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At this point I'm almost content to leave the forums behind and just stick to the discords of my favorite actual play podcasts, as those spaces have been actively welcoming.Off topic but any recommendations, particularly for a community point of view? With Critical Role vods being delayed to Monday and being live-streamed at really unfriendly times for me, I could use another TTRPG podcast / actual play to listen to.
I really enjoy all three of the Find The Path podcasts (Mummy's Mask, though I'm only done with book two there), Hell's Rebels in 2E, and Tyrant's Grasp; likewise Hideous Laughter's Bestow Curse (2E Curse of the Crimson Throne), and their main podcast doing Carrion Crown (I'm in the middle of book two for this one); and Southern Tomfoolery's Live and Let Fly (Fly Free or Die).
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A lot of the time, things get so bad because a few bad actors don't get moderated quickly or strongly enough, and it perpetrates the whole community. Everyone gets tense, on guard, sharper, less willing to extend the benefit of the doubt.
It doesn't have to be like that. I do believe things can get better than they are right now. But it is going to require a moderation team that's prepared to handle toxic and bigoted behavior very harshly.
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Part of the reason so many trans folks here are “””abrasive””” is because it’s been two straight months of under-moderated hate on these boards plus two straight months of management refusing to acknowledge the allegations of transphobic policies. There’s pretty easy fixes for both that Paizo could take, and it’s saddening to see them do neither.
Ban bigots. Acknowledge your harm done and give a plan to do better. It’s that easy.
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Moderation philosophies are hard to deal with in general. Like its easier to mod smaller communities than large ones, that is obvious, but modding policies tend to be very controversial topic. I have online friends who feel they gotten banned in unfair ways (some chats are very fast to ban if you argue with mods, including if you complain you think they banned someone else for unfair reasons), but I do think best moderator practices I've seen can be likened to sniper firing squad <_< Which is, acting with extreme surgical precision(whether or not they have three strike rule or not) and putting responsibility on poster to follow rules.
Like one forum I've seen has specific on topic conversation forum section for politics, religion and other topics that often cause arguments. Those topics are restricted to that section and you have to stay on topic on the forum thread. And in general, that forum is extremely fast to ban anyone who repeatedly starts arguments in the forum, that forum is very explicit on not tolerating angry debates or discriminatory behavior.
In practice uh, it leads to community that is very chill. Because everyone who has high temperament and would argue with mod policy gets banned because they are breaking the main rule <_< It doesn't really result in community that agrees on every topic, normal arguments and debates are allowed as long they don't step out of line into personal insults or flammatory. It more results in that people who disagree with each other strongly on specific subject just don't hang out in same forum threads.
(its kind of similar atmosphere to forums with paid memberships, since people don't tend to throw money to get banned)
My experience in general is that forums for sites that sell products tend to be more afraid to ban people because they are afraid of bad reputation or driving away customers. Meanwhile forums that don't sell anything don't really care about mod reputation, just that everyone acts according to forum rules. Well unless site is super mainstream. In which case company behind site might have reputation they want to keep despite potential sale loss.
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Reacting with emotion to people who are trying to hurt you is not “fighting hate with hate.” I’m sick of this mentality of telling victims the onus is on them to be better.
Please, please direct any of this energy to the people attacking the marginalized, if you truly feel a need to dictate what folks should say.
I would never dictate what folks should say, just like I don’t believe you are dictating what I should say. We’re just having a conversation. I try to speak up only where I believe I have something of value to add. If it doesn’t work for you, I’m not offended. We can be cool.
I do believe the onus is on all of us to “be better”. And I also believe that the best way to advocate for an open and welcoming community is to model it.
Edit: fixed formatting.
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Reacting with emotion to people who are trying to hurt you is not “fighting hate with hate.” I’m sick of this mentality of telling victims the onus is on them to be better.
Please, please direct any of this energy to the people attacking the marginalized, if you truly feel a need to dictate what folks should say.
I would never dictate what folks should say, just like I don’t believe you are dictating what I should say. We’re just having a conversation. I try to speak up only where I believe I have something of value to add. If it doesn’t work for you, I’m not offended. We can be cool.
I do believe the onus is on all of us to “be better”. And I also believe that the best way to advocate for an open and welcoming community is to model it.
Edit: fixed formatting.
I would then genuinely ask why you’re directing these calls to do better at the victims, and not the outspoken bigoted problem-makers.
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I would then genuinely ask why you’re directing these calls to do better at the victims, and not the outspoken bigoted problem-makers.
Genuinely, I don’t believe I am directing any calls at any victims. I am calling out behavior, not individuals.
I also believe that it is the moderator’s job to sanction true bigots, and for me to engage with them just gives them a voice. I feel it is better to leave them isolated.
Plus, with everything said already, I don’t have anything new or of value to add.
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I would then genuinely ask why you’re directing these calls to do better at the victims, and not the outspoken bigoted problem-makers.Genuinely, I don’t believe I am directing any calls at any victims. I am calling out behavior, not individuals.
I also believe that it is the moderator’s job to sanction true bigots, and for me to engage with them just gives them a voice. I feel it is better to leave them isolated.
Plus, with everything said already, I don’t have anything new or of value to add.
The behavior you were speaking to was the conduct of trans people facing harassment, telling them to react with less emotion - there’s specific individuals that applies to. It’s strange to address that crowd, but say that the bigots aren’t worth correcting.
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"Won't somebody think of the bullies?" is nonsense.
Trans people should be welcome here and the fact some people believe otherwise doesn't mean there's two sides that should be considered.
Nor should people feel the need to be polite when their identity is questioned, maligned or dismissed.
We should focus our energy on flagging posts which undermine the community and which make it less welcoming, not telling those being bullied to watch their politeness.
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The behavior you were speaking to was the conduct of trans people facing harassment, telling them to react with less emotion - there’s specific individuals that applies to. It’s strange to address that crowd, but say that the bigots aren’t worth correcting.
Hey, I don’t know who is trans and who isn’t, so that isn’t a factor at all. And I didn’t say not to have emotions either - emotions are good! I’m saying to Respond, not React. So if you want to Respond with emotion, go for it!
I hope you’re not suggesting that, by somehow advocating for civil discourse on these forums, that I somehow support bigots. I’ll say it again, I am 100% in favor of banning any individual who supports violence, hate, or exclusion of any community, including the LGBTQ+ community, and that includes people who refuse to show behave civilly, including the use of their proper pronouns.
Hopefully that addresses any concerns over my motives here.
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It's very much this scenario but less exaggerated:
"1) Person A: I think this [x] rights situation is exaggerated
2) Person B: Hey! I'm [x] and I can confirm that we are discriminated upon a lot!
3) Person A: Oh stop whining, everyone has equal rights and I'm not convinced [x] issues are real
4) Person B: WHAT! But they are real, and you are currently being really dismissive!
5) Person A: Oh but what about [A's identity] rights, aren't you being dismissive of discrimination we get from easily offended people?
6) Person B: Okay NOW you are being BIG JERK!
7) Person C: TONE IT DOWN B! Gosh, people are super rude nowadays, don't you know that you should treat everyone with respect
8) Person A: Yeah treat me with respect
9) Person B:......"
...Like reason why people who feel severely disrespect upon tend to be annoyed with that behavior is that it very much comes across to them as if you were tacitly siding against them :p
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Vardoc, rather than being general in your request for politeness and then only telling victims to play nice. maybe if you would call the bigots out, that might be nice.
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Vardoc, rather than being general in your request for politeness and then only telling victims to play nice. maybe if you would call the bigots out, that might be nice.
Yikes. I am not only telling victims to play nice. That a gross mischaracterization of what I have actually said and what I have been trying to communicate. If that is the conclusion you choose to draw from my comments, that is on you, not me.
My purpose for engaging on this topic is that if a bigot is a bigot, that reflects their character, not yours. Flag, report, Respond with emotion - do what you need to do. But if you allow the bad behavior of others to justify your own bad behavior, well, that reflects your character, not theirs.
Anyways, if this doesn’t connect for you, no hard feelings. My apologies if anything I said offended you. If it did, that was not my intent.
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At this point I'm almost content to leave the forums behind and just stick to the discords of my favorite actual play podcasts, as those spaces have been actively welcoming.
While I certainly understand and certainly recognize that you need to do what is right for you I hope you decide to stick around. You've been one of the most positive influences on these forums for at least the last couple of months and you'll be sorely missed if you do go.
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At this point I'm almost content to leave the forums behind and just stick to the discords of my favorite actual play podcasts, as those spaces have been actively welcoming.While I certainly understand and certainly recognize that you need to do what is right for you I hope you decide to stick around. You've been one of the most positive influences on these forums for at least the last couple of months and you'll be sorely missed if you do go.
I really needed to hear that today. I really do appreciate it. Today in particular I've felt very much like Sisyphus.
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Vardoc, rather than being general in your request for politeness and then only telling victims to play nice. maybe if you would call the bigots out, that might be nice.Yikes. I am not only telling victims to play nice. That a gross mischaracterization of what I have actually said and what I have been trying to communicate. If that is the conclusion you choose to draw from my comments, that is on you, not me.
My purpose for engaging on this topic is that if a bigot is a bigot, that reflects their character, not yours. Flag, report, Respond with emotion - do what you need to do. But if you allow the bad behavior of others to justify your own bad behavior, well, that reflects your character, not theirs.
Anyways, if this doesn’t connect for you, no hard feelings. My apologies if anything I said offended you. If it did, that was not my intent.
Generalizations marked by only engaging one group to be nice and polite, well those are on you and not me.
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At this point I'm almost content to leave the forums behind and just stick to the discords of my favorite actual play podcasts, as those spaces have been actively welcoming.While I certainly understand and certainly recognize that you need to do what is right for you I hope you decide to stick around. You've been one of the most positive influences on these forums for at least the last couple of months and you'll be sorely missed if you do go.
Seconding! Cori, you're genuinely one of the main reasons I've stuck around these past two months, and I always know when I see you post that you'll be acting to elevate the discourse. I hope you stick around, but I understand if it's just too much.
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Vardoc, if everyone around is interpreting your posts the same way… please, please consider that the fault is with what you’re saying, not everyone else. I know you’re not a bigot, and that you have good intentions, but there’s a reason so many people are seeing your comments as tone-policing the victims of harassment: that’s how it reads.
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Cori Marie, just wanted to join the group in saying I hope you'll stick around. *hugs*
And yeah, today was rough. I was catching up on this thread earlier today, and had to walk away. It's appalling how just a couple of people, persistently posting bile, can create such a toxic environment.
Paizo, I know you've got a lot on your plates, and I know that there generally aren't any moderators on the weekends. Please, take a look at some of the bad actors who repeatedly take advantage of that fact, and start issuing some stronger penalties. Stronger penalties now = less moderation workload later...
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Vardoc, if everyone around is interpreting your posts the same way… please, please consider that the fault is with what you’re saying, not everyone else. I know you’re not a bigot, and that you have good intentions, but there’s a reason so many people are seeing your comments as tone-policing the victims of harassment: that’s how it reads.
Thank you Keftiu for recognizing my intent.
You prompted me to review my posts on this thread, and somehow my original point about moderation got twisted around to folks implying that I support or “bodyguard” for bigots. I don’t understand how that happened. But I’ll reflect on it.
Anyways, I don’t have anything else to add here, so I’ll close wishing everyone here the best.
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I have belief that if someone says they are offended by something, its polite to listen even if you don't fully get it. Like I'm not sure I fully understand who really "owns" the "spooky cannibalism giant with icy heart" myth or whether or not it should be off limit, but its still important to listen to concern.
Its why I really do admire willingness to reflect, self examination and introspection
From what it sounds like, Paizo is understaffed (by their own actions) as well as people being under paid, I doubt that this is something that they would do. A person should be paid for this type of work. But who knows, we might get an answer "Soon"
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Or they can advance 2 employees to VP, one who has not even been there a year.
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Why not remove the forums altogether just like WotC did in the past? It clearly makes people even more upset with Paizo. Every time I come here I see only toxic behavior on all sides of whatever debate is going on. I know that in Twitter age of the internet no such thing as meaningful conversation exists and people prefer to lock themselves in ghettos of like-minded people instead of dealing with different opinions. This is exactly what attracts trolls that are just waiting to you know... stir the pot.
Or they can advance 2 employees to VP, one who has not even been there a year.
Clarification...I believe that they were both hired into VP roles.
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Why not remove the forums altogether just like WotC did in the past? It clearly makes people even more upset with Paizo. Every time I come here I see only toxic behavior on all sides of whatever debate is going on. I know that in Twitter age of the internet no such thing as meaningful conversation exists and people prefer to lock themselves in ghettos of like-minded people instead of dealing with different opinions. This is exactly what attracts trolls that are just waiting to you know... stir the pot.
If they remove the forums I would cancel all of my subscriptions immediately because it would prove to me that they really don't honor what they say they value.
If a company states that they honor inclusiveness and then become exclusive at the cost of employees and customers. Then it is lip service.
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Or they can advance 2 employees to VP, one who has not even been there a year.
They were both already VP's before the notice. They were elevated to the leadership team. Which to be brutally honest? as VP's they already should have had a seat at the table of a company this small.
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Why not remove the forums altogether just like WotC did in the past? It clearly makes people even more upset with Paizo. Every time I come here I see only toxic behavior on all sides of whatever debate is going on. I know that in Twitter age of the internet no such thing as meaningful conversation exists and people prefer to lock themselves in ghettos of like-minded people instead of dealing with different opinions. This is exactly what attracts trolls that are just waiting to you know... stir the pot.
"Pineapple on pizza is good" vs "pineapple on pizza is bad" : Fine conversation with low stakes where who is "right" doesn't actually matter.
"Trans women are women" vs the opposite : There is ONE (1) correct side. The "trans women are women" side.
The first example is just whatever. Agree or disagree to your heart's content. If you have any consistent response to "trans women are women" more negative than "huh ok" then you are a bigot. It isn't that hard. You don't need to pretend that it is difficult to see the difference in context.
EDIT: Maybe a more relevant example than pizza would be the disagreements about class mechanics. I don't have any problem with someone saying they hate a mechanic I like in any kind of moral sense. But that isn't what has been going on in this and related threads.
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From what it sounds like, Paizo is understaffed
They have been using that excuse almost since they founded the company. Either they are unable to staff to the level they need to, or they are unwilling to. Either way, after more than a decade, if they don't change their business practices to account for the staff they do have, it demonstrates their inability at conducting their business.
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If they remove the forums I would cancel all of my subscriptions immediately because it would prove to me that they really don't honor what they say they value.
If a company states that they honor inclusiveness and then become exclusive at the cost of employees and customers. Then it is lip service.
I agree, merely speculating. I can see the argument to step away from forums and move into solely social media and a Discord Community that has built-in robust moderation tools and is right now are thriving platform. A perfect example of such a Community is Find the Path, a fantastic place that is welcoming and inclusive.
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Why not remove the forums altogether just like WotC did in the past? It clearly makes people even more upset with Paizo. Every time I come here I see only toxic behavior on all sides of whatever debate is going on. I know that in Twitter age of the internet no such thing as meaningful conversation exists and people prefer to lock themselves in ghettos of like-minded people instead of dealing with different opinions. This is exactly what attracts trolls that are just waiting to you know... stir the pot.
Because first, Paizo prides themselves on their direct interaction with their customers. Second, not following WotC's lead is why Paizo still has a business. Third, if the only thing you see in the message boards is toxic it shows you chose to only frequent forums that would include contentious arguments. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands of threads that are not argumentative at all.
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Or they can advance 2 employees to VP, one who has not even been there a year.Clarification...I believe that they were both hired into VP roles.
Jim Butler was promoted.
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The forum also has moderation tools. The issue is they're not being used.
Discord is also famously awful for any kind of permanent conversation space or preservation, not helped by their absolutely abysmal search tools (plus if they do move forward with their very stupid decision to start working with crypto they're going to probably collapse when the crypto bubble bursts and that's no good for anyone).
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If they remove the forums I would cancel all of my subscriptions immediately because it would prove to me that they really don't honor what they say they value.
If a company states that they honor inclusiveness and then become exclusive at the cost of employees and customers. Then it is lip service.
I agree, merely speculating. I can see the argument to move away from forums and move into solely social media and a Discord Community that has built-in robust moderation tools and is right now are thriving community. A perfect example of such a Community is Find the Path, a fantastic place that is welcoming and inclusive.
OTOH: Building your community on someone else's platform means you will always be ceding some amount of autonomy. If Discord nuked their servers and backups, for example, all those communities would lose much of what allowed them to exist in the first place.
From what it sounds like, Paizo is understaffedThey have been using that excuse almost since they founded the company. Either they are unable to staff to the level they need to, or they are unwilling to.
Hey, that still in the OG package Boba Fett don't come cheap.
Jim Butler was promoted.Or they can advance 2 employees to VP, one who has not even been there a year.Clarification...I believe that they were both hired into VP roles.
Thanks for the correction, I must have misread the article.
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There are absolutely no valid points on the side of "trans women are not women". Get that crap out of here.