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So, looking into making a drifter gunslinger and I came across this problem:
So, Rules as Written: Unarmed attacks are NOT weapons. They may do things that weapons may do, like allowing you to strike, but according to the core rulebook p. 278:
Almost all characters start out trained in unarmed attacks. You can Strike with your fist or another body part, calculating your attack and damage rolls in the same way you would with a weapon. Unarmed attacks can belong to a weapon group (page 280), and they might have weapon traits (page 282). However, unarmed attacks aren’t weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifically say so.
Okay, fine, except, Handwraps of mighty blows complicates matters as it allows you to treat your handwraps as weapons 'for some situations.'
As you invest these embroidered strips of cloth, you must meditate and slowly wrap them around your hands. These handwraps have weapon runes etched into them to give your unarmed attacks the benefits of those runes, making your unarmed attacks work like magic weapons. For example, +1 striking handwraps of mighty blows would give you a +1 item bonus to attack rolls with your unarmed attacks and increase the damage of your unarmed attacks from one weapon die to two (normally 2d4 instead of 1d4, but if your fists have a different weapon damage die or you have other unarmed attacks, use two of that die size instead).
You can upgrade, add, and transfer runes to and from the handwraps just as you would for a weapon, and you can attach talismans to the handwraps. Treat the handwraps as melee weapons of the brawling group with light Bulk for these purposes. Property runes apply only when they would be applicable to the unarmed attack you’re using. For example, a property that must be applied to a slashing weapon wouldn’t function when you attacked with a fist, but you would gain its benefits if you attacked with a claw or some other slashing unarmed attack.
Now, Blazons of shared power only work on WEAPONS specifically, meaning they shouldn't work on handwraps . . . . maybe?
These brass emblems come in a variety of designs, usually customized to the purchaser to reflect the heraldry of a family or guild. Blazons of shared power come in sets of three. When you invest the blazons, you wear one of the three on your chest, and you attach the others to a pair of one-handed weapons, choosing one as the primary weapon and one as the secondary weapon. These weapons can be either melee weapons or ranged weapons. As long as you're wielding both the primary weapon and the secondary weapon, the secondary weapon gains the benefit of the fundamental runes on the primary weapon. A weapon can only have a single blazon of shared power attached to it at a time.
Okay, so the Drifter Gunslinger way clearly makes accommodations for gunslingers to make unarmed strikes along with one-handed gun/crossbow strikes. Question is, can I used blazons of shared power for my Crossbow and Handwraps? Seems RaW is no, as Blazons are not a 'talisman or a rune' and so the rule about handwraps not being weapons stands, but it seems like the intent is clearly there for me to be able to (or else the drifter is just terrible because, in addition to wading into melee combat as a ranged character you also have to buy both magical handwraps and a magical ranged weapon.)
Can I get a ruling on this? Was there some sort of Paizo Blog I missed that clears this up?
Oh, and to answer your questions of "Why care, just ask your GM," I'm planning on making this a PFS character so I need to make sure this character works across all table variations.
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RAW I think the case is slim. Partly for the reason you mentioned, it's technically not a "talisman or a rune", but more importantly it's most certainly not a "one-handed weapon".
RAI I have no idea, so I won't comment on it. Especially since this is the rules forums
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Note that, in my PFS experience, I rarely played beyond level 6. So, you only enjoy Striking for half your career. And by the time you can get it, you will soon be able to invest in a second one if need be.
And that is only if you play an empty-handed Drifter. IIRC, 1-handed melee weapon + 1-handed gun Drifter is quite feasible.
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"Treat the handwraps as melee weapons of the brawling group with light Bulk for these purposes."
What are those purposes?
"You can upgrade, add, and transfer runes to and from the handwraps just as you would for a weapon, and you can attach talismans to the handwraps."
That's it. Other than the above they are not weapons. Just because all the item does is transfer runes, which handwraps can have, doesn't mean you can attach the Blazons to them.
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I was going to suggest you could use Knuckle Dusters to simulate fighting unarmed, but they haven't got the Finesse trait. No fist weapons seem to other than Fists.
Yeah, I have been struggling to figure out how do do a drifter well. Because they can only reload with another object in their hand with their drifter's reload, it makes sense to use an unarmed strike or a free hand.
I was hoping for a hot second that you could attach a bayonett to a hand crossbow and cheese it by having your melee weapon and ranged weapon be the same thing, but the way the drifter abilities are worded, it seems you need to make a melee attack with your off hand. Not cheese it by having a free hand and having your melee attack and ranged attack being a hand crossbow.
So I'm just hoping I guess that Paizo staff sees this and makes an errata saying Blazons of power work with handwraps I guess . . .
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So I'm just hoping I guess that Paizo staff sees this and makes an errata saying Blazons of power work with handwraps I guess . . .
Don't hold your breath. Eratta has been pretty limited and even beyond that Paizo has been very harsh about unarmed combat in general. Given how timid they are about letting unarmed characters do much of anything, it's as likely this is on purpose as not.
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So I'm just hoping I guess that Paizo staff sees this and makes an errata saying Blazons of power work with handwraps I guess . . .Don't hold your breath. Eratta has been pretty limited and even beyond that Paizo has been very harsh about unarmed combat in general. Given how timid they are about letting unarmed characters do much of anything, it's as likely this is on purpose as not.
I know, but why specifically call out you can do punchies with the Drifter if you aren't allowed to because of Wealth by level? Seems odd to me. I can just as easily see them going "Hey Blazons of power works for the drifter archetype, let's move on to the next thing" without realizing that it technically doesn't because they haven't checked every little nook and cranny with the rules?
Anyway, I've seen my eratta for very minor corner cases get answered pretty quickly, so there is hope. I agree it may not be a lot of hope, but there is some.
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It is very very uncommon to play anything in PFS2 past 7-8 and even above L6 is normally only your main so it is pretty much the norm that striking only comes into play at the end of the character lifespanNote that, in my PFS experience, I rarely played beyond level 6. So, you only enjoy Striking for half your career. And by the time you can get it, you will soon be able to invest in a second one if need be.
And that is only if you play an empty-handed Drifter. IIRC, 1-handed melee weapon + 1-handed gun Drifter is quite feasible.
Luckily where we play we have a dedicated group of players so that really isn't an issue. I already have 2 PFS characters that are level 7+
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Luckily where we play we have a dedicated group of players so that really isn't an issue. I already have 2 PFS characters that are level 7+It is very very uncommon to play anything in PFS2 past 7-8 and even above L6 is normally only your main so it is pretty much the norm that striking only comes into play at the end of the character lifespanNote that, in my PFS experience, I rarely played beyond level 6. So, you only enjoy Striking for half your career. And by the time you can get it, you will soon be able to invest in a second one if need be.
And that is only if you play an empty-handed Drifter. IIRC, 1-handed melee weapon + 1-handed gun Drifter is quite feasible.
It is also a matter of getting enough PFS2 scenarii at these levels to keep on gaining new levels.
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Luckily where we play we have a dedicated group of players so that really isn't an issue. I already have 2 PFS characters that are level 7+It is very very uncommon to play anything in PFS2 past 7-8 and even above L6 is normally only your main so it is pretty much the norm that striking only comes into play at the end of the character lifespanNote that, in my PFS experience, I rarely played beyond level 6. So, you only enjoy Striking for half your career. And by the time you can get it, you will soon be able to invest in a second one if need be.
And that is only if you play an empty-handed Drifter. IIRC, 1-handed melee weapon + 1-handed gun Drifter is quite feasible.
You have a dedicated gaming group that plays pfs style? Hmmm ... I think I see the disconnect.
As an aside, there are only something like 10-12 scenarios which could be potentially higher than level 6 which means in normal PFS play it is very hard to find at the right time for your character. Also there are only 2 scenarios that go above L8 (ofc you could play APs and say that you are playing PFS to level 20)
I guess I’m lucky? We have a very active PFS chapter in my area (actually, two chapters in two towns 8 miles apart, so lots of crossover). And yes, during the scenario slowdown we have been playing APs for PFS credit.
Anyway, back on track, I hope this gets some visibility and eventually gets answered one way or the other. Seems like the drifter was meant to be comparable with punching/martial artists as all of their abilities call out using unarmed combat, it just becomes prohibitively expensive to buy two weapons to do it.
No
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The only thing that works right now is the L6 feat (Cutting Heavens and Crushing Earth) from Spirit Warrior archetype:
Your skill in combining fist and blade has grown into a seamless art where each attack makes an opponent more vulnerable to the next.
As long as you have invested and are wearing a set of handwraps of mighty blows, you also apply their runes to a single weapon you’re wielding that can be used with your Overwhelming Combination ability. You gain the following benefits.
• When you successfully Strike an opponent with this weapon, it’s off-guard to the next Strike you make against it with a fist unarmed attack before the end of your next turn.
• When you successfully Strike an opponent with your fist unarmed attack, it’s off-guard to the next Strike you make against it with a one-handed, agile, or finesse melee weapon before the end of your next turn.
So in theory you can go wraps to melee 1H as primary on the blazon's of shared power to a ranged 1H weapon as the secondary on the blazon's of shared power.
Its a lot of hoops to jump through for a melee oriented archetype. You're better to just use a weapon IMO.
I don't believe that works. Cutting Heaven, Crushing Earth says that you "apply" the runes from handwraps to a qualifying weapon. Then, Blazons of Shared Power says that, "As long as you're wielding both the primary weapon and the secondary weapon, the secondary weapon gains the benefit of the fundamental runes on the primary weapon." (Emphasis added.)
Since the primary weapon in your suggestion doesn't actually have any runes on it, the secondary weapon for Blazons would not get any runes.
The runes, via the feat, are applied from the handwraps by the feat to, but are not actually engraved on, the qualifying melee weapon.
I don't believe that works. Cutting Heaven, Crushing Earth says that you "apply" the runes from handwraps to a qualifying weapon. Then, Blazons of Shared Power says that, "As long as you're wielding both the primary weapon and the secondary weapon, the secondary weapon gains the benefit of the fundamental runes on the primary weapon." (Emphasis added.)
Since the primary weapon in your suggestion doesn't actually have any runes on it, the secondary weapon for Blazons would not get any runes.
The runes, via the feat, are applied from the handwraps by the feat to, but are not actually engraved on, the qualifying melee weapon.The bold emphasis doesn't say 'engraved on', you're adding that interpretation where it doesn't exist.
You would be right if it said apply the 'effects' of runes like the pre-remaster champion blade ally language used to be or the new exemplar Peerless under Heaven L7 epithet where you can get the effects of a bonus grievous rune. But without the keyword 'effects' the literal runes are being applied as is the current game's language precedent. This is one of the stealth nerfs of remaster language to the champion blade ally feature (its no longer the effect of a 4th rune but you just get the rune which will count against the weapon's max rune slots).
This combo is inclusive of property runes/fundamental runes to your 1H melee weapon. When you upgrade blazons you will also get the property runes.
By your take -- the literal runes are being applied -- Cutting Heaven, Crushing Earth creates an infinite wealth hack:
put on handwraps with runes.
pick up a qualifying weapon.
transfer runes from qualifying weapon to runestones.
sell runes.
rinse and repear. That is too obviously too good to be true.
If the wealth hack does not work because there are no actual runes on the qualifying melee weapon (applied from handwraps via CH,CE) then Blazons hack cannot work since there are no runes on the primary weapon for the secondary weapon to gain the benefits.