Pathfinder 2e: The Ultimate Wizard

[Temperans]

...
Familiar is a free bonus spell, which PF2 does not hand out very easily.

Widen Spell makes AoE spells more effective, even if it costs you an action to do it. More people getting hit by fireball is more people get hit by fireball.

Counterspell is more niche, but in a campaign with lots of enemy casters sometimes it's better to deny the enemy a spell than to cast your own.

*******************
I might not enjoy the current version of wizard as a class, but I still do know what makes for a good character. Trying to tank as a wizard in this edition is a literal meme. The game is just not built for it and you have to jump through too many hoops to still get easily crit into the boneyard.

Because you spent most of your feats trying to be tanky, it means you have less feats that synergize with the spells you might want to cast. Trying to go down a healer route while in combat, makes it even more difficult to cast spells: Not to mention that it forces you to be next to the ally taking damage. When most creatures have reach or AoE abilities trying to heal someone will cause the wizard to get hit. Remember the old adage "always target the healer" exists for a reason. Any smart enemy will kill the healer first if they are confident they can deal with the actual damage dealers.

It feels like you are playing with an incredibly generous GM. Given that you view the game as

Quote:

On a greater level, it's about going first and trying to end the encounter right there.

When all PF2 offensive spells are expected to fail more often than not.

[Vodalian]

The wizard, the way I see it, has a really bad class feats. And overall pf2e rewards diversification over focus. There are very few feats that give additive bonuses to any skills, spells or attacks.

This means that the strongest character build are often the ones that poach useful skills from archetypes for different situations. This I think is one of the best features of pf2e, allowing great customization without hurting your class' primary role.

A lot of people are saying wizards 'should stay in their lane' and pick more wizard feats which sounds sort of gatekeepy as well as bad advice in general.

[Temperans]

Vodalian wrote:

The wizard, the way I see it, has a really bad class feats. And overall pf2e rewards diversification over focus. There are very few feats that give additive bonuses to any skills, spells or attacks.

This means that the strongest character build are often the ones that poach useful skills from archetypes for different situations. This I think is one of the best features of pf2e, allowing great customization without hurting your class' primary role.

A lot of people are saying wizards 'should stay in their lane' and pick more wizard feats which sounds sort of gatekeepy as well as bad advice in general.

PF2 rewards not hyper specializing while also having a literal ton of niche protection. It is not gatekeeping to say that trying to make a tank wizard is trying to punch a boulder uphill. The game actively makes it hard to do, while minimizing the reward for doing so.

Also, there is a difference between building around something and getting some alternate options, and "tries to do 5 different builds simultaneously". Not even fighter can make 5 different builds simultaneously be coherent. PF2 rewards the former, and punishes the latter.

[Vodalian]

Temperans wrote:

PF2 rewards not hyper specializing while also having a literal ton of niche protection. It is not gatekeeping to say that trying to make a tank wizard is trying to punch a boulder uphill. The game actively makes it hard to do, while minimizing the reward for doing so.

Also, there is a difference between building around something and getting some alternate options, and "tries to do 5 different builds simultaneously". Not even fighter can make 5 different builds simultaneously be coherent. PF2 rewards the former, and punishes the latter.

I don't see being tanky as a 'role' or a build that someone tries to do, but something all party members need to optimize. Just today our party entered a small room to be immediately ambushed by a

monster spoiler:

void glutton. It cast darkness and turned invisible and went after our wizard since he cast glitterdust on it.

The wizard went down in a couple of attacks (2 crits if I remember correctly) and the party barely escaped with their lives. If he had been tankier and had been able to use battle medic the fight might have gone compeletely differently.

[Unicore]

I am not sure we have the same definition of "win."

A lot of the spells you seem very excited about require a failed save, or a successful attack by a summon of significantly lower level than the monsters you will be facing. Now I agree that summoning is a little underrated by many and there are a lot of great summons that complicate an encounter for an enemy, usually by making them waste actions attacking an annoying creature...but that is hardly instant win, and it is often not that critical that you go first in PF2. 1st turns are often about positioning and set up for both sides of the fight. Even better than using reach on the first round to strike an enemy out of your range, is to get an enemy to spend multiple actions moving towards you, then hit them, then use a one action spell like Jump to get to a location where they have to waste even more actions if they want to keep attacking you.

A really powerful combo that our party of three has used (1 wizard, 1 fighter and 1 flurry ranger) is to get enemies tangled up in solid fog with the fighter and the ranger, who both have very high movements and blind fight. Flying and invisibility alone are usually enough to keep 80 to 90% of enemies from ever attacking the wizard. And nothing destroys an enemy caster like taking away their ability to step away from a fighter's attack of opportunity. This tactic often works best when the wizard waits to cast the fog cloud until the monster has already wasted some actions moving, And widening the various fog spells gives the 2 martials a much bigger playground for being difficult to hit and controlling the battlefield.

Also, to be clear, I don't think every wizard feat is must have for every wizard. I think writing them all off because they do more subtle things than add numbers to spell damage (although there are several that do this), is a big mistake.

For example, you know what is better than Illusory object on your wizard build? Especially if you are wanting to be CHA based for some aid shenanigans that I think is probably the best of your 3rd action options? Is going deception instead of intimidation and using convincing illusion. It is one of the biggest math boosters in the spell casting game as far as almost doubling the probability of stealing multiple actions from an enemy with your illusions. This is a feat competing with Spell penetration and builds really really well with conceal spell and silent spell. At level 12, Forcible energy becomes another way that clever parties can stack tons of extra damage on an enemy by coordinating damage types. Especially when paired with a summoned monster that can do a specific damage type on a successful save, or with allies that can do lots of attacks in a round.

Again, I think the wizard is flexible enough to allow for one decent archetype split, but more than that and you are losing out on a lot of opportunities for making your spells do far more than any other caster is able to do with theirs.

[jinofcoolnes]

Temperans wrote:

...

Familiar is a free bonus spell, which PF2 does not hand out very easily.

Widen Spell makes AoE spells more effective, even if it costs you an action to do it. More people getting hit by fireball is more people get hit by fireball.

Counterspell is more niche, but in a campaign with lots of enemy casters sometimes it's better to deny the enemy a spell than to cast your own.

*******************
I might not enjoy the current version of wizard as a class, but I still do know what makes for a good character. Trying to tank as a wizard in this edition is a literal meme. The game is just not built for it and you have to jump through too many hoops to still get easily crit into the boneyard.

Because you spent most of your feats trying to be tanky, it means you have less feats that synergize with the spells you might want to cast. Trying to go down a healer route while in combat, makes it even more difficult to cast spells: Not to mention that it forces you to be next to the ally taking damage. When most creatures have reach or AoE abilities trying to heal someone will cause the wizard to get hit. Remember the old adage "always target the healer" exists for a reason. Any smart enemy will kill the healer first if they are confident they can deal with the actual damage dealers.

It feels like you are playing with an incredibly generous GM. Given that you view the game as

Quote:

On a greater level, it's about going first and trying to end the encounter right there.

When all PF2 offensive spells are expected to fail more often than not.

gotta check out the spell list!

[jinofcoolnes]

Unicore wrote:

I am not sure we have the same definition of "win."

A lot of the spells you seem very excited about require a failed save, or a successful attack by a summon of significantly lower level than the monsters you will be facing. Now I agree that summoning is a little underrated by many and there are a lot of great summons that complicate an encounter for an enemy, usually by making them waste actions attacking an annoying creature...but that is hardly instant win, and it is often not that critical that you go first in PF2. 1st turns are often about positioning and set up for both sides of the fight. Even better than using reach on the first round to strike an enemy out of your range, is to get an enemy to spend multiple actions moving towards you, then hit them, then use a one action spell like Jump to get to a location where they have to waste even more actions if they want to keep attacking you.

A really powerful combo that our party of three has used (1 wizard, 1 fighter and 1 flurry ranger) is to get enemies tangled up in solid fog with the fighter and the ranger, who both have very high movements and blind fight. Flying and invisibility alone are usually enough to keep 80 to 90% of enemies from ever attacking the wizard. And nothing destroys an enemy caster like taking away their ability to step away from a fighter's attack of opportunity. This tactic often works best when the wizard waits to cast the fog cloud until the monster has already wasted some actions moving, And widening the various fog spells gives the 2 martials a much bigger playground for being difficult to hit and controlling the battlefield.

Also, to be clear, I don't think every wizard feat is must have for every wizard. I think writing them all off because they do more subtle things than add numbers to spell damage (although there are several that do this), is a big mistake.

For example, you know what is better than Illusory object on your wizard build? Especially if you are wanting to be CHA based for some aid shenanigans...

I am not really sure there 3 monsters that rely on attacks, which are okay for a few levels before they scale out.

Tbh, I just don't think I really see concealed spell being impactful.

illusionary object despite being improved in this game still has consistency issues that are hard to make up for.

[Unicore]

I have a conjuration specialist wizard and I do a lot of summoning. I love the skunks for lower level. Dragons do alright at higher level too and you get a lot of freedom on damage types...but they don't win encounters, and sometimes it is worth delaying, even if you do win initiative to let the enemy close in so that you can summon them behind them, especially as those are three action spells, so there is no moving first or using reach.

I have another wizard (necromancer) who does get in close and uses a lot of spells like vampiric touch to do the healing and the damaging at the same time. The necromancer's level 1 focus spell is probably the strongest of all the wizard focus spells and paired with a true strike, it can make for an annoying situation in many encounters.

Conceal spell itself is not that amazing, except for RPing purposes of being able to cast spells around the peasants without them assuming you are possessed by a demon or trying to control their minds every time you want to detect magic or cast a buff spell on someone to help them with a skill check. but it is necessary to pick up silent spell which is phenomenally useful for a wizard that wants to be invisible or wants to buff the party before going into a new room without giving away that there is a party outside the door preparing to storm in. And it gets you building towards convincing illusion which pairs really, really effectively illusory creature which lets you really have free reign over damage types. A level 2 illusory creature still uses your spell attack modifier for its attacks, so later on, when you do have forcible energy, you are all set up to exploit it yourself, right alongside your party.

I think deception is secretly far more important a skill for spell casters generally, but especially wizards, and often gets undervalued. Most attempts to deceive someone with an illusion are going to end up requiring a deception skill check.

[The Raven Black]

It feels like this build plays into a vacuum, with no fellow PCs around (or they do not matter).

It completely misses the greatest strength of a party in PF2 : synergies.

[jinofcoolnes]

Unicore wrote:

I have a conjuration specialist wizard and I do a lot of summoning. I love the skunks for lower level. Dragons do alright at higher level too and you get a lot of freedom on damage types...but they don't win encounters, and sometimes it is worth delaying, even if you do win initiative to let the enemy close in so that you can summon them behind them, especially as those are three action spells, so there is no moving first or using reach.

I have another wizard (necromancer) who does get in close and uses a lot of spells like vampiric touch to do the healing and the damaging at the same time. The necromancer's level 1 focus spell is probably the strongest of all the wizard focus spells and paired with a true strike, it can make for an annoying situation in many encounters.

Conceal spell itself is not that amazing, except for RPing purposes of being able to cast spells around the peasants without them assuming you are possessed by a demon or trying to control their minds every time you want to detect magic or cast a buff spell on someone to help them with a skill check. but it is necessary to pick up silent spell which is phenomenally useful for a wizard that wants to be invisible or wants to buff the party before going into a new room without giving away that there is a party outside the door preparing to storm in. And it gets you building towards convincing illusion which pairs really, really effectively illusory creature which lets you really have free reign over damage types. A level 2 illusory creature still uses your spell attack modifier for its attacks, so later on, when you do have forcible energy, you are all set up to exploit it yourself, right alongside your party.

I think deception is secretly far more important a skill for spell casters generally, but especially wizards, and often gets undervalued. Most attempts to deceive someone with an illusion are going to end up requiring a deception skill check.

Granted at a high level his build doesn't use dragons it uses Empress Bore Worm, and bone croupier, which are based on their effect significantly more powerful than an average summon.

I wish illusion were amazing, but, I find DM often find ways to handwave illusions migrating their impact.

[jinofcoolnes]

The Raven Black wrote:

It feels like this build plays into a vacuum, with no fellow PCs around (or they do not matter).

It completely misses the greatest strength of a party in PF2 : synergies.

This statement is just confusing to me since this is just a wizard with a defensive stack on it. Are you saying wizards can't work on teams, or that meta magic is needed for wizards to be good in teams? I am not sure what makes this build less synergistic than other wizards just because it has the option to do other things, is one for all not synergistic either?

[Cyouni]

Vodalian wrote:

The wizard, the way I see it, has a really bad class feats. And overall pf2e rewards diversification over focus. There are very few feats that give additive bonuses to any skills, spells or attacks.

This means that the strongest character build are often the ones that poach useful skills from archetypes for different situations. This I think is one of the best features of pf2e, allowing great customization without hurting your class' primary role.

A lot of people are saying wizards 'should stay in their lane' and pick more wizard feats which sounds sort of gatekeepy as well as bad advice in general.

So let me give a different example.

Let's say you have a fighter that multiclasses into Bard, Cleric, and Wizard for low level spells. After all those multiclasses, at level 12 they only have a single level 1-3 slot from each of those, and have consumed all their class feats.

Despite the fact that they have a bit more versatility compared to a standard fighter, they've sacrificed all the power they can get from higher level class feats to pick up more low level spells. As such, this fighter is not very good as a fighter compared to a fighter that just took all fighter class feats.

That's the same thing with this wizard.

Edit: A more accurate example, now that I consider it, is a fighter that picked up Beastmaster, Medic, and Bard Dedications and no fighter class feats. They're all good dedications with good bonuses (full animal companion, Doctor's Visitation, Inspire Courage), but you're not taking advantage of anything the fighter does.

[Vodalian]

Cyouni wrote:

Vodalian wrote:

The wizard, the way I see it, has a really bad class feats. And overall pf2e rewards diversification over focus. There are very few feats that give additive bonuses to any skills, spells or attacks.

This means that the strongest character build are often the ones that poach useful skills from archetypes for different situations. This I think is one of the best features of pf2e, allowing great customization without hurting your class' primary role.

A lot of people are saying wizards 'should stay in their lane' and pick more wizard feats which sounds sort of gatekeepy as well as bad advice in general.

So let me give a different example.

Let's say you have a fighter that multiclasses into Bard, Cleric, and Wizard for low level spells. After all those multiclasses, at level 12 they only have a single level 1-3 slot from each of those, and have consumed all their class feats.

Despite the fact that they have a bit more versatility compared to a standard fighter, they've sacrificed all the power they can get from higher level class feats to pick up more low level spells. As such, this fighter is not very good as a fighter compared to a fighter that just took all fighter class feats.

That's the same thing with this wizard.

Edit: A more accurate example, now that I consider it, is a fighter that picked up Beastmaster, Medic, and Bard Dedications and no fighter class feats. They're all good dedications with good bonuses (full animal companion, Doctor's Visitation, Inspire Courage), but you're not taking advantage of anything the fighter does.

This is an interesting example, because a fighter needs nothing but double slice and combat reflexes (for extra attack of opportunity) to be the strongest dpr (or equal to giant barbarian in some instances) character in the game. If you want I can show the math for this. You can spend all of your other class feats on utility/spells/whatever. You already have heavy armor proficiency for max AC without DEX, so you can increase two mental attributes without worry. You don't even need twin parry, since the shield cantrip gives the same benefit with an additional shield block reaction (you might still want to take shield parry for twin riposte).

So you are already fulfilling the fighter's primary role (deal melee damage and frontline) to optimal efficiency while spending nothing but one level 2 class feat and one level 10 class feat.

[Unicore]

I get that the Bone Croupier's Change of luck feels very powerful, but it really doesn't result in many instant win situations either. It is a very low HP, Low AC creature for the time you get it, and, since it uses 3 of your actions to cast the summon, you are not getting another spell off before the enemy gets to go. What spell are you pairing this with to make you feel like winning initiative and surviving until the next round is an instant win?

[R3st8]

I can't understand why people are bring so negative your build looks great, using medicine to cover one of the main weaknesses of the arcane list and taking advantage of the fact spell don't fail if you wear and armor in this edition are great ideas and i will definitively be using Adopted Ancestry to get halfling luck in every build from now on, don't let people demoralize you since wizard feats aren't great some even consider it a feature that allows you to multi-class freely and you used it wisely

[SuperBidi]

I don't think there's any reason to get too heated. After all, it's a Wizard build that should only satisfy one person.
But I agree that the title is really misleading, even if I wasn't expecting someone to find an actual ultimate wizard build.

[Castilliano]

R3st8 wrote:

I can't understand why people are bring so negative your build looks great, using medicine to cover one of the main weaknesses of the arcane list and taking advantage of the fact spell don't fail if you wear and armor in this edition are great ideas and i will definitively be using Adopted Ancestry to get halfling luck in every build from now on, don't let people demoralize you since wizard feats aren't great some even consider it a feature that allows you to multi-class freely and you used it wisely

I don't think anybody's saying he hasn't achieved building a tough Wizard, who can and will contribute well. Many if not most of those being critical have also praised major portions of the build. But some of the language being tossed around, i.e. "extremely hard to kill", its combos will shut down enemies, or how the build's the ultimate or some other superlative. Those are what's being contradicted.

And there's how the OP's expressed goals could be better reached through other, simpler means (including other classes), or how there are glitches, i.e. using One for All (which took investment) hampers either shield use (which took investment) or wizarding (which the PC probably should be doing). That's just tweaking IMO.

Some criticisms do seem unfair, i.e. Medic seems mostly for self-preservation, not for front line rescue. It under-utilizes the Dedication, yet remains good for bouncing back from standard damage. Heck, I would not advertise being a Medic, what with the peer pressure it might spark to go rescue somebody in a dire position.

Let me toss in a bit of praise. I like how if the Wizard gets absolutely smashed and his shield destroyed, he can cast Shield twice, Stride, and Battlefield Medicine. With Bastion, he can block twice burning both of those Shields for a great buffer. (Which is to say I have zero qualms about how the build responds to Strikes if it doesn't move forward, but danger comes in many other forms too.)

[jinofcoolnes]

How do I delete this, I don't wish to be a part of this forum anymore. I gained nothing by being here.

[Unicore]

jinofcoolnes wrote:

How do I delete this, I don't wish to be a part of this forum anymore. I gained nothing by being here.

I am sorry you feel like this thread didn’t accomplish what you wanted. It probably would have been better to post this in the advice thread and show that you had found a wizard build that sounds fun to you, instead of posting in the PF2 general thread that you have found the ultimate wizard build. I hope you have fun with your character.

[Deriven Firelion]

Unicore wrote:

I get that the Bone Croupier's Change of luck feels very powerful, but it really doesn't result in many instant win situations either. It is a very low HP, Low AC creature for the time you get it, and, since it uses 3 of your actions to cast the summon, you are not getting another spell off before the enemy gets to go. What spell are you pairing this with to make you feel like winning initiative and surviving until the next round is an instant win?

It also takes four actions to enact. 3 actions to initially cast, then 1 action to sustain, then you get to cast your 2 action spell. That's a lot of set up in fast and furious fights I am used to for one failure on a spell, not even a critical failure at that.

It seems heavily over-rated and situational.

[Castilliano]

Seriously? People put several man-hours into helping Jin gain understanding, all for them to say they've gained nothing and are distraught enough to regret posting. Sorry for helping?
I too, Deriven, am baffled as to his expectations when posting a PC to critique, and yet dismissing most of said critique (which IMO was polite and objective). Oh well.

[Tonya Woldridge]

Moved post from General Discussion to Advice. Also removed a few posts that were personal attacks or baiting.

[Gortle]

Wizard build

This is a response to jinofcoolnes Pathfinder 2e: The Ultimate Wizard [removed]. My main feedback is that it was a good mechanical build but did not feel like a wizard. Its tough yes, but with some gaps in saving throws, really only the essential thing that was wizard in it was the class, school and thesis. So I'm going to keep some elements of his build. Doctors Visitation works really well as a wizard will often want to more away from melee and this give him a free treat wounds. I'm less keen on the sentinel feats - they work I just don't think they are needed. I prefer to invest in being a better wizard rather than a tank. This is how I would do it but with a focus on recall knowledge and counterspells not dabbling into Charisma. Basically my goal is to build a more wizardly wizard not a sorcerer like wizard. There is a lot more you could add here but I didn't want to overinvest in recall knowledge. Free archetype would help that a lot. This build has better initiative when using perception including the option of stealth which will often be higher and better saving throws than his. It also has a fall back option of both weapon and cantrip attacks - which I think is important early and for a spell blending wizard as they are much more likely to run out of spells.

I'm hoping for feedback. Is my first wizard build reasonable?

Heritage Ancient Elf Ranger
Ancestry Feats:
1 Elven Weapon Familiarity
5 Ancestral Longevity - because specific Lores are skills, so I will often have a relevant lore skill to help with Recall Knowledge
9 Expert Longevity
13 Universal Longevity
17 Nimble Elf

Background:
Field Medic (Medicine skill, Warfare Lore skill, Battle Medicine skill feat)

General Feats:
3 Armour Proficiency (retrain later to Toughness when it becomes irrelevant)
7 Incredible Initiative not Racial Paragon Elven Instincts, as I won't always be using perception for initiative
11 Fleet
15 Canny Acumen to cover that Reflex Save
19 Prescient Planner

Class Wizard
Arcane School Divination (though I'm tempted by Conjuration)
Arcane Thesis Spell Blending
Class Feats:
2 Counterspell
4 Basic Hunter's Trick => Monster Hunter
6 Basic Hunter's Trick => Monster Warden
8 Medic Dedication
10 Doctor's Visitation
12 Clever Counterspell
14 Effortless Concentration
16 Master Spotter (Ranger)
18 Superior Bond
20 Spell Mastery

Ability Scores Level 1:
Str-1 8
Dex+3 16
Con+2 14
Int+4 18
Wis+1 12
Cha-1 8 Using voluntary flaw because I underlining the lack of charisma, but this is optional

Ability Scores Level 20:
Str-1 10
Dex+5 20
Con+5 20
Int+6 22
Wis+1 18
Cha-1 10

Skills: (21) By level 20
Trained: Survival, Nature, Religion, Occult, Society
Expert: Undead Lore from Expert Longevity (will change to be relevant), Crafting
Master:
Legendary: Medicine, Stealth, Arcana

Skill Feats:
BG Battle Medicine
2 Continual Recovery
4 Dubious Knowledge
6 Treat Condition
8 Quick Recognition
10 Unmistakable Lore
12 Ward Medic
14 Foil Senses
16 Unified Theory
18 Trick Magic Item
20 Supertaster

Equipment:
Generic but would include a staff - more than happy to put away the bow while the staff has charges (it wasn't a big cost), and a ring of wizardry.

[jinofcoolnes]

honestly, I much prefer if this was deleted or locked than simply moved if that's okay. Perhaps if people want to discuss the build they can do it somewhere else, I just rather not be involved if that's okay?

[Castilliano]

jinofcoolnes wrote:

honestly, I much prefer if this was deleted or locked than simply moved if that's okay. Perhaps if people want to discuss the build they can do it somewhere else, I just rather not be involved if that's okay?

You can personally pseudo-delete it by pressing the "Hide" button, the circle with the slash through it. It's to the right of the title on the forum menu. Then you'll get your wish and not be involved.

I believe the commenters wanted to discuss the build to aid you in tuning the build and to understand your reasoning, so I doubt you'll see the discussion arise again. I'm sorry you feel you've gained nothing. I know I learned some things.
Cheers

[Cyouni]

Gortle wrote:

Heritage Ancient Elf Ranger

Ancestry Feats:
1 Elven Weapon Familiarity
5 Ancestral Longevity - because specific Lores are skills, so I will often have a relevant lore skill to help with Recall Knowledge
9 Expert Longevity
13 Universal Longevity
17 Nimble Elf

Background:
Field Medic (Medicine skill, Warfare Lore skill, Battle Medicine skill feat)

General Feats:
3 Armour Proficiency (retrain later to Toughness when it becomes irrelevant)
7 Incredible Initiative not Racial Paragon Elven Instincts, as I won't always be using perception for initiative
11 Fleet
15 Canny Acumen...

While I like the Ranger multiclass for the Monster Hunter feats, I'm not sure how often it'll come up when your only legendary skill for that is Arcana (though the changeable specific lore might help). Is it really worth burning the level 4 and 6 feats when you have to crit succeed?

[Unicore]

Ranger is an interesting choice. Additional Lore might be a worthwhile feat to take once or twice as well, since it scales up to legendary on its own.

[Gortle]

Cyouni wrote:

While I like the Ranger multiclass for the Monster Hunter feats, I'm not sure how often it'll come up when your only legendary skill for that is Arcana (though the changeable specific lore might help). Is it really worth burning the level 4 and 6 feats when you have to crit succeed?

Taking Loremaster would be possible for another skill. But the character does have all the base magic skills by default. I'm hoping the specific lore is really significant. To do it really well I think it needs free archetype, as I don't have any class feat I'm prepared to loose before level 18

[Brian Bauman]

Links to jinofcoolnes' personal blog and Google documents have been removed from this thread at their request.

[Ed Reppert]

<shrug> They didn't work anyway.