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So, Paizo's community - with these boards at the forefront - have a Director, namely Tonya, who assumed this position and by all accounts took over the competencies of Sara Marie in this regard.
Now, I was wondering, Tonya - between all the discussions (or, rather, bloody flamewars with some absolute dregs of humanity (re)surfacing) about workplace conditions, mistreatment, management failures, unionising, racism, apologism of slavery it seems to me that large parts of this forum have deteriorated to the point where long-standing pillars of community such as Steve Geddes have departed. Personally, I'm much more enjoying the PF Reddits (of all places) to what Paizo boards have become in the recent months, as moderation there (not to mention the up/downvote system) seem to be much better at keeping the place hospitable.
Do you think that the community is headed in the right direction and if not, what are you planning to do about it?
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I'm still here.
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It's a sad thing that Reddit's volunteer moderation is doing a better job than the Paizo executives can seem to work out how to do. They could literally pay people to moderate the forums. Instead we just have an extremely overworked Heather F struggling to hold down twenty forts at a time while also doing a second job on top of that.
I'm not gonna call for an upvote/downvote system because that's too easy to abuse. I like being able to see who supports what. The greatest edge of a messageboard is the power of community accountability, the simple fear of being judged by peers we respect.
We need more moderators, and more willingness to remove people who are a net negative to the community--people whose only contributions are bile and baiting, who refuse on multiple occasions to engage productively in discussions or assume good faith, who look for excuses to signal their contempt for the aims of social justice and equal rights activism.
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But is that a positive thing? :P
I don't know...
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There are enough of us here that I like that I'm not ready to move on yet, but I will admit that Not Gorbacz's point is well made. The boards have been shot ever since Sara Marie and Diego left and while HMM and some others (KC included) have tried to help guide the threads away from the abyss, those attempts seem to have been in vain.
There seemed to be a glimmer of hope when the permanent suspension hammer got brought in, but for some reason it seems to be on hold. I have a number of hypothetical scenarios for that reason, none of them good.
Can this be saved? Yes, but they need to put more resources on it. If the executives have decided that the forums "don't make us money, they cost us money" without looking at it as a customer retention expense, those extra resources may never show up.
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To clarify, the Director of Community is part of a team that is meeting regularly to discuss the Forums and how we can improve them. Actions have been taken. We think these actions are headed in the right direction. More are being considered. For the most part, we are all in the process of preparing to go on holiday, so things are slowing down for a few weeks.
For now, I encourage everyone to envision what they would like to the Forums to become. Note the Paizo Forums are different in that only paid staff can moderate them vs most other platforms that can have numerous volunteers, such as Reddit or Facebook. We have our ideas and welcome input.
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Let's be honest: No matter how many well meaning folks who actually believe in a just and equal world try to guide the forums, there are a number of equally loud contrarians who scream whenever anything changes.
Someone made the point yesterday about the slaver issue: if Erik never responded to the freelancer and just implemented the changes he proposed we wouldn't have had a bunch of "how could you censor history in my fantasy game" and "I want my edgy slavery quests" come out of the woodwork and clog up every thread even mildly related.
Only active moderation will keep these boards usable which is not going to be easy to do when you only have two mods and one of them is at a director level and the other has other critical job responsibilities.
These forums have been an incredible source for information for me, even as a lurker for years, but right now the fact that we have chuds who are willing to argue against a person's right to life and liberty (re the transphobia issue) is indicative of the state of the forum.
It needs to improve, and it won't without more moderation and more aggressive moderation. Bad actors are apparent and they need to go. Hate has no place here.
Edit: Aaron beat me to the punch... I appreciate the input. I will say that the hard stance on transphobia was a welcome step, and I hope these hard pushes for explicit boundaries continue.
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Someone made the point yesterday about the slaver issue: if Erik never responded to the freelancer and just implemented the changes he proposed we wouldn't have had a bunch of "how could you censor history in my fantasy game" and "I want my edgy slavery quests" come out of the woodwork and clog up every thread even mildly related.
His swift response was 100% necessary and vital though, because we were going to make that change anyway, whether or not he responded. And if he didn't respond, the assumption would be that we were ignoring the problem. We aren't. Paizo has failed on communication too many times, both to our customers and to our employees. Erik's quick response is us an example of us trying to fix that communication problem.
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Someone made the point yesterday about the slaver issue: if Erik never responded to the freelancer and just implemented the changes he proposed we wouldn't have had a bunch of "how could you censor history in my fantasy game" and "I want my edgy slavery quests" come out of the woodwork and clog up every thread even mildly related.His swift response was 100% necessary and vital though, because we were going to make that change anyway, whether or not he responded. And if he didn't respond, the assumption would be that we were ignoring the problem. We aren't. Paizo has failed on communication too many times, both to our customers and to our employees. Erik's quick response is us an example of us trying to fix that communication problem.
Oh, we love you for taking a stance on it! We're just pointing out that you took risks to do it loudly. And we love you for taking those risks. I've spent $100 on paizo stuff this week. Thank you!
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I am fully appreciative of Erik Mona's quick response. I would rather it be a priority that Paizo do their best to be open and clear, and I am disappointed that so many critical of the change jumped so readily to conclusions. I don't want Paizo's lesson here to be, "keep your mouth shut". Let those who often complain of political correctness walk the walk and seek clarifications before attacking.
Also, I do want to say, as I often do: The Paizo forums are a good place. They've been pretty unpleasant lately, but this is in large part because we are able to expect better here. I'd rather stay on a well-regulated Paizo than a well-regulated Reddit board any day.
Thank you to Aaron for clarifying that changes are underway. I think a lot of us got really worried when the biggest change recently was the promotion of one of the most trusted moderators off of the team--which, y'know, I'm super happy for Raychael, and I'm glad that she gets to get away from all this, it just unsettled us that the moderation team seemed to be getting shorter- and shorter-staffed.
It seemed like a change in the wrong direction, and it came around the same time a few two-week suspensions ran out and gave us some unexpected and unpleasant reunions. Bad timing.
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I am fully appreciative of Erik Mona's quick response. I would rather it be a priority that Paizo do their best to be open and clear, and I am disappointed that so many critical of the change jumped so readily to conclusions. I don't want Paizo's lesson here to be, "keep your mouth shut". Let those who often complain of political correctness walk the walk and seek clarifications before attacking.
Also, I do want to say, as I often do: The Paizo forums are a good place. They've been pretty unpleasant lately, but this is in large part because we are able to expect better here. I'd rather stay on a well-regulated Paizo than a well-regulated Reddit board any day.
Thank you to Aaron for clarifying that changes are underway. I think a lot of us got really worried when the biggest change recently was the promotion of one of the most trusted moderators off of the team--which, y'know, I'm super happy for Raychael, and I'm glad that she gets to get away from all this, it just unsettled us that the moderation team seemed to be getting shorter- and shorter-staffed.
It seemed like a change in the wrong direction, and it came around the same time a few two-week suspensions ran out and gave us some unexpected and unpleasant reunions. Bad timing.
Thank you both KC and Ace for clarifying my post. You both totally read my mind, excuse my poorly made point.
My only wish is that you all can be that transparent without having the forums descend into the "bloody flamewars", as Gorb described them, and resulting in someone as incredible as Owen being harassed. The transparency is incredibly valuable to me.
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...
Thank you to Aaron for clarifying that changes are underway. I think a lot of us got really worried when the biggest change recently was the promotion of one of the most trusted moderators off of the team--which, y'know, I'm super happy for Raychael, and I'm glad that she gets to get away from all this, it just unsettled us that the moderation team seemed to be getting shorter- and shorter-staffed.
It seemed like a change in the wrong direction, and it came around the same time a few two-week suspensions ran out and gave us some unexpected and unpleasant reunions. Bad timing.
Understandable concern. We've all talked about it. Mkting's gain is CS's loss in the short term, but we are all in close communication and I'm sure Rachael's position will be filled ASAP. Cheers.
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Yeah, I tried not to jump to conclusions about it. Or at least keep my paranoid overreacting fantasies of "oh god they're going to delete the forums and institute Martial(s over casters) Law" to private channels where people could talk me down. :P
We really, really appreciate you, Aaron Shanks. You go above and beyond, and I hope the time comes soon when you don't feel you have to.
A big problem I have with online debate is that it tends to polarize people quickly, and "I'm concerned about x" all-too-often becomes "x is going to actually destroy Paizo" within a few exchanges because we're too stressed trying to "defend ourselves" to think rationally. We only realize we went way beyond our original opinions when we stop to take a breath, or, lately, when a Paizo staffer posts and two-thirds of us all suddenly remember the emotion of shame.
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It's a sad thing that Reddit's volunteer moderation is doing a better job than the Paizo executives can seem to work out how to do.
I tried to phrase this carefully, but every time I reread it I wince, so I'm gonna take another pass at it too. My point was that volunteer moderation is nothing compared to a well-staffed and well-resourced team, but that moderation at Paizo has been running on a skeleton crew--a crew of fine and talented people, but still. I really don't like how this comes across as "a bunch of VOLUNTEERS are doing better than PAID MODERATORS". That's not what I wanted to say at all, and I'm sorry if it came across that way to anyone. My concern is about the team's resources and numbers, not the quality of the team. :(
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I think adding a ignore feature might be a potential benefit and help eliminate people being triggered further by someone whom they feel is trolling or agitating an issue. Also maybe a three strike system could be helpful, with a third strike leading up to a temporary ban or permanent ban depending on the cause.
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I think adding a ignore feature might be a potential benefit and help eliminate people being triggered further by someone whom they feel is trolling or agitating an issue. Also maybe a three strike system could be helpful, with a third strike leading up to a temporary ban or permanent ban depending on the cause.
Also maybe evaluate the code of conduct for the forum and see if it needs to be updated or there are some holes that need be filled.
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A "Block" feature that goes both ways would be seriously lovely. I know it's probably hard to implement on these forums, and I know it's probably already on the to-do list, but this is just to reiterate that it's something I would love.
The moderators do have a "strikes" system to some degree, even though it isn't formalized publicly. I personally am in favor of "exiles", too, where a poster who's allowed to return is banned from certain subforums or topics, either by the site mechanics or simply by a warning of "post there and you're out for good".
I think they're already working on an updated Code of Conduct, which I'm very happy about. :)
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The boards have been shot ever since Sara Marie and Diego left and while HMM and some others (KC included) have tried to help guide the threads away from the abyss, those attempts seem to have been in vain.
I think the forums will get better again. Things got better with the permanent suspension ban hammer, but Erik Mona's public statement brought a whole new set of angry posters at a time when many Paizo Staffers go on very well deserved holiday breaks.
I feel like there should be a filk based on Maxwell's Silver Hammer and the banning process, but maybe that would be a bit tasteless.
Aside to Aaron: I am glad that you guys are looking into ways to improve forum moderation. Also, hugs to James Jacobs just for being James Jacobs.
Hmm
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The boards have been shot ever since Sara Marie and Diego left and while HMM and some others (KC included) have tried to help guide the threads away from the abyss, those attempts seem to have been in vain.I think the forums will get better again. Things got better with the permanent suspension ban hammer, but Erik Mona's public statement brought a whole new set of angry posters at a time when many Paizo Staffers go on very well deserved holiday breaks.
I feel like there should be a filk based on Maxwell's Silver Hammer and the banning process, but maybe that would be a bit tasteless.
Aside to Aaron: I am glad that you guys are looking into ways to improve forum moderation. Also, hugs to James Jacobs just for being James Jacobs.
Hmm
I hope you're right, Hilary. Lately there have been days I almost don't want to look through the threads as I know it will be a sad slog.
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I realized I only mentioned Heather in my first post, but I do really appreciate Logan Harper and Keith Greer, too (and Rian Davenport, who I don't think I've ever met but who I am sure does valuable work behind-the-scenes). I haven't been subscribed to anything in a while, so I haven't really dealt a lot with Customer Service except through the recent moderation of the threads I've been frequenting. That said, all three of them do stellar work on these forums. I just swim in a small pond. >-<
Why not take a break then? Give yourself a week or two and then come back.
Partly a mild case of OCD and partly I would miss keeping up with the goings on with my online friends. I try and keep away from the rule sections because of the conflicts that arise there, but I enjoy reading (and occasionally posting) in the other areas. I take a few days off here and there, but that's all.
If it gets so bad that I need a break I will take one, rest assured. I just hope it doesn't get so bad a break would be required.
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I appreciate you guys, and to be clear, whatever direction that you the CS team and such decide is best for the forum and the game is a journey I'm happy to come on, I do trust, and I worry that doesn't come across well enough in my recent post in the other thread, as I was exploring the issue and discussion surrounding it, as well as potential consequences. Ya'll have ultimately got to make the decision for what's right.
I kind of want to see the forums be the place where the deep dive discourse happens, because the other platforms don't really cut it--
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Twitter (like Facebook) funnels people into echo chambers, and it values short and pithy remarks that seem wise, but lack in discussion or nuance, and using its curation tools ethically, in regards to dissent, can be a challenge.
Reddit is a bit better, but the upvote/downvote system tends to encourage the development of as hive mind, and the way posts are structured and flow off the front page make it hard to have in-depth ongoing conversations.
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I actually believe that some of these threads that require heavy moderation, if that moderation happens, are really valuable because we end up confronting and hashing out some essential issues facing this game and the hobby as a whole. They get heated and personal, and yeah obviously it would be nice to have a little less of that, but the actual passion and discussion, and back and forth can be really valuable.
So I would like to see a clear code of conduct, as well as clear rules about what positions will not be tolerated on the forum (Transphobia, Racism, advocacy for the institution of slavery, to name a few recent things.)
Beyond that though, I'd like to see the forums embrace its place as an open discourse, and a place where that kind of conflict can play out and still be considered healthy.
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@ Feros -- I get that. I am totally a forum junkie. (I think that may be tattooed on my forehead for all to see.) So... We need a happy happy joy joy thread.
Maybe one here where we recognize great posts and fun threads? A sort of 'don't miss out?' Or a thread about things in Paizo books that you really like?
Otherwise, yeah... It's good to take breaks when you need them. I sometimes take time off from the forums to clear my head, and that helps a lot.
Hmm
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Hey, no cloud without a silver lining. There's been some amazing comradery these past few weeks.
As an aside, it looks like the whole thread is gone - and if so, I understand why - but Hilary, I really hope you saved a copy of your Thorgrin filk song. Between that and the sheep, I was cry-laughing...
Honestly, a "thread curation" thread could itself be a fun thread to start. Maybe I'll try to put one together, though I may not be the best person since I was gone for so long.
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I didn't save a copy, and that's probably okay. It was one of those songs that was best as a response to the moment. I really had hoped that the thread would morph into dwarf and sheep silliness that would carry us through Christmas.
I am delighted that I got you to cry-laugh. That gives me joy.
Hmm
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I think the forums will get better again.
I don't think they will. We've hit the point where people are saying and hearing completely different things to each other. Conversation is VERY difficult with that level of miscommunication. But it's neigh impossible when people don't recognize that it's happening, and beyond impossible when one method of communication is itself seen as synonymous with virtue.
People will either separate into different forums operating under their same conversational paradigm or just spam ignore the heck out of each other at the first sign of someone being in the other camp.
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I don't think they will. We've hit the point where people are saying and hearing completely different things to each other. Conversation is VERY difficult with that level of miscommunication. But it's neigh impossible when people don't recognize that it's happening, and beyond impossible when one method of communication is itself seen as synonymous with virtue.
People will either separate into different forums operating under their same conversational paradigm or just spam ignore the heck out of each other at the first sign of someone being in the other camp.
Agreed and seconded.
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I personally disagree, and think that the behavior you're describing has largely only been targeting posters who were already behaving very badly towards others. I'd rather not derail this thread, so I'm going to refrain from giving more of a "rebuttal" than that.
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♫ My name is Thorgrin Willowshield, a lawful knight of Golarian
I like to get together with my all my friends and carry on
We make our arguments in voices quite stentorian
I bring in earth analogs to show I'm a historian
We argue lore with heretics who might harry on
And rehash old debates that smell a bit like carrion!
About conspiracies involving 5e we have a lot of news
We will say I told you so as all hell broke loose
Chorus:
We will say I told you so as all hell broke loose
We will say I told you so as all hell broke loose
We will say I told you so as all hell broke loose
We are expert in Golarian lore and every story precedent
In defending what has gone before we are never hesitant
We might move to Andoran and then go run for president
We are stand up guys with insights that are prescient
Chorus:
In short, in matters saurian, victorian and praetorian
He's Thorgrin Willowshield, a lawful knight of Golarian ♫
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** spoiler omitted **
HUZZAH!!!!
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This ain't the first time we've been there. Not by a long shot.
The only time I recall anything near this critical mass was the political threads.
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I think the forums will get better again.
I don't think they will. We've hit the point where people are saying and hearing completely different things to each other. Conversation is VERY difficult with that level of miscommunication. But it's neigh impossible when people don't recognize that it's happening, and beyond impossible when one method of communication is itself seen as synonymous with virtue.
People will either separate into different forums operating under their same conversational paradigm or just spam ignore the heck out of each other at the first sign of someone being in the other camp.
That particular phenomenon isn't really the paizo forum, its happening in all spaces right now.
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These forums haven’t been fun for months now. It’s pretty miserable.
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*hugs*
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I personally disagree, and think that the behavior you're describing has largely only been targeting posters who were already behaving very badly towards others. I'd rather not derail this thread, so I'm going to refrain from giving more of a "rebuttal" than that.
I've got a different angle. Long-time active member but lurking mostly since a year or two after PF2 release... I'm still around every day, watching for interesting topics.
They're gone.
Let me qualify that. The recent threads regarding events and behaviours at Paizo have been frequently educational and instructive and they've certainly been important. But they haven't been interesting. I'm reading them because I should, not because I derive any pleasure from doing so.
So... what's the future look like? Is the black hole going to go away somehow? Things go back to being generally cheerful, positive, and light? I just don't see that. Once Billy sees his Mom getting murdered, he's changed forever and all the birthday parties in the world aren't going to rewind time.
Unions won't change that. Resignations won't change that. Hiring additional CSRs and moderators won't change that. Abolishing unpleasant topics as plot devices or fine-tuning their presentation won't change that.
Poop got serious. For serious reasons.
So, IMHO while some regulars may have some good days and some posts or threads will likely rebound in tone, I just don't see things on average improving.
Put one more way... I consider myself a neutral. I've never known - or cared - what gender, birth gender, race, religion or other real-life designation you care to name that almost any other poster was. I mean, Steve Geddes I'm pretty sure is an Australian dude, but I couldn't've ever cared if (probably he) was actually a Nigerian princess. So I'm pretty sure I've never knowingly offended anyone here. But now it's starkly clear that there are - in addition to the neutrals - obviously the oppressed and the oppressors. I don't have any interest in interaction with the oppressors (when I can keep track of who they are) because... yuck. I also don't have much interest in interaction with the oppressed for precisely the same reason conversations with seriously ill people suck; they're awkward. Everyone's busy second-guessing themselves. Do I sound like I'm pittying? Do I sound like I'm pittiless? Overthinking interaction isn't fun for anyone, and now that serious, important, crucial topics are very front & center, it's impossible to not think about purple elephants. I'm writing this right now, doubting myself. "Am I going to be thought of as a troll? Or mocking people? Or being condescending? Or any of a dozen other offenses I haven't thought of? Should I just cancel and go away?"
I guarantee you I'm not alone. These forums are now forevermore a serious zone. Regardless of the entrenched sides & stuff.
Afterward: I just want to make it 100% clear that I'm not one of those bemoaning change, or waxing poetic about the days where it was okay to use certain words or have certain attitudes. I strongly advocate enlightenment. I'm solely pointing out that once your comedy club starts hosting simultaneous AA meetings, the stand-up-comics are going to hang up their hats.
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I feel like some people seriously need to browse different threads. Go gush about PF2.0, or chat about what you're cooking for dinner. Tons of fun or chill threads still exist. The OTD is still full of goofs, even if it's not what it once was (mainly due to a combination of the novelty of aliases dying down and people moving on). The homebrew subforums remain incredibly fun and creative.
These just aren't chill fun topics we're on lately. It skews the perspective.
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A block feature isn't a great solution, as it leaves the dog whistling posters active so that other people who haven't blocked their posts have to see their posts in future. It's a band-aid for a limb that needs amputation.
It also runs into awkward issues in threads where you start to lose context for the discussions because there are posts you can't see.
I would rather we just get rid of people who spout hateful ideologies, and not just the ones who are being really explicit about it. Everyone knows what the dog whistle arguments are really saying, so it is pretty much the same as a swear filter - it technically doesn't display the word, but you know what word it is.
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What TOZ said, 100%. I think the sidebar was really undervalued in helping to foster a sense of community. The forums are simply too big to thrive with no connective tissue. They become nuclearized.
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It also runs into awkward issues in threads where you start to lose context for the discussions because there are posts you can't see.
We do need to ban abusers. We also need a block feature. Both are absolutely critical for a healthy community.
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I feel like some people seriously need to browse different threads. Go gush about PF2.0, or chat about what you're cooking for dinner. Tons of fun or chill threads still exist. The OTD is still full of goofs, even if it's not what it once was (mainly due to a combination of the novelty of aliases dying down and people moving on). The homebrew subforums remain incredibly fun and creative.
These just aren't chill fun topics we're on lately. It skews the perspective.
I’m literally always starting Lost Omens threads.