|
This one is result of previous train of thought started yesterday that didn't stop after I slept x'D
So like this is situation of trained armor profiencies at level 1 with 4 dex(counting only item and dex bonuses): Unarmored 4, Light 5, medium 5, heavy 6.
At level 20 max dex you can get is +7 with items and ability boosts, so legendary unarmored would be better than heavy by one... Until you remember that only way to get item bonuses from armor runes to saves and ac is to use clothing or bracers and limit your dex cap to 5 making it equal to light and medium armor instead(though monk would still have one ac higher than master heavy armor classes)......Unless you use Automatic Bonus Progression variant rule. Which would still give unarmored benefit of being best at ac by one ac.
What was point of that calculation? That I reaaaaally don't see why we don't have class that provides legendary profiency in light or medium armor. Heavy armor without automatic bonus progression is always the best so its not about "I'll take off my armor to get higher ac because my dex is my highest stat!" thing. And I don't really buy "but monk loses its identity if it doesn't have second highest ac after champion!" mostly because monk's expert to legendary profiency isn't about giving monk high ac, its about giving monk better ac than spellcasters and keeping them competive with other martials. That and basis of what one of my players keeps talking about, they would prefer legendary unarmed profiency over legendary unarmored if they could choose(and master unarmored would still make them better at dodging than spellcasters) :P Well disregarding "master of punching" vs "master of dodging" opinion, monk still has plenty of much more interesting mobility and action economy gimmicks that I don't really see legendary unarmored being their main draw.
Well even if "legendary profiency at light and/or medium but no heavy" niche never gets filled, I do think some of non fighter martials should have started out with expert profiency even if they still max out at mastery :p Mostly just because severe solobosses system likes still kicks your ass, but you still would get extra anti crit defense and it would make less accurate classes feel tankier early on. But yeah, my main thing here is that I don't really see why we don't have one or two classes with legendary light/medium profiencies.
(actually there is second point here: did we really need unarmored profiency gated by dexterity in default 2e rules? x'D Like I get that if it wasn't gated, there is risk of all rogues and ranged weapon characters fighting unarmored, but it wouldn't really affect non dexterity builds. I really do like idea of super dexterious monk barely out tanking champion in heavy armor, at least before champion uses shield monk decided to not use for aesthetic reasons and keeping both arms free ;P)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But yeah, my main thing here is that I don't really see why we don't have one or two classes with legendary light/medium profiencies.
Champions have Legendary Light and Medium!
I think you are trying your way into this by justifying against the Monk's identity, but I don't see you doing the same vis-a-vis the identity of the class you are portending.
None of the existing classes fit to be legendary in light/medium.
- Swashbucklers have way too many active defences. Offensively they may need a boost but defensively they do well.
- Barbarians are the closest class I could see getting Legendary Light/Medium and not breaking balance, but I think thee class would be better served by losing the AC penalty instead...
- Rangers are too offensively geared to be balanced in having Legendary Light/Medium proficiency.
- Magus got way too much utility and damage to need any baseline defensive boost.
So none of the existing classes are a good fit.
If a good niche could be found for it... I don't see why not!
|
|
I will admit that I was thinking of barbarian when making this thread x'D
Like I pretty much assume paizo won't remove barbarian ac penalty because "that is what people want! Its big important part of flavor of the class!" So in that case I think allowing them legendary medium armor would be sufficient to make them more effective at surviving :D
(though I do think ye forgot about rogue ;D That said I don't really see point for legendary light armor without medium armor, because you might as well not have armor then as pretty much any light armor only class will be dex class)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
What is the actual benefit on making Animal Skin Barbarians better than champions when not raging and as good as champions when raging?
So they get the best damage, match the best armour...
What are they actually losing out on?
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
As I have said before, symmetry is a terrible design goal.
Just because there is a class that has legendary proficiency in one kind of armour does not mean there should be classes with legendary proficiency in each of the other kinds of armour just because of that.
Champions get legendary proficiency in heavy armour because it fits their theme and helps support their special niche.
I am fine if they do eventually add a medium armour class with legendary proficiency, but it should be because it fits the theme and supports the interesting niche of that class, not "because there isn't a legendary proficiency medium armour wearer".
|
|
Didn't know about animal skin barbarian having access to ac bonus equivalent to heavy armor as unarmored, so that is good example of class having ability that would require changes if they had legendary proficiency instead. That said cool to learn about that :O
Also I don't give crap about symmetry(I'm bit sensitive that is what you took away from my post x'D), already said legendary light armor is 100% pointless unless you just want to boost light armor class's ac.
It's more about that I don't think there being class that has legendary medium armor would steal Champion(or monk's)'s niche because all heavy armor classes eventually are better off with heavy armor(and I don't think having high ac is monk's niche). Dex builds need strength for propulsive weapon bonus damage and there are other ways to avoid -5 feet movement penalty.
That said, I'm not really attached to idea of core martial legendary medium armor class(I do think more tanky non heavy armor martial class should be a thing eventually though, I've played as heavy armor champion and not really felt tanky), I'm much more attached to idea of more core martials starting out at expert and maxing out at master because I kinda feel like there should be at least one actually tanky martials at early levels to bit alleviate the unavoidable severe level soloboss crit whackamole
|
Dex oriented monks consistently are either #1 or #2 for best AC, have strong saving throws with more choice than any other class on how to tune them. The "untouchable master who's so good they don't even need armor" is definitely part of Paizo's idea of the monk identity.
And they pay for it with so-so damage dice. The best a Finesse driven monk will get is d8. The non-finesse monks tend to give up a point or even two of AC to get up to a d10 and more strength modifier to damage.
Barbarians meanwhile are the opposite; less good AC, much higher damage per hit.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I could see something like a sword and board Slayer getting legendary in medium armor.
The archetype is basically a bodyguard for sketchy folks. They need the freedom of movement medium armor provides, as well as appearing less conspicuous than a full plated knight. They may patrol a wizard's tower, escort a witch-lord, or stand behind an underworld boss. They handle more magical, alchemical, or trap-based threats than a typical knight-type would, so need the reflexes and mobility.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's possible for a class, but I'm not sure which class - it would have to be one that's thematically built around their defenses being particularly high. That pretty much calls for a built-in defender/tank role in some way. I can sort of see the argument for Slayer, but then we get the question of how we make their protection feature interestingly different from what the Champion gets. What justifies their existence in the first place? What is their Cool Thing that is clearly different from everyone else's Cool Thing?
Other than that, I'd see it as an archetype. Dragging monk up to medium armor is kind of hard/weird to justify. Stripping heavy armor from the champion is a possibility, but it's a bit of an odd place, thematically, and the question becomes what you're doing to justify it, and what you're giving them in return. fighter doesn't work because you're trying to both downgrade their armor and make them more defensive. Too awkward of a thematic shift. The remaining options are all starting with master medium armor characters, and giving them the proficiency boost. There's a fair number of options out there (barbarian, gunslinger, inventor, magus, ranger) or even master light armor characters (alchemist, investigator, rogue, swashbucker). The questions in each case are the same. How do you adjust the theme to explain why this particular variety of X is so defense-focused? What do you give up for the privilege? After all, a bump to armor proficiency (up to max of legendary, no less) is kind of a big deal, both in rarity (only two classes have it currently) and in impact.
It's actually even worse than that. None of these classes are currently really hurting for defenses. None of them need legendary armor as they are. So in addition to giving them that, you'd have to give them some other boost that would make the enemy more inclined to focus on them and leave their more fragile allies alone. You'd have to figure out how to pay for *both* of those things. The fighter rolls with enough stickiness that he wouldn't need the additional justification. You'd just have to focus more heavily on the stickiness options he already has. His obvious pick would be going heavy armor legendary, though, so that doesn't help you here... and none of the other classes listed really do have much in the way of taunt effects.
So... what could you sacrifice that would be worth all that, that wouldn't somehow tear the heart out of the class, for any of these?
Just a quick aside for accuracy's sake: Alchemists were given Master Proficiency in Medium Armor in the errata, so they can be placed with Barbarian, Gunslinger, etc.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
That said, I'm not really attached to idea of core martial legendary medium armor class(I do think more tanky non heavy armor martial class should be a thing eventually though, I've played as heavy armor champion and not really felt tanky), I'm much more attached to idea of more core martials starting out at expert and maxing out at master because I kinda feel like there should be at least one actually tanky martials at early levels to bit alleviate the unavoidable severe level soloboss crit whackamole
If you gave a class faster light or medium armor proficiency, it would just become faster heavy armor progression with the sentinel dedication. Also, clearly low level ACs were capped where they are intentionally. You're never going to get an AC so high a level+3 enemy can't hit or crit you. That completely undercuts the balance point of level+3 solo bosses.
The actual problems with tanking at low levels aren't really connected to AC anyway. The problem is you have less hit points and a smaller level band to pick monsters from. You can really feel like a tank wading into mobs of level-3 or -4 enemies. But at level 1 the lowest you can go is level -2 and they still hit harder than they would relative to that difference at higher levels. There's also the fact that the game's math is set up so you get progressively better at the thing you're best at and get higher odds of success at that thing.
Like, if a shield champion doesn't feel tanky to you, I don't think anything in this edition will. Even at low levels, they get better AC as soon as they have the gold for heavy. Lay on Hands to provide emergency healing, and champion's reaction to actually draw aggro. If you invest in a shield you can take a fair amount of abuse, especially because a level -1 monster might not necessarily overcome 5 hardness.
If you want better AC than the champion, you'd probably have to give up the reaction, at which point why would enemies bother attacking you?