Hi
I have a doubt about how create a map, what i should use? Craft or profession?
We are using the exploration and Discovery Points rules in our campaign. I'm playing with a Gnome cartographer and I ran into a problem.
On these rules Exploration and Movimentsays:
"Documenting: The character spends the day mapping the territory or recording its features in a gazetteer and can attempt one skill check for each day spent documenting. Creating a map requires one or more successful Profession (cartographer) checks, while creating a gazetteer requires one or more successful Linguistics checks (at the GM’s discretion, other skill checks can be used in place of these). The number of checks needed equals the territory’s CR, and the DC equals the territory’s exploration check DC. Once the character has succeeded at the required checks, she has created a detailed map or gazetteer of the region, which grants a +5 circumstance bonus on future exploration checks in that territory (bonuses from multiple maps or gazetteers don’t stack)."
And the Expert Cartographer Feat say to use craft to make maps.
Which one i should use? And what is the diference between Craft(maps) and Profession (Cartographer)?
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What is really funny, to me, is that both the aforementioned options are completely made up for those options... I don't think Craft (maps) or Profession (cartographer) exist except for that specific ruleset and feat.
Craft (calligraphy) is already a thing.
Profession (scribe) is already a thing.
I would use whatever skill you have more ranks in, or a higher modifier for... whatever is most advantageous to the character.
The ruleset has extra options built in, as you bolded in the original post... a lot of people are pretty strict about what feats say. So I would just make the skill check for exploration match the skill check required by the feat. Simplest solutions are often best.
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The difference between a craft and a profession is kind of vague. But according to the core rule book crafts deal with the creation of specific items. Professions on the other hand are more about doing things that need to be done.
Craft (Mapmaking) would allow you to create a map that was a work of art. It may or may not be accurate, but it will look good. Profession (Cartographer) would also allow you to make a map, but it would not look as good, and may be difficult to understand. To make a map that is both accurate and easy to use might require both. It does not have to be a single person with both skills; you could have one person with the craft skill and one or more people with the professional skill working together.
There are probably a lot of crafts that require someone with the right professional skill to be effective. Craft (Carpentry) is not going to be all that useful without someone with the profession skill (Woodcutter).
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What is really funny, to me, is that both the aforementioned options are completely made up for those options... I don't think Craft (maps) or Profession (cartographer) exist except for that specific ruleset and feat.
Craft (calligraphy) is already a thing.
Profession (scribe) is already a thing.
I would use whatever skill you have more ranks in, or a higher modifier for... whatever is most advantageous to the character.
The ruleset has extra options built in, as you bolded in the original post... a lot of people are pretty strict about what feats say. So I would just make the skill check for exploration match the skill check required by the feat. Simplest solutions are often best.
i would require a combination of knowledge (geography) with the mentioned craft (calligraphy)as making an accurate map should be a complex thing.
also there is no failed map. the roll is how accurate it is. as any 3 year old can make a 'map' with a paper and some crayons
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What is really funny, to me, is that both the aforementioned options are completely made up for those options... I don't think Craft (maps) or Profession (cartographer) exist except for that specific ruleset and feat.
Craft (calligraphy) is already a thing.
Profession (scribe) is already a thing.
I would use whatever skill you have more ranks in, or a higher modifier for... whatever is most advantageous to the character.
The ruleset has extra options built in, as you bolded in the original post... a lot of people are pretty strict about what feats say. So I would just make the skill check for exploration match the skill check required by the feat. Simplest solutions are often best.
You are skilled in the creation of a specific group of items, such as armor or weapons. Like Knowledge, Perform, and Profession, Craft is actually a number of separate skills.
You could have several Craft skills, each with its own ranks.
The most common Craft skills are alchemy, armor, baskets, books, bows, calligraphy, carpentry, cloth, clothing, glass, jewelry, leather, locks, paintings, pottery, sculptures, ships, shoes, stonemasonry, traps, and weapons.
You are skilled at a specific job. Like Craft, Knowledge, and Perform, Profession is actually a number of separate skills.
You could have several Profession skills, each with its own ranks. While a Craft skill represents ability in creating an item, a Profession skill represents an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific knowledge.
The most common Profession skills are architect, baker, barrister, brewer, butcher, clerk, cook, courtesan, driver, engineer, farmer, fisherman, gambler, gardener, herbalist, innkeeper, librarian, merchant, midwife, miller, miner, porter, sailor, scribe, shepherd, stable master, soldier, tanner, trapper, and woodcutter.
"Most common" is very different from "the only existing". Craft (calligraphy) and Profession (scribe) give you 0 knowledge about driving a map to scale or measuring distance. You can use them to copy an existing Gazzette, maybe even an existing map, but will be of little help in making an original document.
Craft (maps) allow you to design the map when you have all the needed information, but it will not help you in gathering them. The craft check will affect how precise is the map when compared to the data you have, how readable it is, and how good-looking it is.
Profession (cartographer) includes the needed knowledge to do a survey of the land, measuring the distances, angles, elevation, etc. correctly. it will affect the quality of the information you gather. It includes the skill to craft the map with a passable degree of accuracy, but not as well as when it is made by someone with the Craft (maps) skill.
Expert Cartographer help with both things. You get a +4 in crafting the map, and you get a bonus in the Discovery points you get when exploring. If you use some generous method to give skill points to the players (like using background skills) you can ask the player to have both the Craft and Profession skills to make an outstanding product (no need to have both on the same character), but I would suggest you allow the players to craft the maps at a penalty with using the Profession skill but with the bonus of the feat. On the other hand, the feat requires Craft (maps), so probably the player will get a better product using the caft skill after gathering the raw data.
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It's worth noting that the Cartographer Investigator archetype doesn't require either Craft nor Profession to create a map. It does require the use of Craft: Alchemy to create special inks for maps, but I think that ties more into class abilities than anything else.
I lean more towards this sentiment...
also there is no failed map. the roll is how accurate it is. as any 3 year old can make a 'map' with a paper and some crayons
Much like they dropped the Use Rope skill from 3.5 because really most anyone can tie a knot, maybe there doesn't need to be a skill to create a functional map for personal use. If you're creating a map or maps to sell, and so need rules to determine GP valuation, I lean towards Craft because it creates a physical object that could be of varying quality.
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One of the problems is that we are speaking of at least 3 different kinds of maps:
1) a map that will allow me to return to a location and reach again hidden spots. Actual distance and angles are imprecise. I can depict 3 days of walking and the funny shaped rock that is the point where I need to change direction with a dotted line, 3 suns, and an out-of-scale depiction of the rock. No need to determine a compass heading or actual distance.
2) a medieval/renaissance map that is more a work of art than an actual depiction of the correct distances or angles, but shows the important landscapes or buildings. Useable for travel along the roads, less for wilderness travel.
3) A late renaissance, early modern era map, made with the best survey methods available, that can be used efficiently to prepare an expedition or military campaign and that allows you to see at a glance what areas haven't been explored.
My reply was mostly for 3), Craft (maps) alone work well for 2), anyone can make 1).
It's worth noting that the Cartographer Investigator archetype doesn't require either Craft nor Profession to create a map. It does require the use of Craft: Alchemy to create special inks for maps, but I think that ties more into class abilities than anything else.
In the Cartographer archetype says you can make maps with Knowledge (Geography). lol
Only in craft rules it counts raw materials (1/3 of item cost) to make a map.
Here comes one more question, what is the use of geography to make a map?
It's worth noting that the Cartographer Investigator archetype doesn't require either Craft nor Profession to create a map. It does require the use of Craft: Alchemy to create special inks for maps, but I think that ties more into class abilities than anything else.In the Cartographer archetype says you can make maps with Knowledge (Geography). lol
Ha! Whoops. When looking at the archetype, I did a Ctrl+F on "craft" and "prof" and neither showed up. Anyway, I guess throw Knowledge (geography) into the discussion, I guess.
Here comes one more question, what is the use of geography to make a map?
Well, if this question comes from the above archetype, Investigators can use a class ability towards certain Knowledge checks, but not every Craft check, or any Profession check, so that's why that specific archetype uses that skill to make maps. Maybe this archetype skews the the answers to your question. On the other hand, it provides hard rules for creating a map.
But looking at Knowledge (geography) specifically, it's a DC 15 check to "Recognize regional terrain features," and a DC 20 check to "Know location of nearest community or noteworthy site," both of which can be applied to making a map.
I know it says the listed examples are simply the most common... I just don't make a habit of reinventing the wheel.
Is it an existing Craft/Profession skill that has to do with pen and paper? Yes. Good enough for me. Scribble your little map.
By the time you explore a region to make a map, the map's benefits are pointless... in my opinion... and when I ran Kingmaker, a map of the hex came with the experience for exploring it.
If you want it to be more complicated than it has to be...
Is it for personal use? Craft.
Is it to sell for profit? Profession.
Except you can use the crafting skill to make money as well. (Obviously, I do like to make things more complicated than is needed…)