already at the space he is trying to move to.

ether way his charge action (which again has "tight restrictions") is broken. and as a full round action he is left with no more action to attack with.

---

Pounce doesn't matter, pounce just let you attack more when you perform a charge. the charge was broken so its stopped. No matter if attacking is 1 or many attacks you never got to finish the charge.his charge movement ended 10 ft away.then a lot of stuff happened and in the end he was dragged closer. Now he can't continue his charge and is not charging any1 at this point.


All good points...any contradicting opinions out there?


zza ni is on point here, but I'll pile on anyway.

1. Does the player still get to complete his charge attack?

No, his charge has been interrupted with an AoO that grabs/grapples/drags him. The PC charges (full-round), the charge provokes an AoO, the AoO interrupts the charge because the PC is grabbed/grappled/dragged, and his turn is over (but the PC still has a Swift Action, if he wants).

2. If the player was using a 2H weapon, does he still get to attack with that weapon, even though he is grappled?

You can't make attacks with 2h weapons while grappled, but you can make attacks with 1handed weapons (such as a spiked gauntlet). However, in this case, the PC's turn is essentially over as soon as his charge gets interrupted by being grabbed/grappled/dragged. The only thing the PC could do at this point would be to use a Swift Action, so if he has a feat or a class ability that allows him to make an Attack using a Swift Action (like Hurtful or Spiked Destroyer), then it *could* be possible.

3. If the player DOESN'T get to finish the attack with a 2H weapon, can he drop the weapon and attack with another readied weapon (Spiked Gauntlet, for example)?

No, but also maybe, because it's possible to attack with a readied weapon with a Swift Action if you have a feat/class ability that operates like Hurtful or Spiked Destroyer. So this is a big maybe.

An argument could be made by the PC that since the charge was interrupted during the Movement-portion of the charge (and not the Attack-portion of the charge), that the PC should be able to get 1 attack with a one-handed weapon (such as a spiked gauntlet) while grappled, and I would probably allow something like that. But, the GM is under no obligation rules-wise to allow this.


I'd like to interject here because there has been a misapplication of the rules, one that MANY people overlook.

The universal monster ability "Grab" does not allow a FREE grapple attempt after hitting with an attack. It specifically "attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity." (Emphasis mine). Free actions can only occur on that creature's turn, not as part of an attack of opportunity.

So, unless that creature specifically has an action readied (or the ability) to initiate a grapple check as an immediate action, there is no 'grapple in the middle of a charge' issue to deal with. Just to be thorough, if the creature DOES possess such an ability, I am in total agreement with what zza ni has stated.


Agreed with the other posters.

1. no
2. no
3. no

A charge is very easily interrupted.

===

DeathlessOne wrote:
I'd like to interject here because there has been a misapplication of the rules, one that MANY people overlook.

There's a FAQ for that.

"Free Actions: Can you take free actions during an attack of opportunity? For instance, can you use the Grab, Trip, Pull, or Push universal monster rules after hitting with an attack of opportunity, since they require free actions and free actions can’t be used off-turn? What about Rock Catching? That seems like it could only work off-turn.
While you can’t take most free actions off your turn, Grab, Trip, Pull, Push, and Rock Catching’s free actions can all be used off-turn. This will be reflected in future errata.
"


Wonderstell wrote:

There's a FAQ for that.

"Free Actions: Can you take free actions during an attack of opportunity? For instance, can you use the Grab, Trip, Pull, or Push universal monster rules after hitting with an attack of opportunity, since they require free actions and free actions can’t be used off-turn? What about Rock Catching? That seems like it could only work off-turn.
While you can’t take most free actions off your turn, Grab, Trip, Pull, Push, and Rock Catching’s free actions can all be used off-turn. This will be reflected in future errata.
"

This is concerning. None of that has made it to the Archives of Nethys for reference (its been 8 years, sheesh). I can see that Rock Catching has language that allows for such an action to occur as part of their reflex save (hence, it doesn't need a FAQ to address it), but the others make no reference.

So, I'll defer to the FAQ as the authority on the matter and completely ignore that FAQ in my own games. I do this with FAQs that completely throw off established mechanics and create issues like what the OP is experiencing.

But, I will offer how I would address it at the table. The monster is attempting to hit/grapple the character, and thus has an appendage within reach for the character strike, even if they haven't completed their full charge. I'd allow them to follow through and deliver their ONE attack (no pounce, unless they are using light weapons/weapons usable in a grapple).


oh this is all if we by the rules.

personally, for rule of cool, i would allow the player to do this if he want to risk it:

when he provoke the aoo he can let the attack hit him and not resist the grapple basically adding his momentum to the grapple drag. if he would do this i would consider the drag part of his planed charge and let him hit the monster.

this can be a daring action to hit a big flying tentacle monster that he can't reach normally - charge it and ride the pulling tentacle to hit the body. or if his movement end just out of reach to hit, but would still provoke.

-'you'll never reach it!
-'nah, it's all part of the plan'


DeathlessOne wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:

There's a FAQ for that.

"Free Actions: Can you take free actions during an attack of opportunity? For instance, can you use the Grab, Trip, Pull, or Push universal monster rules after hitting with an attack of opportunity, since they require free actions and free actions can’t be used off-turn? What about Rock Catching? That seems like it could only work off-turn.
While you can’t take most free actions off your turn, Grab, Trip, Pull, Push, and Rock Catching’s free actions can all be used off-turn. This will be reflected in future errata.
"

This is concerning. None of that has made it to the Archives of Nethys for reference (its been 8 years, sheesh). I can see that Rock Catching has language that allows for such an action to occur as part of their reflex save (hence, it doesn't need a FAQ to address it), but the others make no reference.

So, I'll defer to the FAQ as the authority on the matter and completely ignore that FAQ in my own games. I do this with FAQs that completely throw off established mechanics and create issues like what the OP is experiencing.

But, I will offer how I would address it at the table. The monster is attempting to hit/grapple the character, and thus has an appendage within reach for the character strike, even if they haven't completed their full charge. I'd allow them to follow through and deliver their ONE attack (no pounce, unless they are using light weapons/weapons usable in a grapple).

Part of the reason the SRD is still a superior source for rules, aside from its better site layout, not requiring you to load a very detailed picture of Nethys before you can do anything, and also containing 3pp with mostly good flagposting for Piazo vs said 3pp.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
Part of the reason the SRD is still a superior source for rules, aside from its better site layout, not requiring you to load a very detailed picture of Nethys before you can do anything, and also containing 3pp with mostly good flagposting for Piazo vs said 3pp.

Strongly disagree, especially since the errata to Grab from the FAQ (for example) has not been added to the universal monster description (its in the same state as AoN). More anecdotally, it is a constant issue having to correct players about the source of their material (especially with the 3rd party content). For 1st party and PFS specific material, I find AoN the superior option.

But none of that really matters in the rules discussion. I only commented because you chose to make it an issue.


Debatably, you don't need that FAQ, as Attacks of Opportunity are already listed as a free actions. Also, "You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally." So if taking an attack of opportunity is already a free action allowed off turn, and you can take a free action with your action, then the grab is technically already RAW, it just isn't immediately obvious.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
Debatably, you don't need that FAQ, as Attacks of Opportunity are already listed as a free actions. Also, "You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally." So if taking an attack of opportunity is already a free action allowed off turn, and you can take a free action with your action, then the grab is technically already RAW, it just isn't immediately obvious.

Going to need a rules citation on that. Attack of opportunities are listed as free attacks, not free actions.

Attacks of Opportunity wrote:
Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity. See the Attacks of Opportunity diagram for an example of how they work.

From what I can see (and I'm fairly experienced with the rule), there is no such mention of attacks of opportunity being a free action outside of the said FAQ we are discussing, and its been eight years since said FAQ was published with no actual errata making it to any source material in the time since.


On the read inside cover of Melee Tactics Toolbox, we have a chart of attack options and action costs, and Attack of Opportunity is listed as "Free Action."

So granted, that came out after the FAQ, but still.


So, the single reference to attacks of opportunity being a 'free action' is inside the rear cover, in a table, of a splat book released in march 2015 and yet, that information has not yet made it to any of the online rules reference sites?

Interesting. I'm not saying it isn't there. I don't own that particular book to verify and I'm not about to purchase it for the sole reason to verify. From where I am standing, the rule is garbage and creates too many inconsistencies to even be bothered to acknowledge its impact on the game. In short, I feel justified in ignoring it entirely, just like I did back when Paizo allowed for spell-like abilities to qualify characters for entry into prestige classes that required spellcasting.

Oh, well. Just one more houserule to throw down just in case it ever gets brought up in my games. But, we play with revised action economy from the Unchained Book. AoO's are reactions there, so the issue is non-existent.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Grab, Large Creature and Charge All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.