Just a Reminder

[Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti]

Major difference in disagreeing about a game rule or an aspect of the game and disagreeing over the treatment of minorities.

[Themetricsystem]

Give me a break, your cries and bouts of frustration only feed the ego of your antagonists, it's EXACTLY what they want. You can flavor it with spite and snark all you want, it's still perfectly transparent where you're coming from, and shouts of "I'm the victim, they're bullies/bigots" mean nothing to the jerks and perpetrators, don't you understand that?

This is the internet, Paizo is going to have to decide someday soon if they are going to invest another 30-90k per year in salaries in order to maintain the safe space they tried to create here or just nuke everything but PbP and potentially the product discussion threads along with an update to discourage any off-topic discussions. There are no other options on the table unless your demands are that the CS and other Paizo staff should be putting in even MORE hours into trying to keep this place civil, therefore taking them away from other far more profitable and important work than protecting peoples feelings from other anonymous users on their website.

Creating more threads like this is only inviting the vampire into your home. Replying to or engaging with them at all only creates more work and time wasted so that even further inappropriate behavior sits on threads for longer. It's a cycle, and you're feeding it.

[Yoshua]

Imagine if you will, that we aren't doing this for the antagonists attention, but the attention of the moderators that prior to when they let Sara Marie go? This never would have escalated to this scenario.

[Uchuujin]

Have you perhaps heard of the paradox of tolerance?

[Yoshua]

Uchuujin wrote:

Have you perhaps heard of the paradox of tolerance?

I know for a fact they have because I've been quoting it for months.

;)

[Grankless]

I don't give a crap about the bigots or their opinion of me. I know they already hate us. We are voicing our opinions because we want them to be heard. Staying silent and letting these guys continue posting awful things because nothing is ever actually done to them is not the way forward.

[Uchuujin]

Themetricsystem wrote:

This is the internet, Paizo is going to have to decide someday soon if they are going to invest another 30-90k per year in salaries in order to maintain the safe space they tried to create here or just nuke everything but PbP and potentially the product discussion threads along with an update to discourage any off-topic discussions. There are no other options on the table unless your demands are that the CS and other Paizo staff should be putting in even MORE hours into trying to keep this place civil, therefore taking them away from other far more profitable and important work than protecting peoples feelings from other anonymous users on their website.

You're not wrong. But until some sort of action is taken by Paizo threads like this will continue, as we're not going to concede the forums to the bigots.

Edit: Not wrong except for the part about not being important to protect people from would be abusers.

[TwilightKnight]

PreciousFlatbreads wrote:

I am sorry if I offend anyone with my words here.

I'm not. Having open public discourse means there will be a clashing of ideologies and sometimes offense will occur. Its nothing to be afraid of. If you truly believe in what you are saying, you should not be sorry for it even if someone else doesn't like it. OTOH, if you don't believe in what you are saying, then stop talking.

[Heather F]

Hello! I happened to have a quick look and found an awful lot of flags here, yikes.

I understand how frustrating it can be when posts that should be removed, have not been, and how it seems like moderation is all over the place. Well, you're not wrong. We are down two of our strongest forum moderators. In addition to all the things that we have to do on a regular basis in Customer Service (answer emails, run subscriptions, etc and so on and so forth...), we have now been tasked with the job of forum moderation. None of us have the lengthy experience our predecessors did, and we were still very much in the process of learning from them. Not to mention how badly the forums have exploded in the last couple of months, am I right?

I know it doesn't seem like it, but people HAVE been warned, suspended, and even banned in the last couple of months. Unfortunately, our eyes cannot be everywhere, all of the time. We do miss things amidst all of our other tasks. Thank you to those of you that have emailed us about some of the worse fires that needed to be put out. We do greatly appreciate your assistance.

I also know there have been some pretty awful posts. I'm asking once again, begging now, please don't respond, and please don't quote them. Flag it and move on. It makes things so much more difficult for us when we have to read through pages and pages of text to figure out what needs to be removed. If you flag it and act like it never happened, the flagged post can simply be removed, which make things much easier for those of us in Customer Service to not only moderate, but get back to our other tasks.

Like our well respected predecessors before us, we want these forums to be a welcoming place. A place where people come and feel safe. A place where people feel heard and respected. The real world is not always the kindest to everyone. We have the ability to be kind here, flag/ignore those who are not so they can be removed, and create a space that people look forward to coming together on. If that is what you want, we can make that happen, but we need your help.

As far as permanent bans, well, "nothing is permanent in this wicked, wicked world, not even our troubles." Sara Marie believed in second chances. Depending on the circumstances, so do I. There are people that we have banned in the last couple of months that were banned twice, once for being awful humans, and again for creating a second account just so they could continue to be awful. And yet, here on this thread, well, I see you, and your reputation precedes you. Please don't make me regret letting you slide.

Okay, that's enough of my slop. I've removed a few posts for bad language, but other than that I've left a lot of the rest. If you really want me to butcher this thread a bit more, just shoot me an email at [e-mail]. That's also actually the fastest way to get us to put out any fires on the forums, so don't forget that's an option.

Be excellent to each other. Be kind. Listen. Be humble. Be teachable. Be a good person. Peace.

[Cori Marie]

Heather, honestly and sincerely, thank you for all you're doing. You're consistently a bright light and I know this has been just as rough on you guys as it has on the rest of us.

[TOZ]

Uchuujin wrote:

Have you perhaps heard of the paradox of tolerance?

Or the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise?

[keftiu]

Particular Jones misgendering Rysky on the first page of this thread is just gonna stand, huh?

EDIT: Cis folks of these forums, /this/ is why so many of us are acting “abrasive.”

[Kobold Catgirl]

Thank you, Heather. I'm going to think about what you've said here. I still have really mixed feelings on "flag and move on", as well as on the Paizo forums' long-standing policy of "invisible discipline", which is much more "professional" but does tend to lead the original targets kind of in the dark about what transpired. I'll maybe send an email when I have time so I can express it more carefully.

For now, when I see an abusive post, I will try to simply flag it and make a post in some way acknowledging that an abusive post is present without engaging with the post directly. I think "subtweeting" is sort of the easiest answer for now: call out the behavior, but don't name names, so it can be useful to others as general commentary even after the offender has been removed.

I don't know if that's actually what the mods want, but my mind is on those long weekends when abusive posts can stay up for quite a while and the absence of criticism can come across as silent community consent. For now, it's the middle ground I feel comfortable with.

But I want to repeat this: Thank you and the rest of the team so much for your clarity and kindness. I know we're all doing our best with what fuel we have in the tank and what time we have in the day.

[TriOmegaZero]

Maybe just be sincere?

[Kobold Catgirl]

Rysky wrote:

She/They/He are fine by me ^w^

“It” and intentionally “male”ing me in an obvious attempt to misgender? Not so much.

Rysky's pronouns are flexible, but it read to her as an attempt at misgendering. I can see it, since Rysky has primarily been referred to with she/her or they/them on these threads. Jones apologized and asked for the correct pronouns, but then deleted the apology, possibly because someone pointed out that Rysky had just posted his pronouns up above.

Particular Jones wrote:

and how does Rydky prefer I refer to them. Please let me know the correct pronoun.

Jones, I think all anyone expects is a, "Sorry, I wasn't trying to misgender them, I just defaulted to he/him out of force of habit. My bad."

[Yoshua]

the caveat to that was unless someone was intentionally misgendering. Safe if you are trying to stay on the right side of the story to stick with They.

It is what I do for most forums peeps now because you can never get it wrong with They/Them and I would rather make sure I have it right when I post.

[Raychael Allor]

keftiu wrote:

Particular Jones misgendering Rysky on the first page of this thread is just gonna stand, huh?

EDIT: Cis folks of these forums, /this/ is why so many of us are acting “abrasive.”

Done. Like Heather said, feel free to email us directly to posts because the skimming that we have to do in between our customer service work means things are going to get missed.

[Our Lord and Savior Cthulhu]

TOZ wrote:

Uchuujin wrote:

Have you perhaps heard of the paradox of tolerance?

Or the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise?

I'm not surprised. There are a great many things the Customer Service believes... heretical.

[vagrant-poet]

Speaking broadly,on the OPs topic of behavior in a shared public space and the management thereof: If you get given an incredible stretch of belief that something you did was rude and harmful but accidental, loudly bemoaning that you won't be awful in only this narrow way and how clearly you don't think you should have to because it's so much effort for you as if you're the real better person is also being pretty unpleasant.

[Particular Jones]

I clicked on Rysky name and that is what shows up in his profile. Unless they/he /she prefers to be referred to another way. It was honest mistake and I liked to apologize.

[Kobold Catgirl]

So, as a general rule, and I'm not addressing Jones in particular with this, I promise: When people are interpreting someone as saying something transphobic, it's often counterproductive to react with, "That's stupid, they're wrong, I'm not transphobic and I can prove it!"

A bigger concern should usually be, "Oh, they think that I'm transphobic? It worries me that trans people might feel uncomfortable around me. Even if I'm not actually transphobic, I want to address how I came across that way."

Even if you really are being misconstrued, which sounds like the mindset that leads to a healthier discourse and better relationships with other community members? You can't force other people to have better reading comprehension, nor to trust you more, but you can choose to curb your reflex to "defend" yourself and focus on clarifying your intent and apologizing for the confusion--which will have the handy side effect of showing those who called you out that, hey, sometimes it's just a misunderstanding, maybe this is a safe community to not come out guns blazing in. And then they'll trust you a bit more next time!

It takes two to tango, and I feel like a lot of people are expecting queer posters to always be "the bigger person" and try to deescalate. But, like, you can do that too! Someone can be snippy at you and you can choose not to retaliate in "equal" measure. That's what I mean when I keep saying "give trans people grace right now". Remember, as hard as it feels to be polite to someone who seems to be "attacking" you, that's pretty close to how it feels for us to be polite to you when you seem to be "attacking" us.

[Andy Brown]

It's a standard tactic with some people
DARVO

[Leon Aquilla]

Saedar wrote:

It is ok, lil buddy. I know that it is hard to have a good faith thought. Just in case, though: this is very clearly about supporting evidence of a long history of consistently abusive behavior and not banning people solely on the favoriting of a post.

Complex logical analysis, I know, but I believe you can get there eventually.

You didn't actually disagree with me, you just said "but this poster deserves it". And then a page later it turns out that was a gross overreaction.

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

How about a nice game of Pathfinder Second Edition?

[Kobold Catgirl]

Huh. I feel like I promised to gnaw on an ankle the other day and never got around to it. Oh well. I'm sure that ankle's owner is playing nice today, having realized on their own that they acted inappropriately. I lost my biting privileges anyways.

Anyways, Leon, is it? If you don't want to take part in these discussions, you might be happier leaving these threads be.

[TOZ]

Nah, he's just a reply guy.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Ain't that just the way.

[BigNorseWolf]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Tangent about arguments Is me proving I'm right really the most important priority right now?"--they seem to be treating that as a reason to get angry, to blame trans people for "misunderstanding" them.

The most important thing? No. An important thing? Yes.

When people keep seeing you use an either or arugments (like the one there) , dividing everything into binary, and then treat everything they're saying as a binary.. YES. Maybe the problem is you're not getting the nuance. Maybe the problem is that you have a worldview they don't share , are using language in a way you don't use it, and they're saying something and you hear something else completely.

It may not be the most important thing, but it is the thing getting in the way of everything else. Besides so long and thanks for all the flanks of meat, I really don't see how else the conversation can go when its not possible to have a conversation.

For starters, you've made it clear that trans-phobic is a terrible thing to be. And it is. So when you call people transphobic you are calling them a terrible person. It is the same as calling someone a ()*#()$(*#$ a #()$#$()* or a ()#()#$*. When you call people that without cause you are going to get a pretty severe response. And justifiably so.

There is no reasonable expectation that when you insult someone like that they have to shut up and take it, especially when it's unwarranted. It doesn't matter what group you're a member of that they're not. You're insulting a PERSON. A fellow human being. Treating humans beings as having different rights depending on what group they belong to tends to go... poorly. Acting like your group is the only one that matters goes even worse.

On a practical level, if you keep getting that unwanted reaction from people when you do something, don't do the thing causing it. Keep transphobic for the big stuff and don't apply it to everything from using transgendered instead of transgender or the phrase "preferred pronouns" instead of "pronouns"* to internet people being argumentative. If ya'll are tossing the term off like it's nothing people are going to treat the accusation like it's nothing. There are levels in between the bleeding edge of correct terminology and transphobic.

*note, this is not describing misgendering. If you reached that conclusion, please re read.

[Cori Marie]

I have only called people on this forum transphobic if they have behaved that way. If they don't like the fit of their shoe, they should try on a different pair.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Calling an action transphobic is not an insult. It is a criticism of behavior. Calling a person a transphobe is different.

I also think that calling "transphobe" an insult is an oversimplification, for the record. It's not like calling someone "stupid" or "asshat". It's a deep personal criticism, yes, but it has content and context to it. It's not designed to hurt someone's feelings, it's designed to describe tangible things. But I don't use "transphobe" to refer to someone who says something stupid, not when I can help it.

But yeah, I'll call behavior transphobic. I do so often. If that offends someone, I understand that reaction--nobody likes being criticized, and I always try to be as gentle as I can be with my criticism if I believe them to be acting in good faith. But their hurt feelings are not a higher priority than how their bad behavior is affecting others. A priority? Sure, of course. Nuance. But I'm not going to withhold criticism because someone engaging in transphobic behavior, intentionally or no, might feel insulted.

And I kind of expect a reasonable adult, hearing that a trans person feels something they are saying or doing may be transphobic, to act like an adult and listen.

[Andy Brown]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Calling an action transphobic is not an insult. It is a criticism of behavior. Calling a person a transphobe is different.

It's also not (usually) an insult

[Kobold Catgirl]

I clarified my post, because you're right, calling "transphobe" an insult also isn't really accurate or clear.

[thejeff]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

On a practical level, if you keep getting that unwanted reaction from people when you do something, don't do the thing causing it. Keep transphobic for the big stuff and don't apply it to everything from using transgendered instead of transgender or the phrase "preferred pronouns" instead of "pronouns"* to internet people being argumentative. If ya'll are tossing the term off like it's nothing people are going to treat the accusation like it's nothing. There are levels in between the bleeding edge of correct terminology and transphobic.

This also seems to be pretty dismissive. Unless I'm missing a lot, the things getting called out around here aren't nearly as trivial as the examples you're using. (Other than "internet people being argumentative", which is vague enough to be useless.) That may happen elsewhere on the internets, but it doesn't seem to me like the problems here are rooted in trans folk and their allies being needlessly nitpicky.

[BigNorseWolf]

thejeff wrote:

That may happen elsewhere on the internets, but it doesn't seem to me like the problems here are rooted in trans folk and their allies being needlessly nitpicky.

Those are all direct examples from these boards I believe one is from this thread.

[Albatoonoe]

I don't post all that often, but I do spend a lot of time on these forums. It is one of my homes on the internet. It's disheartening to see the hostility that has crept it's way in. I'm also very sympathetic to the plight of CS. It's a tough situation.

Sometimes, it is good to have humility and just say "Sorry, I was wrong about that". If someone calls you out on something, you don't have to double down. What people want is for offenders to try.

Nobody is perfect and we all mess up from time to time. It's okay to make mistakes and be wrong, as long as you can accept that and try and do better.

[Kobold Catgirl]

I think "internet people being argumentative" is about the opinion I expressed earlier that repeatedly derailing these threads--whether it be to pursue petty personal vendettas against users you don't like, to scold about tone, to complain about these threads existing because "what's the point", or to start fights about how trans posters are starting too many fights--has transphobic consequences, even if they are not intended to be so.

We are trying to talk about problems faced by trans community members or employees. Spamming these threads with, "Ugh, I hate these threads, why won't they get locked already," for instance*, is (unintentionally) transphobic because the intended consequence is to shut down trans people from discussing the ways they may be made to feel unwelcome in the community. It's not about the poster being a transphobe, it's about how their actions affect others.

Many of these posters are totally oblivious to that consequence. That is a valid explanation, but it doesn't change the nature of the behavior, only the intent. And intent matters, don't get me wrong! But if they are then repeatedly mistaken for transphobes because their actions are having transphobic effects... getting mad about that and blaming oversensitive trans people is really not the answer.

*Multiple posters have expressed this sentiment, but I don't believe that BNW is one of them, to be clear.

[Catulle]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

thejeff wrote:

That may happen elsewhere on the internets, but it doesn't seem to me like the problems here are rooted in trans folk and their allies being needlessly nitpicky.

Those are all direct examples from these boards I believe one is from this thread.

Your recent posting activity ran a jewish poster back off into lurk-mode after they tried to explain some cultural context. I feel it may be worth your entertaining the possibility that your calibration is off on this regard.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Let's not cross-post. I don't want to take this thread off-course. <3

[thejeff]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

thejeff wrote:

That may happen elsewhere on the internets, but it doesn't seem to me like the problems here are rooted in trans folk and their allies being needlessly nitpicky.

Those are all direct examples from these boards I believe one is from this thread.

I can't find either - though the search brings up "transgender" responses along with "transgendered". I do have a vague memory of someone pointing out that "transgendered" isn't preferred, but I don't know if anyone was called transphobic over it.

The only place "Preferred pronouns" comes up is Particular Jones's post earlier in this thread and while he was taking some heat in that sequence of posts, no one commented on "preferred pronouns" being bad.

Of course anything could have been deleted, but there are plenty of comments about transphobia still around and they're not tied to nitpicky details as far as I can see.

[vagrant-poet]

In fairness, this thread is about how repeatedly bigoted posters suffer no consequences beyond the limits of a thread, if even that.

It's bad stuff to cross-post in 99% of situations, but IMO it's relevant here. These posters posit that no harm exists except physical, then accuse people in the next thread of not understanding nuance, while portraying anyone else in non-existent carictured extremes, and begging for space for their very serious genuine opinions which always happen to align with all the exact same people who use phrases only common in reactionary spheres.

And the mad thing is, it's only the blatant repetition that makes it obvious.

Those patterns of outing themselves matter. They should have weight in moderation, because without ot you get deliberate misgendering that can't be demonstrated within only the confines of a thread, followed by no consequences, an insincere apology and immediately liking all posts describing being held accountable for the above as a witch-hunt, etc, etc, ad nauseam.

[thejeff]

vagrant-poet wrote:

In fairness, this thread is about how repeatedly bigoted posters suffer no consequences beyond the limits of a thread, if even that.

It's bad stuff to cross-post in 99% of situations, but IMO it's relevant here. These posters posit that no harm exists except physical, then accuse people in the next thread of not understanding nuance, while portraying anyone else in non-existent carictured extremes, and begging for space for their very serious genuine opinions which always happen to align with all the exact same people who use phrases only common in reactionary spheres.

And the mad thing is, it's only the blatant repetition that makes it obvious.

Those patterns of outing themselves matter. They should have weight in moderation, because without ot you get deliberate misgendering that can't be demonstrated within only the confines of a thread, followed by no consequences, an insincere apology and immediately liking all posts describing being held accountable for the above as a witch-hunt, etc, etc, ad nauseam.

Some of that might be best pointed out in email to the moderators, as I think Tonya suggested. Draw the connections there that might not be obvious while they're swamped deleting half the thread.

[TwilightKnight]

vagrant-poet wrote:

In fairness, this thread is about how repeatedly bigoted posters suffer no consequences beyond the limits of a thread, if even that.

I think it would be a better characterization that repeatedly bigoted (or other offenses) posters do not suffer any consequences that are visible to the people who want them sanctioned. I once received a 3-day ban for something I had said nearly fours months after the fact and Paizo could not even specify what I said or where it was posted that violated their forum rules. If someone had flagged the original post, it would certainly appear as if nothing happened, but in fact it was, just not probably to their standards.

Or course that is probably an extreme example and I would expect that Paizo would generally react more quickly, but most seem to accept Paizo's excuse that they have limited time and resources to react to many of the forum complaints so offenders can often continue to post for hours, days or even weeks before proper sanctioning can be enacted.

Also remember that generally speaking, sanctions should be the method by which we encourage change. So, if someone says something deemed to violate the forum rules, they should be sanctioned yes, but more importantly, they should be clearly notified of the sanction and exactly why. To do otherwise almost guarantees they will not learn to correct their behavior.

Its probably too much to expect given the limited resources that Paizo devotes to this process, but they probably should maintain a history of users who have their posts scrubbed or are sanctioned. If someone has been banned a dozen times for essentially the same reason, it is pretty clear that they are either unable or unwilling to correct their behavior and should be considered for a permanent ban.

EDIT--Sorry, that was much longer than I intended

[Tonya Woldridge]

Removed a post that was baiting. At this point, I'm asking you, yes you there, each of you, to look at your posts and how you contribute to the conversation. Snark, deliberately antagonizing others, and brushing off concerns isn't going to help the conversation at all. It just muddies the moderation waters and makes it more difficult to see the people that need active moderation. The flags/removed posts can blur in your mind after awhile.

[Kobold Catgirl]

I agree with TK's post, I think. I also think the whole "we don't comment on banned accounts" rule may need a bit more nuance, especially when it comes to targeted harassment. If Alice gets harassed and bullied by Bob, and then the mods ban Bob the Bully, Alice deserves to know that Bob the Bully has been banned. If Eve has been posting evil, bigoted remarks in threads across the forums, and the mods evaluate, then evict Eve the Evil, it may be appropriate to make a clear announcement so people are aware that behaving evilly like Eve will evidently evince eviction.

Um, sorry. Got carried away. I mean so the people who were made to feel unsafe (or, on the other side, emboldened) by Eve's behavior know the behavior has consequences and is not welcome on the site.

Honestly, this may already be standard practice, but I'm not so sure.

[Umbral Reaver]

Agreed.

We do not feel safe. And a number of posters who may have had a bunch of deleted posts are still posting bigoted arguments nonetheless.

[WormysQueue]

keftiu wrote:

EDIT: Cis folks of these forums, /this/ is why so many of us are acting “abrasive.”

I understand and even sympathize with that. Problem being of course (and I speak from experience) that it can easily turn you into the bad person in the eyes of the moderation while the trolls are having a field day with having you brought down to their level.

Also keeps people like me from posting at all because I don't agree with you (general you, as in: the good guys) all the time with everything you say and I don't want to be in the crossfire just by being confused with the trolls for not agreeing 100%.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Honestly, Wormys, I get it. I do. But we're doing our best. The problem isn't us sometimes losing our tempers, it's how many effing trolls there are to begin with. That's not a normal situation to have to deal with. And the mods are doing their best with that, but this situation isn't normal at all, in any way. In an aberrant environment, everyone's going to be imperfect. That includes us.

But, and this is not about you, promise, I'm getting really tired of oversensitive cis people acting like nobody has ever been treated as cruelly and inhumanely as they have been... because some trans girl said they were "acting childish".

Like, I'm sure I regret that happening to them, but... what, is it a slow news day?

[WormysQueue]

I'm certainly not expecting perfection from anybody. Heck, that experience I was talking about was me nearly being banned from another board for getting so fed up with certain trolls that I started to retaliate in equal measure.

As far as the oversensitivity goes, I can only talk from my own perspective. There are obvious trolls, of course, but I think a lot of it also has to do with the history of RPGs and who played them. I mean, there are probably a lot of us older guys that stepped into the world of RPGs to escape from a world were felt like we didn't belong, where we weren't accepted and even bullied and harassed because we didn't conform to certain societal norms of the time. So RPGS were our safe space and with that comes a certain tendency of gatekeeping (because it's OUR safe space).

Now that RPGs suddenly have become the cool thing to do, not only do we have to share that space with the new guys, but now those new guys also start to tell us what we did wrong the whole time (which probably is especially infuriating when there's a grain of truth to it). And suddenly my safe space doesn't feel that safe anymore.

maybe I read too much into it, but sometimes I think that all this childish behaviour (and of course, it's childish) has it's roots in the thought of "you wanna feel safe too? Hey, great, but why don't you go feel safe somewhere else? because this is my territory". It's a gut reaction to feeling threatened, which is a completely irrational feeling, that needs to be confronted head on. But it's also what happens in a lot of other areas in society right now.

Doesn't excuse troll behaviour, that's for sure.