The Pouncing Rogue - How to always be charging?

[Minigiant]

I enjoyed my foray with a Rogue and its skills, so many skills, so much in a recent one shot that I'm planning another Rogue in the hope that I can one day run tem in a longer campaign.

I am currently in that phase of reading a lot of archetypes and talents and seeing what I can piece together into something cool.

One combo I have not seen mentioned on the internet of wisdom is comboing Swordmaster (Tengu with Scout to "pounce" (Tiger Trance) and get sneak attack (Scout’s Charge) on all your attacks. That sounds like fun. Of course the problem you run into (along with the problems of sneak attack not always working versus certain enemies) is being unable to charge every turn.

So I am turning to you, is there a way of charging an enemy that is adjacent to you?

[MrCharisma]

RHINO CHARGE

Move away from the enemy (you'll probably nail the acrobatics check to avoid AoOs) and then ready an action to charge them "if anyone does anything".

[Wonderstell]

Minigiant wrote:

One combo I have not seen mentioned on the internet of wisdom is comboing Swordmaster (Tengu with Scout to "pounce" (Tiger Trance) and get sneak attack (Scout’s Charge) on all your attacks. That sounds like fun. Of course the problem you run into (along with the problems of sneak attack not always working versus certain enemies) is being unable to charge every turn.

Well, trancing requires a full-round action to set up and is only usable a couple of rounds per day. And leaves you fatigued. So you're wasting the first round of combat and will most likely end up fatigued in the middle of it.

You could do some high-level strategy with Coordinated Charge to not waste the first round but you need to succeed on a straight CMB check for Tiger Trance. Which at the very least means that you need to take the Agile Maneuvers feat to have a chance, but it quickly becomes highly improbable as CMD bloats.

Other than moving before the charge like what Rhino Charge allows, I'm quite sure there are ways for mounted characters to turn twice during a charge. Which would make it possible to charge 180.

[Minigiant]

Are there any other alternative options for gaining pounce that doesn't take until super high levels? e.g Raging initiate feat line.

[MrCharisma]

I mean, you can get Pounce with a Scroll/Wand of Beast Shape 2.

Are there any 3rd level spells that give it to you? That'd potentially let you use a potion for it (no dips or UMD required).

[UnArcaneElection]

Eldritch Scoundrel would eventually be able to cast Beast Shape 2, but unfortunately is not compatible with Scout, and loses half of their Sneak Attack. Vivisectionist Alchemist would eventually be able to cast Beast Shape 2, and has full progression Sneak Attack, but doesn't have a Scout archetype. BUT . . . what if you had an Alchemist in the party (not necessarily a Vivisectionist) who had the Infusion Discovery? I haven't heard of this FAQ ever having been superceded.

[Minigiant]

I just want to get sneak attack with every attack (excluding immune creatures)

[zza ni]

remember that once scout get to 8th level he only get his sneak attack on the 1st attack even if he pounces
"If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability." (since you can't charge without moving 10 ft..)

i find that for auto sneak it's easier if you're 'not being seen' (like greater invisibility) only problem is a lot of creatures can see him with true seeing\see invisible at higher levels.

BUT i never found a creature (without blindsight) in any adventure path that had the ability to see through fog - which is why my favorite way to sneak was reach\ranged + saltspray ring + goz mask = at 10 feet away they can't see you but you can see them.

for extra used an arcane trickster who throws a kunai with a tag that had invisible arcane mark and explosive runes set (explosive tags anyone?). then using swift action and canny trigger talent to add 6d6 force and more sneak with no save

have fun.

[Derklord]

Copy paste time:

Minigiant wrote:

I just want to get sneak attack with every attack (excluding immune creatures)

Won't happen. Seriously, get the idea out of your head. There are no means of getting Sneack Attack "every time", each method has a way of fooling it, or is otherwise limited.

• Flanking requires space and a flanking buddy.
• Acting before the opponent requires having superior initiative and only works once per combat.
• Stealth requires a way to hide and only works for one attack.
• Light level tricks requires specific circumstances.
• Feinting requires a check with potentially a hefty penalty, only works for one attack unless you have a lot of investment, and has a high action cost.
• Circling Mongoose requires high investment and sufficient space, doesn't work for the first attack, and stops working when you miss.
• Shatter Defenses also requires a high investment, needs to be imposed in some way first, and doesn't work agaisnt enemies immune to mind-affecting effects.
• Press to the Wall only works in select situations. It's nice when you can fly and attck ground-based enemies, but completely worthless against enemies that're flying, too.
• Dirty Trick takes plenty of investment, and you to affect the enemy with a combat maneuver check (and it's also stopped by blindsight).
• Greater Invisibility takes either a lot of levels in a spellcasting class, an expensive wand, or allied caster, requires actions to activate, and doesn't work against enemies with e.g. blindsight.
• Vanishing Trick requires Ninja, and only works for one attack per round (and not against enemies with e.g. Blindsight).
• Scout Rogue's abilities are archetype specific and only work for one attack per round.

Standout options:
- Vivisectionist Alchemist using extracts of Greater Invisibility. Takes 10th level to work, but when you're starting at 9th, that should be doable. With extracts providing non-combat capabilities, the ability to fly via extract, and possibly pounce via Beastmorph, all you need to be a well-rounded character is something to shore up the will save. Maybe combine with another method once enemies with extraordinary senses become more common.
- Sylvan Trickster Rogue with the Flight hex, and Press to the Wall. Can also get pounce and natural attacks at 10th level via Animal Skin, and Greater Gift of Consumption to shrug of fortitude saves. Requires investment into the will save.
- Ninja with the Invisible Blade ninja trick. Needs a lot of work to fix the class's weaknesses, though.
- If your GM rules that you can Sneak Attack on all attacks in a pounce when using Scout's Charge, Weretouched Shifter 4/Scout Rogue 4+ for pounce with 5 primary natural attacks (potentially even more via feats) hat, with Accomplished Sneak Attacker, is behind just one SA dice. Warning: This will break the game when fighting enemies that you can charge. Seriously, the damage is ridiculous.

zza ni wrote:

remember that once scout get to 8th level he only get his sneak attack on the 1st attack even if he pounces

The sentences only applies to "this ability", i.e. Skirmisher. That said, the way Scout's Charge is worded, i.e. "her attack" (singular), doesn't lean to applying to multiple attacks. It isn't 100% definitive, but a GM is still highly likely to shut it down.

MrCharisma wrote:

I mean, you can get Pounce with a Scroll/Wand of Beast Shape 2.

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Vivisectionist Alchemist would eventually be able to cast Beast Shape 2

Is there a reason people always suggest Beast Shape II for pounce, which at best gives you five attacks (two from rend) for pounce, absolutely forces you to use natural attacks, shuts down your armor, and makes it unable to use activated magic items (like Boots of Speed) or otherwise access equipment, when Monstrous Phsyique II combines pounce with six attacks and a fly speed while keeping humanoid form?

[Claxon]

I came here to warn that while not explicitly written as such, expect many GMs to disallow using Scout's Charge on multiple attacks with Pounce. It simply wasn't thought of as being a possibility when the archetype came out, so it was written loosely.

I agree with the Sentiment that you shouldn't expect to get Sneak Attack damage on every attack you make.

In fact, I will go so far to say that when I GM'd I came up with challenges for every character that made their prefer tactic not work at least occasionally.

Honestly, my best advice when it comes to Sneak Attack is, play something you want to play (that has sneak attack), as though it didn't have sneak attack.

And then, spend some resources to make achieving sneak attack easier.

Usually this works best on classes that get to steal sneak attack, rather than having it as their original thing.

[Mark Hoover 330]

I agree with Claxon and Derklord; SA on every attack isn't really an option so don't design your entire character around it. A player in my megadungeon campaign is running an Unchained Rogue (Scout) and unfortunately she's not only based the entire character around her archetype but she constantly forgets there are other means of gaining SA.

She charged a dragon b/c she wanted to SA. It cost her her character's life. Being a rogue, even a Scout, is about strategy and diversification.

1. Play a Scout: you're getting SA on Charges, later anytime you move 10'

2. Get a pet: Animal Companion, Familiar, Sacred Mount, or at low levels just take ranks in Handle Animal and buy/train war dogs. Now you've got potential Flankers. If you go Animal Companion or something that qualifies as one, get Pack Flanking as quick as possible

3. Exploit your allies: got multiple melee types in the party? Use THEM as flankers with readied actions, delayed actions, and make sure your Acrobatics is up to par. You might also consider feats, but ONLY if that's the intent of your build; Team Up, Gang Up or the aforementioned Pack Flanking to make sure you've got Flankers

4. Summoning: yet another way to get flankers

5. Turn Invisible: dip into a class, pick up Vanish through a Rogue Talent or just have expensive potions laying around

6. Blind your enemies: Dirty Trick, alchemical items and so on; Blinded denies folks their Dex bonus

7. Grappling: Pin denies folks their Dex bonus. Extra points if you can con, I mean SUGGEST another player builds THEIR character around grappling so you don't have to

8. Feint: feat intensive and potentially tough to pull off; go this way only if you intend to use this method a lot

9. Go first: when you attack before others have acted, that's a sneak attack

10. Sniping: play a halfling with the Swift as Shadows alt. race trait. This reduces the Stealth penalty when you move by 5 and makes the penalty for Sniping -10 instead of -20. It's not the WHOLE ball of wax as a Scout instead of a Sniper rogue, but it's something

These plus other methods DL mentions above are all options to get in SA's. My advice to my player and to you as well: remember to use MANY of them. Mix n match as often as you can.

In the case of the player in my own game, she has 2 other melee types in the party. She prioritized Dex and early on gave herself Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. However she tanked her Cha so no Feinting, she didn't take a Trait or a Feat to make her Initiative any better, and she always forgets to get into a Flank when she can.

She took Minor Magic and Major Magic as Rogue Talents but gave herself Message and Magic Missile. She's got a wizard, IN THE PARTY, who can work with an NPC they know as a Boon and make potions for cheap; she's never purchased a potion of Invisibility or any items along those lines for 7 levels.

Her ONLY strategy is to use the bow if she can go first AND she's 30' away, otherwise she Charges. Period. This has gotten her killed once and in several fights has let her do tons of damage on round 1 and not much else the rest of the fight.

Also, here's one more vote for either an Animal Companion, a Sacred Mount, a Familiar you can ride or some kind of a trained animal mount: when your mount charges, you gain the benefits of charging as well and, with the way Lance is worded, you may be considered to be Charging.

If your GM agrees with this logic, then any time your mount charges you are gaining SA.

Consider this: a 3 level dip into Hunter as a Small sized character (hear me out). Hunter 2 gives you both Outflank as a bonus feat and at 3 you get a bonus TW feat - you can take Pack Flanking here. Now you've got a mount, you're always considered Flanking while riding it, when it charges you're charging (SA) and with it working with you your attacks get +4 to hit. There's also spells and such, but mainly the bonus feats.

[Wonderstell]

Minigiant wrote:

I just want to get sneak attack with every attack (excluding immune creatures)

The most reliable SA method I can think of is a lv 8 Planar Sneak with Racial Heritage (Ogre), Savage Critical, and Vital Strike. It's just one attack per round but it will deal sneak attack damage. And thanks to Planar Sneak you even pierce the immunity of Elementals and Outsiders.

Not a very exciting build though. I think it would be better suited as a Serial Killer Vigilante with the Vital Punishment talent. Then you won't feel like you're missing out on all the Dex stuff as well.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Wait, don't you also need 19 Str for Savage Critical? So you want to be a rogue but also max out Str?

[Wonderstell]

Ain't no rule saying I can't!

It's a shame to not take advantage of Finesse Training but the goal was most reliable. Not most effective. Serial Killer Vigilante or Slayer would work better as Str based but loses out on ignoring SA immunity.

[UnArcaneElection]

^Depends upon how often you encounter Elementals and other Critical-immune Outsiders (many Outsiders are not Critical-immune anyway).

[zza ni]

Wonderstell wrote:

Minigiant wrote:

I just want to get sneak attack with every attack (excluding immune creatures)

The most reliable SA method I can think of is a lv 8 Planar Sneak with Racial Heritage (Ogre), Savage Critical, and Vital Strike. It's just one attack per round but it will deal sneak attack damage. And thanks to Planar Sneak you even pierce the immunity of Elementals and Outsiders.

Not a very exciting build though. I think it would be better suited as a Serial Killer Vigilante with the Vital Punishment talent. Then you won't feel like you're missing out on all the Dex stuff as well.

i posted a build (i think you actually commented on it) of half elf with racail heritage (ogre) who uses this with butchering axe for 6d6 (Axe+vital strike) + sneak attack damage. and as move he uses fast getaway + lightning stance (he's part slayer) to get 50% miss chance. along with the other ogre feats that give extra head he got 50% of ignoring any will save.

[Wonderstell]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Depends upon how often you encounter Elementals and other Critical-immune Outsiders (many Outsiders are not Critical-immune anyway).

Certainly. If the theme of the campaign is undead then it will probably not show up that often. But the good part about the ability is that it functions whenever an outsider is immune to sneak attacks. Not just because of their subtype.

So a Sylph (Native Outsider) that uses Windy Escape would get countered by the Planar Sneak.
Any Bloodline whose capstone grants immunity is thwarted if they're an outsider, like a Tiefling.
And all of the outsiders that have a Gaseous Form ability/SLA (there are quite a few) can't escape your fury.

Funnily enough it does nothing against Fortification.

===

@zza ni

Hah, that must have been where I got the idea from. An item which I now would have recommended is the Headband of Ninjutsu. +2 Insight to attack and can deal SA against foes with Total Concealment.

[Minigiant]

Is there a way of getting Dimensional Savant feat line to work with a Rogue?

[Derklord]

Yes, with Flickering Step. That's five feats though, and without retraining unaviable before 15th level. And only usuable four times per day.

[Minigiant]

Derklord wrote:

Yes, with Flickering Step. That's five feats though, and without retraining unaviable before 15th level. And only usuable four times per day.

Yeah that's what I thought. Too late for me. I will keep thinking. Shadow Walker looks promising

[Minigiant]

Derklord wrote:

Standout options:
- Sylvan Trickster Rogue with the Flight hex, and Press to the Wall. Can also get pounce and natural attacks at 10th level via Animal Skin, and Greater Gift of Consumption to shrug of fortitude saves. Requires investment into the will save.

What animal (with pounce) allows you to still use your weapons (because of the appearance condition).

[Neriathale]

Flanking. Every party I play in that has a character with SA gets used to the dance of 5’ steps and delays that sets up the flank. Our Hell’s Rebels group (Stalker Vigilante, Sacred Slayer Inquisitor and Investigator) end up doing a sort of Morris most of the time to maximise damage potential.

[Wonderstell]

Minigiant wrote:

What animal (with pounce) allows you to still use your weapons (because of the appearance condition).

I don't think there's any animal that has both pounce and opposable thumbs. If you want to avoid relying on natural attacks then Beast Shape probably isn't the best choice.

Rogue is famously immobile. Most players go straight for TWF so they start chasing full-attacks pretty much at level 1. If you choose any other playstyle then you shouldn't have to concern yourself about pounce before your 8th level.

If you're adamant about not multiclassing then Shadow Scion can get a swift-action "teleport" three times per day at lv 12 with Quicken Spell-Like Ability. And Stagger-Proof Boots are essentially the new Quick Runner's Shirt. Buy like 5 of them to switch out during the day.

[Scavion]

Nice boots. *adds it to my collection*

[Derklord]

Minigiant wrote:

What animal (with pounce) allows you to still use your weapons (because of the appearance condition).

None, unless the GM is lenient with the Deinonychus, which has digits. So you lose armor, access to your equipment (including stuff like Boots of Speed), and need to select claws with the 11th level Finesse Training upgrade to get dex-to-damage to at least some of the attacks. But it's still the earliest method of getting pounce on a Rogue (the next is the catfolk only Claw Pounce at 14). Also, with Mage Armor (UMD's wand or friendly caster) and the +2 AC from Beast Shape you don't actually lose AC, and you can simply dispel the effect after combat when you want to access your equipment (or want to talk...), as there's no daily limit.

Sylvan Trickster is easily the second best Rogue archetype in the game regardlessly (both Flight or GGoC alone would each ensure that!), and the best one that doesn't trade away half their skill ranks and SA dice (which are probably the two things that draw people to the class in the first place, if it's not (just) the name).

Neriathale wrote:

Flanking. Every party I play in that has a character with SA gets used to the dance of 5’ steps and delays that sets up the flank. Our Hell’s Rebels group (Stalker Vigilante, Sacred Slayer Inquisitor and Investigator) end up doing a sort of Morris most of the time to maximise damage potential.

The issue with that is that it stops maximising damage potential when the other melees have pounce or similar move-and-full-attack option with limited range. It also requires sufficient space, and is only profitable if the melees won't kill their target in the next full attack anyway.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Derklord, how many classes/races actually get a Move plus Full Attack option? There's Catfolk, Barbarians, I think a Slayer talent... what else? My point is, how often can we expect martials the Scout rogue/u-rogue to Flank with to have auto-pounce turned on, all the time?

As for having the space for flanking... this is why I suggested: step 1, get an Animal Companion of some kind, Step 2, both of you take the Teamwork feat of Pack Flanking. If there's room for your AC to engage in melee, plus one additional square, you've got Flanking. If the AC is large enough to bear you as a rider and engage in melee, you can share some if IT'S squares and have Flanking.

There are ways around EVERY condition/situation that provides Sneak Attack, I get that, but if you yourself can manufacture Flanking in some way it is the most reliable of all the ways, IMO.

[Wonderstell]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Derklord, how many classes/races actually get a Move plus Full Attack option? There's Catfolk, Barbarians, I think a Slayer talent... what else? My point is, how often can we expect martials the Scout rogue/u-rogue to Flank with to have auto-pounce turned on, all the time?

Not directed at me, but if your goal is to deal damage and you lose 80% of your damage without your move action... then you need to secure an ability to move and full attack. A lv 8 Rogue with ITWF and no way to move is honestly poorly built.

It doesn't have to be full-attacking though. Any ability that allows you to still deal respectable damage with just a standard action works fine. Like having Hurtful, a way to generate AoOs, or someone built for Vital Strike.

As for additional flankers that could get it without much issue:
Anyone with Pummeling Charge.
High-level mounted builds (or those that dipped one level into Sohei).
UnMonks with Flying Kick.
Vigilante at lv 12.
Anyone with Wildshape.
Animal Companions.
Eidolons.

[Minigiant]

Derklord wrote:

Sylvan Trickster is easily the second best Rogue archetype in the game regardlessly (both Flight or GGoC alone would each ensure that!), and the best one that doesn't trade away half their skill ranks and SA dice (which are probably the two things that draw people to the class in the first place, if it's not (just) the name).

This is probably a better question for a Witch focused guide but, is Greater Gift of Consumption really that go

[Derklord]

Minigiant wrote:

This is probably a better question for a Witch focused guide but, is Greater Gift of Consumption really that go

I presume this was supposed to say "that good"? It lets you outright ignore the effects of failed fortitude saves, as long as you have an enemy (or maybe even another creature, like a rat or something) within 30 ft. On a class with a weak Fort save, especially a melee, this is a godsent. That you can potentially even take out enemies with it (they have to save against it at the original DC, and if you made your save even take a -4 penalty) is just the cherry on top of it.

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Derklord, how many classes/races actually get a Move plus Full Attack option? There's Catfolk, Barbarians, I think a Slayer talent... what else?

I'll put it in spoiler because the list is really long:

1 Synthesist Summoner
3 Swordmaster Rogue Tiger Trance trance [requires CM check]
4 Shifter Poly [Animal] Deinonychus/Tiger aspect WS
4 Weretouched Shifter Poly Deinonychus/Tiger aspect WS
5 unMonk Flying Kick style strike
6 Druid Poly [Animal] WS
6 Feral Hunter Poly [Animal] WS
7 Nimble Guardian Monk Poly [Animal]
7 Totemic Skald Poly [Animal] WS
7 Hunter Poly [Animal] Share Shape spell (selected companion)
8 Agathiel Vigilante Poly [Animal] (animal selected)
8 Beastkin Berserker Barbarian Poly [Animal] (animal selected)
8 Flesheater Barbarian
8 Synergist Witch Poly [Animal]
9 Oracle (Lunar mystery) Poly [Animal] Form of the Beast revelation
9 Metamorph Alchemist Poly
9 Feral Champion Warpriest Poly [Animal] WS
10 Barbarian Greater Beast Totem RP
10 Beastmorph Alchemist
10 Viking Fighter Greater Beast Totem RP
10 Wild Stalker Ranger Greater Beast Totem RP
10 Witch Poly [Animal] Animal Skin major hex
10 Sylvan Trickster Rogue Poly [Animal] Animal Skin major hex
10 Ranger Poly [Animal] Share Shape spell (selected companion)
11 Medium
11 Mooncursed Barbarian Poly [Animal]
11 Prowler at World's End Bloodrager Poly [Animal]
11 Oracle (Dark Tapestry) Poly [Animal] Many Forms revelation
11 Azatariel Swashbuckler
11 Mobile Fighter [forgoes 1 attack]
11 Dawnflower Dervish Fighter [forgoes 1 attack]
12 Skald Greater Beast Totem RP
12 Primalist Bloodrager Greater Beast Totem RP
12 Vigilante (Avenger) Mad Rush talent
12 Shaman Poly [Animal] Shapeshift hex
12 Psychodermist Occultist
12 Dervish Dancer Bard
13 Blood God Disciple Summoner Greater Beast Totem RP (11 with retraining)

BAB 8/12 Pummeling Charge Unarmed Strikes only
BAB 10 Claw Pounce Claws only
BAB 13 Totemic Master Natural Attacks only

Not listed: Anything requiring 14th or higher level, animal companion, Eidolon, mounted build with Sohei dip for Mounted Skirmisher, mounted build with Spirited Charge and lance (single attack, but wants to charge).

[zza ni]

also

the kitsune's pounce feat

level 7 whirling dervish swashbuckler can spend one panache to move and full attack but each attack must target a different enemy in reach but all are made with full bab bonus even attacks that should have been with -5/-10 for high bab etc (blue scarf make the reach easier to get)

[Minigiant]

Derklord wrote:

It lets you outright ignore the effects of failed fortitude saves, as long as you have an enemy (or maybe even another creature, like a rat or something) within 30 ft. On a class with a weak Fort save, especially a melee, this is a godsent. That you can potentially even take out enemies with it (they have to save against it at the original DC, and if you made your save even take a -4 penalty) is just the cherry on top of it.

That is good, and you need both Gift of Consumption and Greater Gift for this to work, right?

_________________________________________________________________

Second & Third question;

Can Hexes be augmented with metamagic?

*I want to make Animal Skin a Fleeting Spell to be able to quickly change from a Lynx to my humanoid form the round after a pounce

If that is a no, is there any other way to dismiss Animal Skin faster than a Standard action

[UnArcaneElection]

No, metamagic only works on spells and to a limited extent on spell-like abilities (which have a limited set of separate feats for this purpose).

[Minigiant]

Minigiant wrote:

If that is a no, is there any other way to dismiss Animal Skin faster than a Standard action

I have a solution; Major Magic & a level 1 Polymorph spell (False Face or Youthfu/Wizened Appearance), and Quicken Spell-like Ability Feat.

Polymorph spells can overwrite one another

[Derklord]

Minigiant wrote:

That is good, and you need both Gift of Consumption and Greater Gift for this to work, right?

Correct. Because the hexes are confusing, here's a breakdown:

GoG is usuable as an immediate action when you have to make a fortitude save, and the target has to make the same save.
Greater GoC is a passive hex, you don't actually use it.
When you have GGoC, you still have to decide to use GoC, as normal. However, you make your save first. If you succeeed, the target of GoC has to make the save with a -4 penalty. If you fail, you don't take the effect, and the target of GoC has to save (with the same DC).

It's not foolproof, as it takes an immediate action (making it once per round), and requires a target within 30ft. that you haven't used GoC against in the last 24 hours. Still easily worth two hexes, especially on a Rogue.

[Minigiant]

OUTLINE

Race: Half-Orc (Sacred Tattoos)
Class: Rogue
Archetype: Sylvan Trickster

Stats – 25 Points
Str: 13
Dex: 16+2=18
Cons: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 10

TRAITS

____________ (Campaign)
Fate's Favored (Faith)

FEATS

1 – Rogue – Level – Iron Will
3 – Rogue – Level – Step Up
5 – Rogue – Level – Press to the Wall
7 – Rogue – Level – Power Attack
9 - Rogue - Level - Rhino Charge

ROGUE TALENTS/HEXES

2 – Rogue – Level – Nails (Hex)
4 – Rogue – Level – Flight (Hex)
6 – Rogue – Level – Gift of Consumption (Hex)
6 - Rogue - Favored Class Bonus - Greater Gift of Consumption (Hex)
8 – Rogue – Level – Combat Trick: Improved Bull Rush (Talent)
10 - Rogue - Level - Animal Skin (Lynx) (Hex)

What do you think? How can I improve this build

The idea is a Natural Attack build that can give themselves Flanking. Then at level 11, with a Lynx in Beast Shape, and always Pouncing. That should be 5 Primary Attacks all with Sneak Attack and all adding Dex to Damage. Theoretically I could take Bludgeoner to then go into the Sap Master line for even more damage

[zza ni]

well. a half orc sylvan trickster has a very special way to make sure enemies get sneak attacked (i use it with a ranged build for full attack from afar, but can also be used with melee if you add the swamp hag hex so you can walk\charge in the swamp you make).

you need a feat and a hex :
get the hex 'Swamp's Grasp' to set the place to be difficult terrain. and have the feat precipice strike (note, need bab +6 so at least 8 levels of rogue).

just be careful where you make the swamp. your party might not like to be stuck in it as well.

[UnArcaneElection]

^I am totally stealing this.

Edit: Not only that, but Swamp's Grasp doesn't even seem to care what level of Witch you are, which means that VMC Witch might(*) no longer be the second worst VMC(**) for a Rogue who needs to have some archetype incompatible with Sylvan Trickster.

(*)Depends upon whether you can find another useful Hex and eventually Major Hex that doesn't care what Witch level you are.

(**)VMC Gunslinger is still the worst, hands-down.

[zza ni]

well the vmc witch won't be considered more then level 1 witch for the 1st hex until level 15. that is only One 10-foot square and you need a bit more just to make sure the enemy and yourself are in it for long enough (they might try to get out after all). if your witch level is higher for hexs you can easily map the entire floor with it, or the part that count..

for vmc, id take :

- the swine hex, it mostly care for your int (until the level 8 2nd debuff, but it's not the main use anyway). and it's a nice, no-save debuff for will saves. also it's hilarious to use ;) get your street rap up fast with it. it also seem to work on any target not immune to transformation effects. (maybe even undead or constructs?)

- the Cauldron hex ,if your a rogue, then get major magic talent and the feat that let you swap a spell each day with a magic book would let you craft potions, just place ranks in craft (alchemy) since it's class skill and the hex give +4 to it anyway. and you got your own weird alchemy lab going. (remmber with sla you can craft items that require that specific sla so a sla of cure light wounds can be used to craft cure light wounds potions etc).

- if you lack anything else to use feats for and really want to vmc, you can also get the "Iceplant" hex. +2 nat armor and constant effects of endure elements. no matter what level of witch you count as.

as for major hexs:
- Animal Skin, at will beast shape II as long as you got the fur to wear. (witch level effect duration, but you can just restart it).

- if you took the cauldron and your ok with evil acts - cook people hex

- if you got a lair then Hidden Home might be nice..or a waste..

......
......
......

...wait...so you want to steal my idea for your rogue?

ahm ahm...

"Stop!! Thief!!"

(been ages since i got to yell that :)

[strayshift]

From our Kingmaker campaign, I played a Court Bard which benefitted our rogue in 2 principle ways:

1. Glorious Epic (augmented by wide audience)"(Su): A court bard of 8th level or higher can weave captivating tales that engross those who hear them. Enemies within 30 feet become flat-footed unless they succeed at a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard’s level + the bard’s Cha modifier). A save renders them immune to this ability for 24 hours. Glorious epic is a language-dependent, mind-affecting ability that uses audible components."
and
2. The Bard's Escape spell - https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bard-s-escape/ pretty much was a set up the party as you want it spell. Possibly broken.

If you are playing at high-levels and allow eladerhsip take these.

[UnArcaneElection]

zza ni wrote:

well the vmc witch won't be considered more then level 1 witch for the 1st hex until level 15. that is only One 10-foot square and you need a bit more just to make sure the enemy and yourself are in it for long enough (they might try to get out after all). if your witch level is higher for hexs you can easily map the entire floor with it, or the part that count..

Oops, I somehow missed the area per level. But at least it doesn't have a DC scaling to worry about (although enemies that can fly or ignore swampy Difficult Terrain will be immune, and especially the ones that can fly will get more common).

zza ni wrote:

for vmc, id take :

- the swine hex, it mostly care for your int (until the level 8 2nd debuff, but it's not the main use anyway). and it's a nice, no-save debuff for will saves. also it's hilarious to use ;) get your street rap up fast with it. it also seem to work on any target not immune to transformation effects. (maybe even undead or constructs?)

Actually it does have a Will Save:

Swine wrote:

Benefit(s): The witch can partially transform an enemy into a pig. The effects of the transformation are mostly cosmetic and do not change the creature’s size category or overall shape, but the affected creature takes a –2 penalty on Will saving throws for a number of rounds equal to the witch’s Intelligence modifier (Will negates). At 8th level, the affected creature’s hands (or paws) turn into hooves, preventing it from using claw attacks or taking any action that would require the creature to use its fingers.

(I checked to make sure it says the same thing on Archives of Nethys, but unfortunately they don't give a convenient way to link to individual Hexes, so I linked to the www.d20fsrd.com page for this.)

So having this stuck at 1st level is going to hurt, because your Save DC won't go up until you hit 15th level (and then it will only go up to 8th level).

zza ni wrote:

- the Cauldron hex ,if your a rogue, then get major magic talent and the feat that let you swap a spell each day with a magic book would let you craft potions, just place ranks in craft (alchemy) since it's class skill and the hex give +4 to it anyway. and you got your own weird alchemy lab going. (remmber with sla you can craft items that require that specific sla so a sla of cure light wounds can be used to craft cure light wounds potions etc).

Sadly, Rules As Written, the Witch Cantrip you get at 11th level doesn't count as the Minor Magic Rogue Talent (even though it's very similar) for feat and talent prerequisites (and even if it did, Rules As Written it doesn't work with Bookish Rogue). Otherwise this would be at least serviceable if not great (fitting with an Underground Chemist Rogue (by strict Rules As Written incompatible with Sylvan Trickster since they both alter Rogue Talents), and having the Cantrip come from the Witch list instead of the Sorcerer/Wizard list would actually be useful in its own right if you could use it with Bookish Rogue). Of course, this still suffers from the problem that you would be getting it WAY late (since you would want Swamp's Grasp at 7th level to be just 1 level ahead of Precipice Strike.

zza ni wrote:

- if you lack anything else to use feats for and really want to vmc, you can also get the "Iceplant" hex. +2 nat armor and constant effects of endure elements. no matter what level of witch you count as.

Actually not too shabby in very cold regions, since Rogues are rather squishy, and this is twice as good as Dodge (although that's a pretty poor feat, and is really just a feat tax for stuff you actually want, and since you'd want Swamp's Grasp first, you'd have to wait all the way to 15th level for this).

zza ni wrote:

as for major hexs:

- Animal Skin, at will beast shape 2 as long as you got the fur to wear. (witch level effect duration, but you can just restart it).

And by a remarkable coincidence, somebody posting above was wanting to get Beast Shape II, even if it isn't optimal from an attack type perspective (Monstrous Physique II being better, but no Monstrous Skin Hex being available). Of course, 19th level is VERY LATE to be getting this.

zza ni wrote:

- if you took the cauldron and your ok with evil acts - cook people hex

I wouldn't recommend this for a PC, but this could work for some fearsome bandit leader. Except for the problem that they have to wait all the way to 19th level to get this, and even an NPC fearsome bandit leader of that level has got better ways to be fearsome.

zza ni wrote:

- if you got a lair then Hidden Home might be nice..or a waste..

This would keep out the riff-raff, but since Hidden Home acts as Mirage Arcana, which acts as Hallucinatory Terrain, which has a Will Save, and since True Seeing is at least moderately common up at 19th level, it isn't going to work very well.

Looks like for higher levels, VMC Witch still really falls apart for Rogue-Who-Wants-To-Be-Sylvan-But-Can't. But at lower levels, like in what used to be PFS, or in an AP like Council of Thieves?

(Must be Half-Orc to qualify for Precipice Strike)

01: Nimble Moves feat (you will need this to make best use of Precipice Strike later, but it's good in its own right as soon as you get it)
02: Rogue Talent (Fast Getaway) -- this will proc off your Sneak Attack very often after you get Precipice Strike, but it is useful in its own right even before you get that.
03: VMC Witch I = Familiar, full-level progression -- this is better than the Rogue Talent (even Unchained) Familiar, which is delayed 4 levels in progression and requires the Minor Magic and Major Rogue Magic Talents.
04: {Insert your Rogue Talent}
05: Acrobatic Steps feat (makes Nimble Moves better, especially important if somebody is trying to use the Difficult Terrain trick on you)
06: {Insert your Rogue Talent}
07: VMC Witch II = Witch Hex (Swamp's Grasp) -- next level you will use this with Precipice Strike to get guaranteed Sneak Attack on most targets unless your campaign is really Oozy, Elemental, or flying.
08: Rogue Talent (Combat Trick (Precipice Strike)).
09: {Insert your Feat}
10: {Insert your Rogue Advanced Talent}
11: VMC Witch III = Witch Cantrip (Stabilize -- keep your Cleric from bleeding out) -- here the VMC Witch chain starts to fall apart unless your GM is nice and lets this count as working with Bookish Rogue.
12: Rogue Talent (Major Magic) (if your GM was nice).
13: Bookish Rogue feat (if your GM was nice).
14: {Insert your Rogue Advanced Talent}
15: VMC Witch IV = Witch Hex (Cauldron or Iceplant) -- here the VMC Witch chain starts to fall apart even if your GM is nice.

zza ni wrote:

......

......
......

...wait...so you want to steal my idea for your rogue?

ahm ahm...

"Stop!! Thief!!"

(been ages since i got to yell that :)

^Win.

[Lune]

Step 1: Play any small race. Take Combat Expertise as your first level feat. If you don't want to sink a 13 into Int then take Dirty Fighting instead.

Step 2: Take 3 levels of Hunter. For your Precise Companion class feature choose Outflank. For your 3rd level feat take Pack Flanking. Hunter tactics shares your teamwork feats with your Animal Companion. So now both you and your mounted (always considered adjacent) Animal Companion are always flanking and always get +4 to hit (outside of things that can't be flanked liked Minotaurs and Barbarians, of course).

Step 3: Start taking your Rogue levels. Enjoy the sneak attacks every round. If you start adjacent to an enemy then you can full attack sneak attack.

Bonus steps!: Take a mount with pounce. It uses it's movement and gets a full flanking attack at +4 to hit. Don't forget the higher ground bonus for attacking targets smaller than your mount. Charging bonuses (and penalties) apply to both you and your mount. Netting a +7 to hit before BAB, Ability score bonuses, Enhancement, etc will be a nice way to ensure you hit (especially because you are mixing two 3/4 BAB classes).

The Teamwork feats really write themself on this build. Precise Strike to keep up with precision damage. Paired Opportunist and Broken Wing Gambit to generate extra attacks for you and your mount.

Boon Companion helps keep up your Animal Companion levels while you are sinking some levels in to Rogue. Accomplished Sneak Attacker helps keep up your sneak attack damage while taking levels in Hunter.

Intercept Blow allows your character to take a feat so your Animal Companion can defend you similarly to how your character can try to protect your mount with Mounted Combat. I recommend both. Flanking bonuses apply to Intercept Blow as it is an attack roll.

For the mount I would recommend Toughness, Power Attack and Combat Reflexes. Don't get armor proficiencies, it is a trap. Just get mithril chain shirt barding and eat the -0 ACP to attacks. Get it a magic saddle. There are several that give the rider a competence bonus on ride checks. That works good with your Mounted Combat feat. Ask your GM if you can have a masterwork military saddle that works like a masterwork artisan tool and grants a +2 to all ride checks rather than just to stay in the saddle. Your goal is to get to being able to consistently make DC20 ride checks to "Control mount in battle". With 3 ranks, +3 trained bonus, +2 Dex, +2 circumstance that gets you +10 by 3rd level. Talk with your GM about what your animal is likely to do if you do not directly control it in battle. Most GMs are fine with it doing what comes natural to a creature of it's kind which should work for you under most circumstances.

You get a +4 circumstance bonus for using Handle Animal on your Animal Companion. This is great for training purposes. Do not forget to invest in the Skirmisher Ranger tricks for your companion! These are great. Also, the Blackthorn Rancher trait gives your Animal Companion 3 extra HP.

Make sure you can take your mount everywhere and that it can move in any environment. Narrow Frame feat helps for the mount. But also grabbing scrolls or even a wand of Carry Companion could be a good idea. Spells that grant other forms of movement you can cast on your Animal Companion via share spells. Monkey Fish is a great early entry option, Touch of the Sea is situationally better. Air Step can help avoid some hazards. Fly is a class skill for Animal Companions. Invest in it and make sure it takes the Air Walk trick. ...also take the Air Walk spell.

[UnArcaneElection]

^The problem with Boon Companion is that it is only good for 4 levels in non-Companion classes, after which your Animal Companion will fall behind. But if you're willing to dip 1 more level, 4th level Cavalier has Expert Trainer (sadly, the Strategist archetype trades out Expert Trainer, so you can't use it for this), which qualifies you for Horse Master, which makes your Animal Companion progression depend upon your character level, no matter what your class is thereafter. If you take it at 5th level, then you don't have any levels at which progression is lost even temporarily.

[Lune]

Well between Precise Strike (both the Animal Companion and character get this on all attacks) and Accomplished Sneak Attacker you don't need a lot of levels in Rogue to keep up with your sneak attack damage. So you could easily do this kind of build with only 3 levels or Rogue. Every level after that only drops 1 level from your Animal Companion which isn't a huge loss for a couple of levels.

Also, Cavalier doesn't grant their teamwork feats to their Animal Companion. Well, outside of Tactician that is, which is a rounds per day 1/day ability. So for maybe one fight you could get permaflank/all sneak attacks off. That seems to be moving away from the OP's goal a bit. But I suppose if one values Animal Companion progression over permaflank/always sneak attacking then that is another option.

[Name Violation]

Lune wrote:

Well between Precise Strike (both the Animal Companion and character get this on all attacks) and Accomplished Sneak Attacker you don't need a lot of levels in Rogue to keep up with your sneak attack damage. So you could easily do this kind of build with only 3 levels or Rogue. Every level after that only drops 1 level from your Animal Companion which isn't a huge loss for a couple of levels.

Also, Cavalier doesn't grant their teamwork feats to their Animal Companion. Well, outside of Tactician that is, which is a rounds per day 1/day ability. So for maybe one fight you could get permaflank/all sneak attacks off. That seems to be moving away from the OP's goal a bit. But I suppose if one values Animal Companion progression over permaflank/always sneak attacking then that is another option.

Accomplished Sneak Attacker can only be taken once. Doesn't help much.

[Mark Hoover 330]

If you go the Rogue/Hunter route, with TW feats shared between both AC and the PC, there is the TW feat Precise Strike so that both of you add +1d6 Precision damage when Flanking. It's not much, but it's there.

The reality, of course, is there's no ironclad way to permanently SA every round, let alone every attack. Weirdly I just chimed in on a "I don't like save-or-suck spells" thread and it got me thinking about this one as well.

If you rely on SA or save-or-suck spells to contribute the appropriate amount of damage or conflict resolution at your level, there WILL be situations where you fail to contribute, guaranteed. Now there are strategies to reduce the number of failures, certainly, but it is inevitable that at some point you face foes that

- are immune to SA
- you miss on your attack
- you can't charge or flank them
- they beat your Bluff check

And so on. Rather than spend all your energy trying to find that ONE PERFECT build that's going to solve every problem with SA, instead try to find ways to ensure that SA isn't the totality of your combat strategy.

This is why, honestly, I like builds that incorporate both SA and either an Animal Companion or a combat-built Familiar or Eidolon. You have both a built-in Flanker so long as your combat buddy survives melee, but also many of these helpers have extra special effects baked in.

It might be as little as them granting you Guidance every round they're not attacking to as major as your war bull having Trample or your warcat getting Pounce. With these perks you can build in a secondary method of succeeding in combat in case Sneak Attack isn't a valuable option.

[Ryze Kuja]

There is a way to reliably get SnA with *most* of your attacks, and that's by having multiple avenues for causing the Flat-footed and Denied Dex conditions. So, I'd recommend going with a Dirty Tricks Master with Shatter Defenses, and then remember your ABC's (Always Be CFlanking).

Flat Footed and Blind both cause Denied Dex conditions.

I would recommend NOT doing this with a rogue though, but do it with a Slayer, because Shatter Defenses and Dirty Tricks Master are both BAB based, and Rogues would get these online very late in the game. Also, I'd recommend doing this with a Human, or a race that is one-off from Human, because the Human FCB for Slayer is 1/6 Slayer Talent. Humans also get that juicy extra feat at level 1.

You should go high dex as possible, but have a minimum of 13 Str so you can Power Attack. You don't need to meet the Dexterity pre-req's for TWF because Rangers ignore this.

25pt buy:

20 Str (18 +2)
16 Dex
10 Con
8 Int
10 Wis
10 Cha

Level1: Feat: Power Attack
Human Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus

Level2: Ranger Combat Style: Two Weapon Fighting

Level3: Dirty Fighting (feat tax for Quick DT)

Level4: Rogue Talent: Underhanded Trick (Imp Dirty Trick + enemies cannot remove your Blind in the first round its active)

Level5: Dazzling Display

Level6: Ranger Combat Style: Improved Two Weapon Fighting, 6/6 Slayer Talent: Cornugon Smash <---- get a Cruel Enchant on one of your weapons by this level so you can inflict Shaken/Sicken combo for -4 Att/AbilCheck/Skills/Saves & -2 dmg

Level7: Shatter Defenses

Level8: Combat Trick: Quick Dirty Trick From here on out, if your target can be blinded, your first attack is going to be a Quick Dirty Trick to Blind, and then for the next 2 rounds, you're causing SnA with all iterative attacks and Shattering their Defenses so that you continue to cause SnA even if they eventually remove your Blind effect.

You should be at 4 attacks per round right now, or 5 attacks per round if you have Boots of Speed/Haste.

Level9: Greater Dirty Trick

This build is complete right now. You have everything you need to be successful at causing SnA with as many hits as possible, and the stuff you gain at levels 10-16 is icing on the cake.

Level10: Ranger Combat Style: Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level11: Dirty Tricks Master <---- with Boots of Speed, you should be at 7 attacks per round right now.

Now you have the option to Sicken ----> Nauseate your enemies. Nauseate = move actions only, and Greater Dirty Tricks = your conditions can only be removed with Standard Actions.

Level12: Advanced Talent: Hunter's Surprise, 6/6 Slayer Talent: Any Slayer Talent

Level13: Optional: Get two Bludgeoning Weapons. Feat: Sap Adept

Level14: Feat: Sap Master

Level15: Accomplished Sneak Attacker

Level16: Any Slayer/Rogue Talent - at this point, you're dealing 6d6 SnA, or 12d6+12 SnA for non-lethal, and with Boots of Speed or Haste you're making 8 attacks per round.

Get Boots of Speed 12,000gp for on-demand free action Haste as soon as possible so you can generate 1 extra attack per round.

[Lune]

Name Violation wrote:

Accomplished Sneak Attacker can only be taken once. Doesn't help much.

It helps exactly 1d6. I never claimed more or less. That is basically 2 levels worth of Rogue. As mentioned Precise Strike makes up for another 1d6. But when it was for every one of your attacks and your Animal Companion's attacks that adds up fast.

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

If you go the Rogue/Hunter route, with TW feats shared between both AC and the PC, there is the TW feat Precise Strike so that both of you add +1d6 Precision damage when Flanking. It's not much, but it's there.

That is literally the build that I just mentioned 3 posts above yours. :) But I agree, it is a good build.

My son has a TWF Grippli Hunter/Rogue with a Chameleon Animal Companion that he uses to great effect. The Chameleon is spec'd for stealth, climb and grappling. They sneak along walls and ceilings, the Chameleon grapples them up with the tongue and the Grippli slices them to shreds with TWF sneak attacks. The character has a ton of skills, comes equipped with healing and very handy hunter spells and is fairly versatile and survivable.

Look, getting sneak attack on every attack is powerful. You are going to have to make sacrifices and investments somewhere to accomplish this. But when you get it this is a powerful mechanic. Diminishing a concept by saying it doesn't help much or isn't good both misses the point (the OP wants a build focused on sneak attacking on every attack) and is short sighted. Getting an extra 1d6 on every attack is powerful. Getting an extra 1d6 on every attack for both you and your Animal Companion is amazing. Especially when your Animal Companion has a lot of attacks and can pounce. Its even better when you are getting a +4 flanking bonus on every attack and likely getting bonus attacks (for both you and your Animal Companion) from AoOs thanks to Combat Reflexes, Paired Opportunist, large sized threatened area and Broken Wing Gambit. All of those attacks with +8 (+4 flanking +4 Paired Opportunist) sneak attacks.

[Wonderstell]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

and then remember your ABC's (Always Be CFlanking).

Got a giggle out of me

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Level8: Combat Trick: Quick Dirty Trick From here on out, if your target can be blinded, your first attack is going to be a Quick Dirty Trick to Blind, and then for the next 2 rounds, you're causing SnA with all iterative attacks and Shattering their Defenses so that you continue to cause SnA even if they eventually remove your Blind effect.

It's an oft-forgotten rule, but you can only demoralize an opponent that "can clearly see and hear you". So if you blind the target with your Quick Dirty Trick you are unable to demoralize them with Cornugon Smash after that.

[Ryze Kuja]

That rule should be re-written as "can clearly perceive you". It shouldn't be impossible to intimidate someone who is blind, or deaf. They just need to be aware that you're there, and aware that they're trying to intimidate you.

DM: "The orc pulls out his axe and shouts menacingly at you 'Ima gut you like a FISH! RAWERARWR!' " /rolls intimidate

PC: "I closed my eyes first, so I can't be intimidated."

DM: *checks Intimidate rules*

DM:

DM: *flips table*

It would be understandable if the Orc was behind you and standing in a Zone of Silence spell and screaming "RAWWWRARRARAR" that just sounds like *crickets*. You're not able to perceive that he's attempting to intimidate you, so it doesn't intimidate you.

[Kurald Galain]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

PC: "I closed my eyes first, so I can't be intimidated."

Sure, but the notion that you can close your eyes at the exact second where it would be beneficial and open them at the precise moment when that would help you (i.e. when the orc attacks you) is probably not going to fly with most GMs.