CLASSIC PROBLEM: Why don't the guards in the other room notice the sounds of combat?

[DRD1812]

This is a problem as old as dungeons, and it’s one that every GM has to figure out. How do you justify battling your way through a dungeon without fighting every inhabitant all at once? Why don’t the monsters seem to notice the sounds of slaughter emanating from the next room?

Typical answers include:

-- The monsters are selfish, and don't care about their comrades.
-- Infighting is common in this lair, so a bit of scrapping isn't cause for alarm.
-- Sounds carry strangely in the dungeon.
-- My guys do respond intelligently! I have cascading guard stations here, here, and here. Doesn't everyone?
-- I suspend my disbelief and play the damn game.

I’m betting you all have your own methods for this one. So as an exercise in better dungeon-building, share your rationale! (And, for the sake of argument, let’s assume that “dungeons don’t make sense which is why I don’t use them” is a less-than-useful answer.) All clear? Ready? Go!

(Comic for illustrative purposes.)

[*Thelith]

-1 perception per 10 feet.
-x perception per door/wall
-x perception from making their own noise.

100 feet down the hall behind a door while talking in a group is like -25 perception. When you're level 2 npc with 10 wisdom it's impossible to make the check.

[ErichAD]

I love Charda for this reason. They are morally obligated not to help each other, won't defend the eggs of another Charda, and so on. So I guess they pretend not to hear the commotion out of respect for the other Charda's honor or independence.

Generally I have groups that can hear the combat retreat to get a larger group. You'd fight the group of orcs in one room, turn the corner to find a hastily abandoned room, move on to the owlbear den, and hopefully see the two ogres hiding just inside the door rather then engaging the owlbear and getting ambushed. I'm a big fan of environmental story telling, so I enjoy the opportunity to describe a room well enough that the party can guess who or what was just in it.

I personally like using dungeons. A series of similarly shaped rooms and corridors is a good mundane anti-scrying anti-teleportation measure. I don't use them all the time, but serious minded magic literate creatures end up needing them.

[Loren Pechtel]

*Thelith wrote:

-1 perception per 10 feet.

-x perception per door/wall
-x perception from making their own noise.

100 feet down the hall behind a door while talking in a group is like -25 perception. When you're level 2 npc with 10 wisdom it's impossible to make the check.

This. Nearby monsters will respond if that's appropriate, but if you're not determined to pack as much as possible into the space it's not a problem. Rooms have purposes, they're not just sitting there full of enemies unless you're dealing with undead guardians or the like.

[TriOmegaZero]

Quote:

The reason the heroes are always so easily able to infiltrate the bad guy’s secret base isn’t because evil minions are stupid. I mean, they may well be, but that’s not why.

Rather, it’s because effective operational security depends on establishing and enforcing norms. No behaviour is suspicious in the abstract; that judgment can only be made with reference to some accepted code of conduct.

And if you’re a minion? You basically have no point of reference, because working for an evil overlord is, scientifically speaking, weird as hell.

You had to fight a giant squid as part of your orientation. You’re pretty sure Alice over in engineering is a version of you from a parallel universe, but neither of you have ever had the guts to bring it up. Your supervisor wears a horned helmet in the g~@&%!n break room.

So when you’re confronted with that “new hire” who’s really, really obviously three raccoons in a trenchcoat, you’ve gotta ask yourself: is this… normal? Should I be reporting this to someone?

More importantly, do I want to make this my problem?

And for those who make it as minions, the answer very quickly becomes no, no I do not.

Source

[Boomerang Nebula]

It’s called cowardice/self preservation. If you can hear that the guards next door are getting slaughtered by some unknown intruder are you really going to stick around and receive the same punishment?

Or, they are ordered to guard a particular area and they know what happens when they disobey orders and the evil overlord finds out.

Or, they are sleeping or drunk on the job.

Or, they have the perfect ambush planned right where they are already stationed.

Or, they hate the guards next door. Serves them right for cheating at cards.

Or, they don’t want to blunder into a counter ambush.

Or, the evil overlord built massive sound proof doors, can’t hear much through those things.

Or, they want reinforcements to arrive first.

Or, they are just not paid enough to take unnecessary risks.

[Sysryke]

Don't know that I can add too much to this conversation. We all have our creative (and not so creative) answers to this issue. One other thing to consider would be the length of combat. Even the most seasoned of players can lose perspective of this, because real world time for game combats takes sooooo much play time. But, even if you have a combat that drags on for 20 rounds, that's still only 2 minutes in game time. The explanation could be as simple as the time it takes for the combat to resolve is matched by the guards hearing the fight, shushing up their comrades so they can identify the noise, discussing how to proceed, gathering their gear, and setting up a plan of action. By the time all that listening, discussing, and shuffling is resolved, the fight may be over, and the party is already on its way towards the next encounter.

[MrCharisma]

We don't really have this problem.

If the monsters would hear then the monsters DO hear. Half way through the combat a conga-line of Orcs or whatever comes down one corridor and now we have to readjust the combat. If they're not being stealthy we usually get a perception check to hear them coming with about 1 round to reposition ourselves.

It makes for way more interesting encounters when the balance of power changes mid-combat.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Short answer: its a pita. I'm in the same boat as Sysryke upthread; after about level 3 fights take forever. And bear in mind; I give the players an arbitrary amount of time staring at the battle mat (usually, I'd estimate, a minute or so) and then I start counting visibly on my fingers to 30. If I get to 30 the offending player is delaying until next turn. I warn my players of this behavior before the first session is ever played.

However, I have to remember to do this and I have to also answer questions of the players mid combat: "wait, I know you're counting, but I'm trying to figure... do I have line of sight to this guy? Like, you said these bats here are using their wings to kick up a cloud of dust, but this guy here I'm thinking of targeting is on the edge of the cloud but just made a ranged attack, so can I see him enough for a Magic Missile spell?" and so on.

So... combat is a time sink. Its complicated. Rewards for specific combats are calculated well ahead of time, since I homebrew everything. In order to make logical sense of nearby monsters hearing this and running to help, I've got to extend the complicated combat, make a mental note that I depopulated the next room and recalculate rewards on the fly based on the NEW fight.

Or...

Wandering monsters have been a tradition in dungeons since I've been playing one version or another of D&D. Again, I homebrew everything so when I run dungeons I have custom Wandering Monster tables. If room A is going miraculously well for the PCs and I decide I DO want to add reinforcements, I roll on the table and send in whatever comes up. Since it's a WM, I never intend it to have any treasure other than what it's carrying, and on the off chance I'm awarding XP I'll just add the WM's XP total to the final number of the combat.

[Diego Rossi]

My NPCs react to what they hear/perceive, depending on their personality, level, duty, and ability.

The gnoll king that is doing his stuff with his wives and hears the soldiers two rooms away being slaughtered will don his armor hastily, pick up his weapons, unbar the door and then go and try to slaughter the PCs. He is a big barbarian with 9 HD, and that is what he is meant to do.

The human king, that is a 3 level aristocratic with mediocre stats, in the same situation will pile some furniture behind the bedroom door or flee through a secret passage.

The arrogant high-level wizard will cast some preparatory spell and try to make himself as impressive as possible so that his minions seeing the battle will be impressed and will tell the tale of his invincibility.

Same thing for minions, monsters, and whatnot.

[Mark Hoover 330]

My favorite response to this question comes from an episode of the tv show Community in which the show's characters play a game of D&D, the goal of which is to defeat an evil necromancer.

The show's characters, fighting amongst themselves, make an absolute din of noise grinding their way through the necromancer's tower. When the last 2 remaining PCs arrive at the tower's apex, they find an empty laboratory with a secret door, leading to a secret set of stairs that in turn leads out of the tower.

Why doesn't anyone come and help when they hear noise in the next room? Because they're too busy fleeing.

[Loren Pechtel]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Short answer: its a pita. I'm in the same boat as Sysryke upthread; after about level 3 fights take forever. And bear in mind; I give the players an arbitrary amount of time staring at the battle mat (usually, I'd estimate, a minute or so) and then I start counting visibly on my fingers to 30. If I get to 30 the offending player is delaying until next turn. I warn my players of this behavior before the first session is ever played.

I've always worked with a lot less time--but if you're not ready you drop behind the next player instead of losing your action.

[Mightypion]

I am fine with time limits, but, my players can declare a "long turn" once or twice per combat which has no time limit.
Mid to high level play, you do need to make a number of guesses (Do these mooks, who have halberds and thus could trip with AoOs but are flat footed, possibly have combat reflexes? What AC can I expect from them? Combat exerptise yes/no, fighting defensively yes/no etc.) and run some math before your actions.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Mightypion wrote:

I am fine with time limits, but, my players can declare a "long turn" once or twice per combat which has no time limit.

Mid to high level play, you do need to make a number of guesses (Do these mooks, who have halberds and thus could trip with AoOs but are flat footed, possibly have combat reflexes? What AC can I expect from them? Combat exerptise yes/no, fighting defensively yes/no etc.) and run some math before your actions.

So... what's the APL of the party? What CR is the encounter built for? How many mooks and what is the big bad they're protecting? What are the builds of the PCs?

If your players are going to do math in the middle of a combat round, they should have all the facts. I personally just go with the Monster Creation chart for averages and call it a day.

At level 1 I need to be able to hit an AC of 12, deal 3.75 damage and withstand a full combat round that inflicts 7 points of damage or beat a save with a DC of 12. By level 10 I need to hit AC 24, deal 32.5 damage in a full attack round and survive 45 points of damage or beat a save DC of 19.

Also... why are you sweating mooks using a trip attack in the first place? Like, is that a thing a lot of APs do? Are there groups of humanoids using the template that represents troops or mobs, equipping them with Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes that I'm not aware of?

If the GM describes a horde of, say, Medium sized humanoids all with halberds wearing a specific armor type (say, chainmail) I know based on my own level they're likely individually less powerful than my character and therefore have a low chance of hitting me if I've built my character well.

On the other hand, depending what I've designed my character for, I'll do what I'm best at until circumstances tell me I can't. For example I personally love switch hitting, high Dex builds. If I'm a halfling Warpriest (Divine Commander) 7/Hunter 3 and there's a sea of mooks between me and the big bad, I'll either try to get to within 30' of the big bad, stop, and full attack them with my slingstaff bullets or ranged attack several mooks to try and clear a path for the half minotaur shaman/brawler/bloodrager in the party (an actual character from one campaign).

In both of those instances, because of the feats I gave my wolf Sacred Mount, moving through threatened areas wasn't going to trigger AoOs anyway and I'm so ridiculously accurate with my ranged attacks that it is unlikely I'll miss anyway.

[Mightypion]

I generally go for fewer enemies but they fight intelligently, dont pull punches, have names (usually generated) and make use of combat maneuvers and formations.
If the party is a bunch of level 6 characters, the guards can be level 3ish, and may well have combat reflexes and deft or powerful maneuvers (elephant in the room rules generally being in effect, including for the opposition).

A STR 14 mook with deft maneuvers and 3ish levels will have an effective CMB of (3 BAB + 2 STR + 2 Deft maneuvers)=7 CMB, a level 6 6/9 caster will be looking at a 10+(4 BAB, 6-8ish from attributes)=20-22 CMB, so the mook does trip such a character on a 13-15 ish, which is quite threatening.

[Mark Hoover 330]

See now, the folks I game with are sticklers for RAW. Also, how often does a 6/9 caster move INSIDE of the Reach of a halberd? Is this something that comes up a lot in other's games?

Because of the experience of my players, their highly strategic nature and the fact that they've optimized their PCs as hard as they can around Perception, scouting/recon/intel gathering, and HP damage delivery mechanics, I tend to use large groups of villains/monsters with a variety of skillsets.

I've broken RAW twice in this game; once to allow the paladin to get a war bull as his Divine Bond mount, and once to give all of the players Leadership as a free feat, provided they only choose cohorts from NPCs they'd met in the campaign so far. From level 1 they'd been paying a Cleric of Pharasma to travel with them and keep them healed between battles; that became one Cohort at level 7. Another was a grippili busker bard the PCs met several sessions ago when he tried to run a con on the u-rogue's bar.

So now this party consists of a human wizard (fire wizard)7 with a pyrausta familiar, an elf u-rogue (scout)7 with the grippili cohort, a half-dwarf paladin 7 with the cleric cohort and a half-elf u-monk 7. The paladin's mount is also a significant threat. For all of these reasons, any NPC that I put against the party is Heroic tier and monsters typically get the Simple: Advanced template if they're melee martial type foes.

Now the thing is, based on their skills, class abilities and items, these PCs are rarely surprised except for Invisible foes. Flying is still a problem for half the party, though consumables the wizard is working on will fix this. Going straight at this party in melee, even with combat maneuvers is folly. Ranged attacks prolong a fight but the ACs of the 3 martial types are so high that multiple lower-level mooks tend to miss every shot.

No, if I really want to threaten this party I need:

1. four or more villains in the fight
2. one villain specifically designed to pre-buff and potentially continue to buff the enemy's side
3. a big bruiser in melee to soak up the martials' attention
4. a single, accurate ranged attacker with multiple attacks to threaten the wizard
5. one or more unique terrain elements that may hinder the PCs

If I had x3 halberd wielders in a fight, even with Fighter (Lore Warden; PFS version)4 on them, these NPCs alone wouldn't be a threat at all. To them I'd likely add low obstacles the NPCs could use as Cover and prevent Charging easily, a skeletal champion Monk (Zen Archer)4 with a +1 longbow and a kobold Adept 5/warrior 3 with a Rhampy mauler familiar it's flying around on while invisible.

The kobold delivers buff spells to his side, the zen archer tries to keep the wizard pinned down, and the three halberd wielders are on the ground protecting the objective of the scene, be that treasure, a McGuffin, an exit or pathway towards another encounter or whatever. This is a CR 8 fight and the NPCs would all have Heroic tier stats and gear.

[Scavion]

They do. I've had enemies break and run to basically round up everyone in the bandit camp or in one particular instance in the last part of Book 1 Ironfang Invasion, the party started a fight with the entire enemy camp.

I've had an enemy flee and ambush the party from behind during another fight as well. If it makes sense within the story...do it.

[Mightypion]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Free leadership for everyone

You literally gave everyone the most game breaking feat for free, of course you essentially need to double up on encounters :)

[Diego Rossi]

Mightypion wrote:

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Free leadership for everyone

You literally gave everyone the most game breaking feat for free, of course you essentially need to double up on encounters :)

It all depends on how it is used.

If the cohort works for free and does everything the leader requires, sure.
If the cohort you get from the "free" leadership asks for a part of the loot or pay and is an independent character with his goals, not so much.

Mark limited it: "provided they only choose cohorts from NPCs they'd met in the campaign so far". So, not an NPC tailored to what the player wants, but someone with a personality and a specific set of class, archetype, feats, and skills. No "wizard crafting bot" but the Illusionist you meet that is more interested in archeological finds than getting the full set of magical items to kill the enemies.

[Mark Hoover 330]

I do also require PCs to share an amount of treasure with their cohorts if said cohorts come with on adventures. Two of the four PCs left their cohorts in the city to be their business' managers. Of the two that continue with the party in the dungeon, neither was particularly well optimized for combat and on one occasion so far I've stepped in to roleplay the grippili bard and push back against a seemingly suicidal request of the cohort expressly so that the wizard didn't have to cast Fly on someone (the grippili has a Climb speed along with the Leaper and Glider alternate racial traits).

Still I agree with you Mighty P; the group as is constitutes a lot more than the standard APL 7 party. They're veteran players running highly combat optimized PCs. They also have a war bull instead of the standard horse for a mount, two adventuring cohorts, and the wizard makes surprisingly good use of the Pyrausta as an additional scout in the dungeon.

A typical "average" fight against this party is CR 8. As mentioned, all NPCs are always Heroic tier and most melee focused monsters get the Simple: Advanced template. Last game I had a kobold Adept 5/Warrior 3 melt out of Invisibility to cast Burning Hands on the cleric cohort chilling in the back of the party. The kobold had a flask of Alchemist's Fire he sacrificed to the spell so when the cleric failed his save he lit on fire.

After the level 5, non-optimized cleric took 14 Fire damage (almost half his HP) lit on fire, barely made a save for the "satchel full of spell scrolls" he carries AND lost actions from the supposed "weakest" of the foes the party faced in this one attack, the PCs finally began to understand that when I say its dangerous to have their cohorts adventure with them... it really is dangerous.

[Michael Talley 759]

Generally, if they can hear, they do in my settings. Many plan their own Ambush against those who are breaking in, also why in larger areas where sound doesn't travel well they'll set off an alarm to alert everyone there are intruders. Some will come to look for the group {Guard types], some will lay Ambushes [Those generally too weak to chase down indruders] and the Main Villain the PCs are generally after knows to set themselves up for a fight should they not receive word of the intruder's removal by the guards in the proper fashion. (after all, some intruders have been known to disguise themselves as the guards)

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

I do also require PCs to share an amount of treasure with their cohorts if said cohorts come with on adventures.

I don't have to require it - they do it automatically.

[DRD1812]

*Thelith wrote:

-1 perception per 10 feet.

-x perception per door/wall
-x perception from making their own noise.

100 feet down the hall behind a door while talking in a group is like -25 perception. When you're level 2 npc with 10 wisdom it's impossible to make the check.

The DC to hear the sounds of battle is -10.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/perception/

Under these conditions (100 feet down a hall behind a door), a group of 4 goblins with a -1 to Perception still have a ~68% chance to hear combat at the gates.

The issues isn't overhearing conversation during the initial approach. The issue is reinforcements converging from the rest of dungeon as soon as the first combat breaks out.

[Diego Rossi]

DRD1812 wrote:

*Thelith wrote:

-1 perception per 10 feet.

-x perception per door/wall
-x perception from making their own noise.

100 feet down the hall behind a door while talking in a group is like -25 perception. When you're level 2 npc with 10 wisdom it's impossible to make the check.

The DC to hear the sounds of battle is -10.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/perception/

Under these conditions (100 feet down a hall behind a door), a group of 4 goblins with a -1 to Perception still have a ~68% chance to hear combat at the gates.

The issues isn't overhearing conversation during the initial approach. The issue is reinforcements converging from the rest of dungeon as soon as the first combat breaks out.

It is an artifact of rolling several dice. It is better to have the guards take 10 instead of rolling.

And having more people in the same room will generate noise, not help in listening.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Hearing the sound of battle: initial DC is -10

+1 to the DC/10' distance between the battle and the listener

+5 through a closed door

+5 from the creatures making the check being "distracted"

PCs at level 1 enter a goblin-controlled cave complex. For some reason these goblins have doors that close on their caverns. The party comes upon the first room, throws open the first door and enters, beginning to battle with x3 goblin warrior 1.

75' away is the next chamber of 3 goblin warrior 1 conscripts. Now these are goblins; they are not known for being calm, patient and diligent during guard duty. At present the 3 goblins in this next room are having a fun little game of "light the cave rats on fire" with some torches (they're distracted).

Based on the physical distance the fight is INSIDE the first chamber and how deep the goblins are in the second chamber, there is exactly 100' between where the fight is taking place and where the goblins are torturing rats. These 3 goblins have a DC 10 Perception check to hear the distant sounds of battle.

If the goblins take 10, they fail with their -1 Perception skill. If the goblins were somehow SUPER disciplined and waiting at rigid attention however, they'd have heard the fight break out.

The key to this, if you're actually going to RAW the Perception check in these kinds of scenarios, is to really be honest about the monsters you're dealing with and what they're doing. If you're going that far, you need to take it even further and determine things like how if there are walls in the way, if any ambient sounds or conditions considered unfavorable to the NPCs/monsters rolling the Perception check, and so on.

If you're going to take the time to RP all of this in your head, as the GM, then you also have to think about timing, morale, and the listener's reaction to the sounds of a fight. Are these creatures that brawl with each other a lot? Maybe they wouldn't even bat an eye at the sound of distant scuffles. Are they craven and fearful? Maybe they only sound the alarm to their leaders and run away. What if the PCs roll really lucky and the fight only lasts one combat round? Would the listeners some and investigate, or would they ignore it and go back to whatever they were doing?

Finally, what exactly does the battle SOUND like? 4 Slayer-classed PCs getting the drop on a single ogre and SA'ing the thing to death in one round using ranged attacks is a HUGE difference from the sound of 4 rage-lance-barbarians surging into the chamber of the same ogre.

Or

The GM just DECIDES: do I want to prolong the fight in THIS room, or do I want the PCs to have multiple smaller fights spread across multiple rooms? Then they do whatever they decide. Period.

[Loren Pechtel]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

If your players are going to do math in the middle of a combat round, they should have all the facts. I personally just go with the Monster Creation chart for averages and call it a day.

Characters can't do the math, period. Thus there's no reason to give a player time to do the math.

[wraithstrike]

DRD1812 wrote:

This is a problem as old as dungeons, and it’s one that every GM has to figure out. How do you justify battling your way through a dungeon without fighting every inhabitant all at once? Why don’t the monsters seem to notice the sounds of slaughter emanating from the next room?

Typical answers include:

-- The monsters are selfish, and don't care about their comrades.
-- Infighting is common in this lair, so a bit of scrapping isn't cause for alarm.
-- Sounds carry strangely in the dungeon.
-- My guys do respond intelligently! I have cascading guard stations here, here, and here. Doesn't everyone?
-- I suspend my disbelief and play the damn game.

I’m betting you all have your own methods for this one. So as an exercise in better dungeon-building, share your rationale! (And, for the sake of argument, let’s assume that “dungeons don’t make sense which is why I don’t use them” is a less-than-useful answer.) All clear? Ready? Go!

(Comic for illustrative purposes.)

If they can hear it, they'll show up if I'm GM'ing. This assumes there isn't a reason for them to ignore combat such as them being told to guard an area, or setting up an ambush of their own.

Another thing I don't do is assume bad guys have every buff applied. If a buff is less than 10 minutes per level the bad guy has to have some idea the PC's are coming.