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I recently shared a Rogue build concept I came up with on Reddit (The build can also be seen towards the bottom of this thread). One of the comments I received was
Saves matter but you may have invested more than you need in those, a feat, two talents, a trait and an alternate racial trait (~4.5 feats worth total) seems like overinvestment to me.
My question to you is, how much should you invest in saves? I have never neglected them and am always relieved to pass saving throws at higher levels. My biggest fear is murdering my party.
That comes to my topic of conversation, how much should we invest in propping up our saving throws?
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I usually go by THIS. It's a spreadsheet of all the average DCs for each level .
Yellow = 50% chance of saving, green = 70%- blue = 95%.
You can aim for whatever you want, but I think green is good.
As to how much you need to invest? Depends how bad your saves are.
If you're already dealing good damage, and your AC and HP are solid then you don't need to invest in those. There's no correct amount, just ehatever you need.
Orc feroci9ty does not do much for rogues so trading it out for sacred tattoo is a very good trade. If you were a paladin or other class with swift healing that would be different. So I would consider that an upgrade on an ability instead of a trade. You turned something fairly useless into something very good. Using Fates Favored to boost that is also a good investment. So taking both of those is a smart move. You already are getting +2 to your fortitude save from CON and no one is questioning its worth. So what it really comes down to is Iron Will worth it.
Will save not only help you maintain control over your character by avoiding charm spells, they also allow you to see through illusions. For a rogue that can be incredibly useful. I don’t think taking iron will is overkill for this character. Taking great fortitude would not be worth it, but Iron will looks good.
Good question.
Short answer: Quite a bit.
Long answer: Dex, Con, and Wisdom are never dump stats... and will always start with at least a 12 in all three stats no matter what class or build I am looking to start. There are excetions, such as an Undead characer or certain Kobolds or rare archetypes that switch your Will save to something besides Wisdom. But, generally, always a 12 or more in those three stats.
On any class with a poor Will save, I usually start with a Will save trait, and have Iron Will by level 9.
On a Wisdom-based, 9/9 spellcasting class... likely to end with a ~28 Wisdom... I have went without Iron Will, but will gladly throw it in there if I already have stuff like Improved Initiative covered.
Outside of starting with a 12+, the belt usually is all the investment I put into Fortitude/Reflex saves. I very, VERY rarely even consider feats for those saves unless it is proving to be a weakness that must be addressed, or the feat is prerequisite to something I actually want. I am WAY more likely to take Additional Traits to grab traits to try fix my apparent flaws. If I know that I must make saves a priority... Shaman's Apprentice Half-Orc with Sacred Tattoos and Fate's Favored. Probably still throw something like Carefully Hidden or Freed Slave on there, too.
But I try not let MY survival take priority over good story for everyone at the table. Sometimes sacrifices must be made for the greater good. Sometimes you need to be a Helpful Halfling, and not an Orc. I have pushed Iron Will out to level 11-13 before, in order to have Deific and Diverse Obediennce before 10HD... the story must go on. None of my characters have ever proven to be the weak link, like ever, so I generally have room for fun, story-driven stuffs [even in my most murderhobo characters].
I prioritize my saving throws higher than attack/damage and AC. My character works within a team and if I can't contribute, that team suffers. So what if I miss a little more often or get hit a little more often? At least I am not becoming a serious liability to my party, or worse, turning against them.
Each class has things they are naturally good at that really don't need much investment to stay good. You polish those up and you support the weaker parts of the character with serious scaffolding. That's my take on it, anyway.
I don't invest anything extra into saves, I just get whatever the class gives, plus whatever my stats happen to add to them. I've noticed that by about 12th level, characters almost never fails saving throws unless they roll a 1.
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I don't invest anything extra into saves, I just get whatever the class gives, plus whatever my stats happen to add to them. I've noticed that by about 12th level, characters almost never fails saving throws unless they roll a 1.
? Explain? A poor save at 12th level is +4. Add +2 for a 14 Wis/Dex/Con and +2 for a cloak is +8. I doubt your opponents at 12th level are putting out attacks at DC10. Even a good save with a 22 stat is +8+6+2=+16, and DC20 is routine at that level.
I don't invest anything extra into saves, I just get whatever the class gives, plus whatever my stats happen to add to them. I've noticed that by about 12th level, characters almost never fails saving throws unless they roll a 1.? Explain? A poor save at 12th level is +4. Add +2 for a 14 Wis/Dex/Con and +2 for a cloak is +8. I doubt your opponents at 12th level are putting out attacks at DC10. Even a good save with a 22 stat is +8+6+2=+16, and DC20 is routine at that level.
the DCs for 12th level player cast spells are 20, the DC's for spells cast by bad guys in the APs are usually 2-3 points lower than that.
Some DC's (like poisons and traps) do not scale with level. Most poisons are typically DC18 or lower.
In my experience, when playing Paizo APs, unless the save is specifically against your poor stat/save, you have roughly a 25% chance or less of failing it at 12th level, and as you approach 17-20th levels, you'll pretty much only fail on a 1 or 2.
I don't invest anything extra into saves, I just get whatever the class gives, plus whatever my stats happen to add to them. I've noticed that by about 12th level, characters almost never fails saving throws unless they roll a 1.? Explain? A poor save at 12th level is +4. Add +2 for a 14 Wis/Dex/Con and +2 for a cloak is +8. I doubt your opponents at 12th level are putting out attacks at DC10. Even a good save with a 22 stat is +8+6+2=+16, and DC20 is routine at that level.the DCs for 12th level player cast spells are 20, the DC's for spells cast by bad guys in the APs are usually 2-3 points lower than that.
Some DC's (like poisons and traps) do not scale with level. Most poisons are typically DC18 or lower.
In my experience, when playing Paizo APs, unless the save is specifically against your poor stat/save, you have roughly a 25% chance or less of failing it at 12th level, and as you approach 17-20th levels, you'll pretty much only fail on a 1 or 2.
Also, remember those DC20's are for their max level spells. their 1st level spells with be DC 13-18, easily beatable with a 16 save + roll.
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Well, there is a DC 41 Will save in Strange Aeons at lvl 8! An extreme case admittedly. :)
There's also the Tatterman, the boss that you meet at lvl 3: DC 17 Fear effects.