I'll be playing a magus in an upcoming game soon (man have I been WAITING for this!). I'd finally settled on Sparkling Targe, then I started browsing my books, and the core book managed to remind me of the human ancestry feat multitalented. This had led to my current conundrum.
Take wizard dedication at level 2: early access to one more skill, four cantrips for my spellbook and being able to prepare 7 cantrips! Basic wizard spell-casting at level 8 (there are other feats I want at levels 4 and 6 first)
Take wizard dedication at level 9: several levels later on the aforementioned perks, and basic wizard spell-casting delayed to 10 or 12 (haven't decided which). But I'd use that freed up feats for force fang to get 2 focus points for conflux spell usage, and standby spell which seems to free up space to prepare more than just striking spells.
Any thoughts?
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I'd wait till level 9.
It depends on the build but for a good number of buids I've cooked up, most human ancestry feats aren't all that great. Getting at least use out of Multitalented is always a big plus in my book.
Spellcasting archetypes aren't that great early on. More cantrips are always nice, but in the end, you already get 5 of them, which will usually be enough to cover your bases. Even more so if you happen to have additional casters in the party to cover stuff like Detect Magic.
You could also get the Cantrip Expansion at level 2 (and later retrain if possible/necessary) if you want those cantrips badly. Or even get Witch Dedication at level 2 for one extra cantrip + familiar. That would also allow you to get some hexes if you want to. Life Boost is always nice.
Thanks for the input thus far!
Damage-type coverage has been my primary concern for cantrips. I went ahead and grabbed Produce Flame, Ray of Frost, and Gouging Claw for my offensive ones. Given my character is starting out in a sleepy village though I largely favored utility cantrips. Guess I could just learn the others later through learn a spell.
Have to admit I hadn't thought about grabbing a second dedication, which multitalented would definitely allow for; though admittedly not sure if it fits my initial role-playing vision for them. Still it's worth considering depending on how the game plays out.
Though it has to be said that by lvl 4 you could also get basic spell casting to get an extra true strike x day.
Noted though I can't see myself giving up Emergency Targe at level 4 very easily.
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As others have mentioned, you'll likely have enough Cantrips to cover the main energy Weaknesses (fire & cold + slashing/piercing, hopefully on a blunt weapon!). If you want to get MCD Wizard, then might as well start early, 2nd-8th is a lot of playtime to skip out on it, and by 9th it's added value for your PC's career is less (though still worth an Ancestry feat!).
That's somewhat assuming you don't have a better choice, which as HumbleGamer pointed out, is likely found in Bastion (though I disagree that you're tanky, but rather think you'd be catching up to regular martials.) Your Hybrid Study buffs your shield and Bastion would multiply how much/how well you could use that shield, so there's good synergy. And the Magus has a tough time w/ action economy, trying to actually have a spare action to Raise Shield. So Reactive Shield is a great feat for Sparkling Targe.
Trouble is, if you do get Wizard at 9th, there's not much room to get Basic Spellcasting. Quick Shield Block and Dazzling Block are far better, plus Conflux Focus at 12th is valuable for many builds (depending on whether you're picking up more Focus spells to increase your pool and future feats). So if Basic Spellcasting's your goal...
Does it serve a specific use, or just seem like a nice addition? Giving up an 8th level feat for it makes me suspect there might be more to this.
Also, the party should be able to aid w/ utility Cantrips since they need fewer to operate their main offense.
And around 9th, elemental Runes will come into play which will lessen your need for the corresponding Cantrip.
Augh... why you all gotta add more conundrums? lol. jk, it's worthy advice. While I admit emergency targe's ability to be triggered on enemy spells, and cast the shield spell in a pinch, still appeals to me, I can't deny that bastion would otherwise take nothing away from the build.
Trouble is, if you do get Wizard at 9th, there's not much room to get Basic Spellcasting. Quick Shield Block and Dazzling Block are far better, plus Conflux Focus at 12th is valuable for many builds (depending on whether you're picking up more Focus spells to increase your pool and future feats). So if Basic Spellcasting's your goal...
Does it serve a specific use, or just seem like a nice addition? Giving up an 8th level feat for it makes me suspect there might be more to this.
Maybe "goal" isn't the right word for it. More that very few of the 8th level magus feats really appealed to me. Plus having some low-level slots available for things like true-strike or a movement-based utility spell seems like great things to have for a magus. Though I guess all of that's a point in favor of taking wizard dedication earlier?
Hm... maybe emergency targe at 4 and retrain out of it after taking bastion at 9 with multitalented?
Multitalented can't be used to get archetypes.
Just dedications.
*Facepalms* Ugh... right...
Okay so right now looking at either...
Option A
02nd: Bastion Dedication
04th: Force Fang
06th: Attack of Opportunity
08th: Nimble Shield
09th: Multitalented - Wizard Dedication
10th: Quick Block
12th: Dazzling Block
Option B
02nd: Wizard Dedication
04th: Emergency Targe
06th: Attack of Opportunity
08th: Basic Wizard Spellcasting
09th: ???
10th: Dazzling Block
12th: Expert Wizard Spellcasting
Option A going all-in on the shield's AC and hardness.
Option B leaving the shield (almost) entirely for its circumstance bonus but opening up spell slots for additional utility.
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The Bastion looks much stronger IMO, w/ the Wizard path eventually bypassing it in terms of utility, though for emergencies items (or allies) could fill in if needed. The Bastion's constant blocking will grow more valuable, and since my main worry w/ the Magus is its fragility & action-budget (both of which the Dedication addresses) I'd have to vote that direction. Note this is white room speculating and the party's composition and default strategies will impact too, but moreover will be your sense of fun.
I don't want to get into the minutiae, but...
-Not a fan of Force Fang except maybe to plump up the Focus Pool for a better Focus Spell and when coupled w/ Conflux Focus. (As in unless pursuing a Focus Spell route; which is a valid third path!)
-Attack of Opportunity doesn't have much synergy with the build w/o Reach, and (w/ Bastion) if you're planning on using your Reaction to block (which you kind of must given low h.p. and medium defenses) or to Raise Shield in the first place. Even w/ Quick Block, it'll often be best to use your normal Reaction to Raise Shield and the bonus one to Shield Block.
(w/ Wizard MCD) And in this case it's interfering with taking Breadth, which is pretty key if investing into the other MCD casting feats (assuming you're playing into the highest levels where those pay off).
-I don't see the appeal of Nimble Shield vs. Shielded Stride or Shield Warden. Is it because you want to use a scroll to start combat? Because it's unlikely you'll have enough actions to draw scrolls except for emergencies.
-I wouldn't worry about the 9th level slot if playing from 1st on, since you'll have plenty of time to consider which Cantrips/classes you might like. Though if a Half-Elf it'd be funny to pick up Champion and Shield Ally, maybe even Quick Block (not that I'm recommending this).
Well guess the question at this point is "Do I want quick shield block or a better magic toolbox?" Either way, seems multitalented isn't an important part of that equation anymore.
EDIT: I take your point on AoO. I honestly think it's awesome with or without reach, but you're right that no matter my build my reaction is better spent on my shield.
Well guess the question at this point is "Do I want quick shield block or a better magic toolbox?" Either way, seems multitalented isn't an important part of that equation anymore.
EDIT: I take your point on AoO. I honestly think it's awesome with or without reach, but you're right that no matter my build my reaction is better spent on my shield.
Yeah, it's the combination of not having Reach and already having an excellent alternate Reaction (especially when Dazzling Shield kicks in) that lessens AoO, which would still be a fine feat except it's interfering w/ others.
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...
I would ask yourself which cantrips you want, and why. Are they cantrips you can get from other sources, like a spellheart or perhaps the Ring of Minor Arcana?
...
I'll just drop this link here. ;)
I'll just drop this link here. ;)
Now if only you could link me to a Magus guide besides "Spell and Steel." ;)
NOTE: If the author of said guide reads this, I'm sorry, but that guide needs a lot more love than it has.
On another note, leaning a bit more towards bastion. No idea how this campaign will play out or what the others are playing yet but if nothing else there are magic items available for the lower level spell slots.
Eh... at this point the level 4, 6, and 8 feats are probably going to be more based on how this game plays out. I'd like one or two of the conflux spells, even if only for the extra focus point to use on Shielding Strike, but looking at the options for those levels I could see some feats being more useful depending on how the game/group plays out.
As for Striker's Scroll that definitely seems like something more along the lines of "depends on if I'm acquiring enough scrolls to justify this feat."
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Low level scrolls are quite cheap and allow you to spell strike more often.
Low level scroll also contain low-level spells which will often be out-damaged by on-level cantrips.
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A level 2 scroll is not something I'd concider "low level" at character level 4. You get 50 gp between level 4 and 5. 12 gp is a pretty substential chunk of money at that point.
And it still costs you a feat, of course. I'd probably not get spell Striker unless I support it with the Spell Trickster Archetype. Makes scrolls still low level, but at least they are free.
Of course at that point it's much more efficient to pick up an actual spellcasting archetype if all you want to get is more spell strikes.
I remembered something rather important to my initial concept. While I didn't have the gold to afford it at level 1 I was planning to pick up a bastard sword so I could "switch hit" so to speak, going sword & board or two-handed with the shield cantrip.
So with that in mind bastion doesn't appear entirely synergistic since reflexive shield doesn't work with the shield cantrip. So instead I was thinking maybe something like...
02nd: Expansive Spellstrike
04th: Emergency Targe
06th: Cascade Countermeasure
08th: Runic Impression
10th: Dazzling Block
12th: Conflux Focus
14th: Arcane Shroud
16th: Dispelling Spellstrike
18th: Conflux Wellspring
20th: Supreme Spellstrike
Again, this is all white-room before actual play comes in and maybe makes other feats seem more appealing, but the idea here is that I'll have the conflux spells/focus points to use shielding strike as often as needed. As well as Emergency Targe to ensure the shield gets used.
Not going to achieve the ease of damage reduction that bastion's quick shield block would give me I'll admit, but there won't be an AC difference most of the time, and anytime I do two-hand for slightly less AC I'll be hitting harder in turn.
That's the theory anyway. The idea sounds like a lot of fun to me but I do still feel I ought to ask... is this a horrendous idea that I shouldn't even attempt?
That changes things... :-P
Not sure why you couldn't afford it though.
First check w/ your GM re: equipping/stowing shields since there's been some disagreement on the boards. If he interprets it as taking two actions (draw/equip or unequip/stow, then that'll just kill this strategy for a Magus (though I'd still recommend it for other martials, like for when their shield gets broken).
My vote remains w/ Bastion anyway simply because I see defense as the biggest problem for a Magus. They have the vulnerability of a skirmisher, yet lack the actions to skirmish! If you have a Champion & dedicated healer (i.e. Cleric/Divine Sorcerer) in the group, then go all out on offense and it's all good (or if the campaign's low-key/easy like PFS), but for a standard AP (and more so for the tougher ones) then Bastion.
That said, I have a preference for bastard swords myself and the flexibility of adjusting to different battles, if you think your PC will be able to make those adjustments on the fly that is. The Shield Cantrip (at +1 vs. +2) means your opponents will average about + x1/6 more damage (if not blocking, which would require you to pull out the shield anyway).
That changes things... :-P
Not sure why you couldn't afford it though.First check w/ your GM re: equipping/stowing shields since there's been some disagreement on the boards. If he interprets it as taking two actions (draw/equip or unequip/stow, then that'll just kill this strategy for a Magus (though I'd still recommend it for other martials, like for when their shield gets broken).
The repair kit (2 gp), the writing set for spells (1 gp), the chain mail was the most expensive bit at 6 gp. Steel Shield was 2 gp, adventurer's pack (1.5 gp). Yeah... the bastard sword was 4 gp so I was short by the time I got there. *sobs*
I admit I haven't seen that particular debate but that seems a bit of a silly one to me. Drawing a weapon takes one action and you are by default considered gripping it properly when you do even if logically said weapon would be a bit cumbersome to do so with. I can't say that I see how that's different for a shield. But yeah I'll run it by the GM.
EDIT: While Quick Shield Block is REALLY good, and it absolutely would make a huge impact, it's not as though I'll lack the ability to shield block. I'll just have to be more careful about how I spend my actions as a fight unfolds. Though it's not like I'd get it before those freakin' [omitted for spoilers] in that fort in Book 1 of Age of Ashes! (No I'm not bitter, why do you ask? =P ) No idea what to expect from this game though, it's the GM's custom campaign.
It's different for a shield from a weapon because there's a listed action for strapping one on. Some say this only applies to bucklers (which do need this extra action if you want to have the option of a free hand).
I interpret strapping as optional (and so do some others; partly informed by language in the Viking Dedication); you can strap either type of shield if you want, which will keep you from dropping it OR you can use it by holding it which allows for swapping/dropping/stowing quicker (and nixes the buckler's benefit re: free hand). Historical verisimilitude helps little here, as it's a matter of free hand/AC +1/+2 balance, not realism.
Oh! Wow! I just now saw where the rulebook talked about strapping shields! Okay that may change a few things!
Maybe... I still like this switch-hitter idea... I'll need to ponder if I think I can compensate.
EDIT: Hm... okay yeah I think this is overall a GM question. Not every shield came with straps. Hmmm...
It's not to hard to imagine encounters w/ different ranges and types/strengths of opponents (perhaps w/ Reach) to get an idea of how the Magus's many options play out. It's complex balancing getting in a Strike every round + a defensive action all while charging/recharging/moving. IMO it's often better to power up and forego a Strike than to put oneself in a precarious situation or cast a Cantrip directly (unless w/ a high Int). Adding switch-hitting to that, well, try some thought experiments beforehand.
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Being a switch hitter with the sparkling targe hybrid study might not be IMO the best idea ever.
...
Back to the switch hitter, I'd probably go with a fighter. Being a magus you'll be tied to the spellstrike mechanics.
This doesn't meant you'll spellstrike every single round, but you'd like to do anything in your power to do so (as well as using true strike to make it hit/critical more often).Or even better, try to simulate some white room to deal with your character skills, perks and mostly, its action economy.
You have to see yourself why it might not be convenient to designate a sword and board user as a switch hitter.
So I did a few sample 1v1's against some equal level creatures. I'm still going to switch-hit, but only as a fallback for if the main shield breaks and she has to have a hand free anyways, may as well get something out of it.
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Among all the characters I want to play, there's a switch-hitter Sparkling Targe Magus with a Bastard Sword. Sparkling Targe supports 2-handers with the Shield Cantrip. But as you can only block once with Shield, it's nice to have a shield as a backup. It's in my opinion a very valid build.
lol, just when I thought I was done. So session zero just happened and it seems we're predominantly martial with my character being the only one with any spell-casting (thank god I talked someone into taking the medicine skill). So I while I am prepared to switch classes if something goes horribly awry, I'm still interested in seeing how this goes; thus it looks like I might have to favor "magical toolbox" going forward.
So with that in mind... how does... this look?
02nd: Wizard Dedication
04th: Emergency Targe
06th: Basic Wizard Spellcasting
08th: Arcane Breadth
10th: Dazzling Block
12th: Expert Wizard Spellcasting
14th: Arcane Shroud
16th: Dispelling Spellstrike
18th: Master Wizard Spellcasting
20th: Supreme Spellstrike
Truth told I'm going to sorely miss having a lot of focus points "just in case" but such is the pain of leveling up, you can't have it all. So again, thoughts?
Martial has a whole lot of breadth to it, and in some parties it'll be more important for you to have Bastion (i.e. few in-combat healing options, lower AC martials like Rangers & Barbarians getting wrecked) while other parties (i.e. w/ a Champion, shield Fighter, and a Rogue w/ Medic Dedication (combined)) will cover damage mitigation/in-combat healing enough for you to branch out for such magical utility. Or it could be a bunch of skirmishers making it hard for enemies to focus fire. And so on.
PF2, unlike most DnD offshoots, doesn't require casters as much as previous RPGs IF the PCs are built to cover all the bases, often w/ Trick Magic Item, multiple people w/ Battlefield Medicine (or even Medic Dedication), feats like Blind Fight, and good ranged attacks (preferably w/ some energy options, especially the kind that halt Regeneration). And, for example, a Ki Monk w/ Force Blast and a Dragon Barbarian together can cover AoE's quite well.
IMO the Wizard MCD barely addresses the issue, and then only at the highest levels when its slots plump up (for a Magus that is, since you already have access to Arcane items and some high level slots). The other players need to reconsider their builds too so everybody's helping, magicking up their builds, even if only via item use.
I think w/o Bastion you'll have less fun because a Magus is kinda fragile.