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Thing is, before the firing of Sara Marie and Diego quitting in support?
I know for a fact many people, people in this thread, were regularly put on posting time outs for a metric crap ton less than the homophobic slurs and constant abuse I have seen over the last 2 months being let slide under current moderation.
A week of not being able to post is not the end of the world and is the absolute MINIMUM that would be expected for someone intentionally misgendering or attacking someone based on sexual orientation.
And yet 2 months later, here we are, just letting it slide with at MOST a post being deleted and then the person rightfully defending themselves losing all of the posts they did in defense if they accidentally quoted the abuser, or the current mods think that defending ones self against a homophobic abuser is out of line.
So, if you are just coming to the table without the experience of the last 2 months?
I get why you would feel this is an unnecessary post. Sad thing is I see so many faces here that have been here the entire time. Some of them would have had more than a post removed if we had Sara Marie on board still.
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And, speaking personally, I don't care if the community guidelines technically disallow telling bigots they are bigots and aren't welcome. Rules that don't make for a more diverse, welcoming, and human environment aren't worth the time it took to write them.
Since the topic is moderation: If I get banned for doing the above, that is fine in the community guidelines situation but it also tells me that Paizo has a preference for defenders of abuse over those who call for accountability. Who you allow in your community defines the nature of said community.
No nazi bars, etc.
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"Please point out how I regularly break the rules."
While not a straight out violation of the guidelines as written, only providing quotes of others in quotes (as I have done above) rather than using quote markup in an attempt to bypass post moderation when an original post is deleted due to moderation is probably the most obvious one.
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You know, if Gorbacz was here he would be amused that he got e-mail from Paizo's then-still-COO telling him to "quit antagonizing people during a difficult time in American politics" but folks can apparently run around doing what they're doing now without any major apparent consequences.
Yep Jeff, you knew that one will come back to you some day :) Sorry guys, you're not cool enough to have the CEO e-mail you, you're simply not the same league.
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I actually started using “” quotes because doing the"Please point out how I regularly break the rules."
While not a straight out violation of the guidelines as written, only providing quotes of others in quotes (as I have done above) rather than using quote markup in an attempt to bypass post moderation when an original post is deleted due to moderation is probably the most obvious one.
for every line was getting to be too much of a time eater and hassle for me.
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Here’s the thing Particular Jones/Memorax* (making a new account to get a round a ban is a bannable offense by the way), I’m not asking for the rules to treat me differently. I’m asking for the rules to be applied, period.
*Someone linked the moderator reply, both your accounts over there be banned.
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And, speaking personally, I don't care if the community guidelines technically disallow telling bigots they are bigots and aren't welcome.
It's more than a technicality. This too can be and is over used as a cover for just insulting people. But you're probably fine as long as you treat it as a nuclear option and nuke responsibly.
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(making a new account to get a round a ban is a bannable offense by the way)
Hey Rysky, wh...why so serious?
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It's pretty concerning to me that the reaction to Rysky's thread is such pure hostility when almost nobody actually seems to disagree with them--it's just a mix of "I don't think I understand you, so I'm going to lash out assuming I'm right instead of asking questions" and "I agree, but I think Rysky is rude sometimes, so I'm going to derail this thread making personal attacks against her."
I fully agree with the OP. I honestly really don't like how casually the thread is being targeted for derailment over personal gripes, because this is important. Moderation is more than just deleting posts and locking threads, even though that is an important component of deescalation. Bans, probations, temporary locks, emailed warnings, and sometimes even reaching out to those who've been targeted are all very important components as well. It doesn't feel great to see the same faces stirring up the same mischief week after week.
The fact is, there's not a lot to argue about with everything going on. Everyone knows the allegations are true, and everyone knows they're serious. When people keep starting fights anyways, keep getting into trouble, that's a recurring pattern of hostile conflict-seeking behavior, and that needs to be addressed immediately. Honestly, sometimes I wish we could just have people tempbanned from particular subforums.
And so the contrarianism starts to come across as a deep apathy that undermines any expressions of support for trans people they occasionally make. Their determination to prove their points about how x trans user goes too far, how y trans issue is being talked about too much, and their certainty that proving these things is worth undermining and derailing the original topics tackling transphobia, doesn't just come across as transphobic. It is transphobic. Its effects are transphobic and its messaging is transphobic regardless of what you think is your intent. It is transphobic to repeatedly target trans posters like this, and it is transphobic to repeatedly derail threads focused on transphobic harassment in order to continue petty personal vendettas.
And I'm really tired of it, because I know a lot of the people who are doing it are basically just on autopilot, handling this like any other big forum debate. They want to prove their point, and they're mad that trans people have the gall to question their motives.
But I do. I question their motives. I question their priorities and I question their unwillingness to change their behavior in the face of repeated moderator reprimands and overwhelming community callouts. Stop putting ego and grudges and pet issues above addressing transphobia. And if you won't stop, you're gonna have to develop a thicker skin to being told you don't care about trans people, because on some level I am not sure you really do.
Also, for what it's worth, I'm given to understand Rysky has fairly flexible pronouns? But I don't want to speak for her on that. I also think we have an ongoing problem with some posters' bizarre reluctance to use "they".
A lot of these problems would have been a lot easier to navigate if we had an optional pronoun bar next to our username, like how the PvP forums have Gender/Race/Class/Level next to alias names.
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BTW I was not banned from rpg.net. I can go back anytime I chose to walk away from that site.
Did you not expect anyone to check RPG.net to see if you were lying? Apparently, you were so lazy that you used the same account name to ban evade on both Paizo and RPG.net.
EDIT:To clarify. I was the one who looked up the ban and Rysky noticed the ban evade on Paizo.
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Fundamentally, there is no reason to even think it's reasonable to allow bigotry in a public forum.
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(making a new account to get a round a ban is a bannable offense by the way)Hey Rysky, wh...why so serious?
Why do you ask, handsome stranger?
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Also, LOL @ getting yourself publicly banned on one forum with a sock puppet account and starting a new account on another forum with the same name and kvetching about that ban so obviously that it takes 3 seconds of googling to rat you out. Galaxy brain there, ascending the planes of reality to shine like a supernova.
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Why do you ask, handsome stranger?(making a new account to get a round a ban is a bannable offense by the way)Hey Rysky, wh...why so serious?
Because I only now got to know this Risky fellow and they passed off as an amicable and fluffy if slightly spiky hedgehog, and here they go so s-serious about big things, makes me a bit n-nervous.
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Oh, also, an addendum to my big tangent: All of that is assuming the best possible reading, i.e. "people who genuinely do think of themselves as supporting trans people but who have let that issue become secondary to proving some other petty point, even if it comes at our expense".
But the truth is, a lot of those people have since taken a step back, realized they weren't really doing what they thought they were doing, and adjusted their behavior or left. I have immense respect for them.
And the best possible reading isn't necessarily the most definitely accurate reading for people who are still going at this two months later without a hint of doubt in their hearts.
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“Also, for what it's worth, I'm given to understand Rysky has fairly flexible pronouns?”
She/They/He are fine by me ^w^
“It” and intentionally “male”ing me in an obvious attempt to misgender? Not so much.
10000000%.
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Join me in slapping pronouns on your profile, friends. Then you too can get a ban-evading third party producer to type incorrect pronouns in all-caps and get in trouble because he's mad at you.
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How do you misgender a bag?
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Bug, bog, big...
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Back on topic, I know that many have lamented how it seems like nobody just flags and moves on lately. The thing is, the fact that we don't see any meaningful consequences from our side of the screen for abusive or toxic behavior is a huge part of the reason for that. We engage because without visible consequences for misbehavior, our best and only recourse is to call the misbehavior out explicitly, for the community to come together and condemn it.
I know it makes things harder for the mods, and I don't like it at all, but we're not the ones making it difficult. The abusive posters are. This is really the only tool the community has for maintaining safety norms in the perceived absence of bans and account locks.
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It's pretty concerning to me that the reaction to Rysky's thread is such pure hostility when almost nobody actually seems to disagree with them--it's just a mix of "I don't think I understand you, so I'm going to lash out assuming I'm right instead of asking questions" and "I agree, but I think Rysky is rude sometimes, so I'm going to derail this thread making personal attacks against her."
I fully agree with the OP. I honestly really don't like how casually the thread is being targeted for derailment over personal gripes, because this is important. Moderation is more than just deleting posts and locking threads, even though that is an important component of deescalation. Bans, probations, temporary locks, emailed warnings, and sometimes even reaching out to those who've been targeted are all very important components as well. It doesn't feel great to see the same faces stirring up the same mischief week after week.
The fact is, there's not a lot to argue about with everything going on. Everyone knows the allegations are true, and everyone knows they're serious. When people keep starting fights anyways, keep getting into trouble, that's a recurring pattern of hostile conflict-seeking behavior, and that needs to be addressed immediately. Honestly, sometimes I wish we could just have people tempbanned from particular subforums.
** spoiler omitted **...
Agree with everything you said here.
Commentary though. When we make a name for ourselves and people remember who we are? Then that is going to shade every interaction we have with the people who remember us.
I regularly get DM's from people who believe that just because I am agreeing with them in that thread that we have formed a bond or alliance.
That isn't the way the real world works. I sometimes agree with people and sometimes disagree with people. If I feel someone has taken it to a personal level I often times disengage and/or flag and report.
Right now that last option just isn't possible. Seeing as Rysky makes this fairly tame post asking for more accountability in moderation. Something that anyone who doesn't try to skirt the rules should be in favor of.
And the same people that some of us wish were being handed more than just a deleted post jump in and jump down Rysky's throat for asking for more moderation just sort of proves the point that more is needed.
Not all of them, but definitely some who are amplifying that point of view are.
And that is because standing up for what you think is right will make you a target. We shouldn't have to position our views in a way that the abusers can stomach. That is one of the things I respect about Rysky's posts. Even if they sometimes get them in hot water they never position their view in a way to make it more palatable to the people they are talking to.
Either you agree with them or you don't. Often times when people get confronted with that form of dialogue they take it personal. A bunch of posts above kind of prove that.
Who is the hell is menorax? I am not that poster. Thank you for showing that some here are willing to stalk me to another forum.
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The problem with a block option is that while now I'm protected from their bigotry, other people aren't. That doesn't sit well with me.If Pazio accounts are linked to purchases that makes for a big mess trying to moderate.
In Second life you have the option to block and mute other individual accounts yourself so you don't see what they're saying and they can't see what you're saying. It's at least quick personal protection from people being harmful without needing to wait for moderation.
(jokingly) I like to blame all the arguments on the forums on Paizo for not publishing a new 200-page book every day to keep us too busy to even read the forums.
I starting to think that for many here the community is the main product Paizo provides them. For me, I don't currently know anyone offline that plays starfinder or pathfinder and my work schedule makes it very hard to even try to meet new people offline, and until I can afford to replace my old and dying computer online play is not an option. So coming here to the Forums is what keeps me connected to the game until I can start playing it.
This is why I said, "without needing to wait for moderation" perhaps it would be clearer if I had said, "while you wait for moderation." It's a short-term tool, not a final solution.
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The sheer level of hostility, and lack of decisive chud suspensions have changed my faith in "Flag and move on", a few months ago I found that it did work mostly.
I don't feel that's the case anymore.
Autocorrect nightmare it seems it gets worse with every new IPhone.
As no one else can refer to themselves on the internet as the same name I use here and no that is not the name I go by on that forum.
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As no one else can refer to themselves on the internet as the same name I use here and no that is not the name I go by on that forum.
Very convincing. I think they fell for it.
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I can tell you don't actually read other people's posts, Jones, because Rysky already wrote the appropriate pronouns.
Also gee, that sure is a weird coincidence that those extremely specific names would both belong to similar posters on RPG forums. What a wild and crazy world.
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I can tell you don't actually read other people's posts, Jones, because Rysky already wrote the appropriate pronouns.
Also gee, that sure is a weird coincidence that those extremely specific names would both belong to similar posters on RPG forums. What a wild and crazy world.
More importantly, PJ has been in many other threads where they have favourited deliberate misgenders, and in fact have no reason to not know the correct pronoun, and every reason to be suspected of deliberate misgendering, because again, of the pattern of supporting that behavior.
On queue, of course, it's "how was I supposed to know?". Because the playbook is trite and repetitive for reactionaries. And repeatedly doing stuff like that should get them suspended if we're being real.
Not because they have "different opinions", because of a deliberate pattern of abusive anti-social behavior.
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Thing is, if this space allowed to become a safe haven for hate speech then it's already lost, and there are people willing to fight tooth and nail to prevent that, even if they get bruised and bloodied in the process.
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Once again asking minorities to just ignore this is in fact encouraging the behavior to continue.
Will say though that this time I am not seeing it as an attack, more a statement of frustration.
Seeing things from the lens of the minority is hard if you live in a place of privilege. Harder if you don't believe you do.
Having this thread go sideways was pretty much inevitable seeing as it is calling for defense of people who are under persecution.
Metric isn't wrong, there really was no other way this thread could go. But I feel Rysky understood that when they started it and may have hoped they were wrong but knew that it was highly likely.
Metric: We aren't looking to keep peace with people who are actively causing harm. We are looking for recognition for the people being harmed. Can't do that if we remain silent.
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More importantly, PJ has been in many other threads where they have favourited deliberate misgenders,
Can't wait to be banned because I favorited the wrong post.
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Can't wait to be banned because I favorited the wrong post.
More importantly, PJ has been in many other threads where they have favourited deliberate misgenders,
Context is everything. But don't worry. Under current moderation no one gets banned regardless of the intentional damage they are causing.
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Can't wait to be banned because I favorited the wrong post.
More importantly, PJ has been in many other threads where they have favourited deliberate misgenders,
It is ok, lil buddy. I know that it is hard to have a good faith thought. Just in case, though: this is very clearly about supporting evidence of a long history of consistently abusive behavior and not banning people solely on the favoriting of a post.
Complex logical analysis, I know, but I believe you can get there eventually.