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Hi everyone,
As there are no guide to the Inventor yet, I've written a quick guide (well, with Modifications, it ended up being quite big). I haven't been able to play my Inventor much so it's more theorycrafting than actual experience, but it may help you to have a first grasp on this very interesting class.
Don't hesitate to comment and give me feedbacks. I'll take them very seriously and include them in the guide.
I'll soon take some time to include build examples and may review the Dedication for those who want to just dip in inventions.
I won't make a gadget guide, even if they are linked to the class. But if someone makes one, I'll be happy to put a link to it.
The guide!
A little strict on giving blue, and also a little biased when it comes to gadgets ( I get you you god unimpressed by gadgets, but what do you expected from them to be? or what do you like to see in the future ), but I liked it.
Good job there.
ps: I entirely approve the part on the wall pet. So strong.
Ancestry - Android - +Dex,+Int,+Free,-CHA. It can also grab true strike innate spell at 5th level (double that if you have a versatile Aphorite Heritage).
I agree that my guide starts without blue and gets more and more blue. I've found a lot of the Inventor features to be extremely situational, so it's hard to rate them blue or even green. But don't hesitate to tell me if you find some that you find underrated.
I'll look at the gadgets again, I may have done it too quickly.
The wall pet is nearly a purple to me. A one action wall with a crazy hit point pool (at that level the pet has 190 hps even if holes appear when you get to half of that). Also, unlike a normal wall, the pet has an actual AC (even if strongly lowered) and actual saves (but no hardness and critical immunity). You can dismiss it when you want. On top of that, at that level, you repair it for 25-75 hps per action with 85% chance to succeed. So you can get it back to full hp in one round if needed (you still need a nice GM to allow you to do that because the "ground is a flat surface", I can see GMs considering you need a specific place to do it).
The wall pet is among all these abilities that are unique to the Inventor. Many are situational, but still the strongest abilities of their kind.
I forgot Android, I'll add it.
About full automaton, wouldn't be better to take the purple and blue one from lvl 18?
To say it in a different way.
Knowing that there are 2 so good lvl 18 feat should affect the judgement towards full automaton? Or just a "tip" next to its description.
I mean, If I got right your judgement, you think that full automaton is strong, but you'd probably go with either Negate Damage and Devastating Weaponry.
Am I right?
It's a bit complicated as level 18 feats depend on your Innovation. You can take both of them thanks to level 19 feature, but they can't be used at the same time anyway. So, no, I think it's better to choose than to end up with a dead feat.
That's what I've pointed in the Inventor's features: It's super cool on paper to switch to different Innovations, but no one wants to do it actually.
SuperBidi wrote: It's a bit complicated as level 18 feats depend on your Innovation. You can take both of them thanks to level 19 feature, but they can't be used at the same time anyway. So, no, I think it's better to choose than to end up with a dead feat.
That's what I've pointed in the Inventor's features: It's super cool on paper to switch to different Innovations, but no one wants to do it actually.
I do understand what you are saying about the 19th perk.
I was considering getting some lvl 4/6 stoneskin and going with the weapon ( taking both devastating weaponry and negate damage ).
By lvl 19 it should be pretty cheap to do ( a lvl 4 stoneskin scroll il 70g, for example ).
Also, won't be better to have most of the time the quickened "strike" action? Or even better, the chance to choose between stride and strike?
I was thinking about a speed rune or casting the haste spell ( better the former one ).
Agreed with the comments questioning the yellow/red rating on gadgets. At the very least, ablative armor plating should be considered viable. They're about one-and-a-half shield blocks without needing an extra hand or spending reactions or being limited to physical damage.
I also don't value level 20 quickened feats very highly, especially those that don't give different actions other than stride or strike, seeing that at the highest of PC levels, level 7 haste is an easily expendable resource.
You mention Inventors good damage Potential and preference of armor Innovation. How would you build a damage armor inventor? Two handed weapon?
I think weapon has the niche of being a ranged striker. Megaton strike is interesting for ranged since with ranged you have more Problems than a melee to overcome resistances. Offensive boost for ranged also only works with weapon Innovation.
Dual weapon warrior might also be a great archetype for armor inventor. Dual slice works nicely with overdrive. Offensive boost sadly only works with one weapon later on though.
A nice addition to the guide would be weapon choices. I am partial to reach weapons on weapon inventor and i like the aspis coil shield setup.
HumbleGamer wrote: I was considering getting some lvl 4/6 stoneskin and going with the weapon ( taking both devastating weaponry and negate damage ). But you can't use Negate Damage with the Weapon Innovation. So, unless I've missed something, you have a dead feat, which is worse than an actual feat.
voideternal wrote: I also don't value level 20 quickened feats very highly, especially those that don't give different actions other than stride or strike, seeing that at the highest of PC levels, level 7 haste is an easily expendable resource. I agree that there are multiple sources of Quickened at high level. But I don't think they are a given at every combat. And Quickened is very nice for the Inventor as you are quite constrained in your action economy, that's why I don't put it green but blue.
Candlejake wrote: You mention Inventors good damage Potential and preference of armor Innovation. How would you build a damage armor inventor? Two handed weapon? Yes, very simply. Two-handed weapon Strenght Inventor. You should deal similar damage to a weapon Inventor up to level 15, when they get their nice damaging abilities.
Also, don't forget that the reason why I consider the Inventor a strong damage dealer is because of his potential for AoE damage, something that most Fighters, Barbarians and Rogues don't have.
Candlejake wrote: I think weapon has the niche of being a ranged striker. True. But Construct is also very nice for a ranged striker as it allows you to position your Explode/Megavolt easily.
Candlejake wrote: Dual weapon warrior might also be a great archetype for armor inventor. Dual slice works nicely with overdrive. Offensive boost sadly only works with one weapon later on though. For Dexterity-based Inventors, I fully agree, as two-handed Finesse weapons are really bad. For Strength-based Inventors, I disagree. Double Slice doesn't do more damage than 2 attacks with a two-hander but it forces you to use 2 actions to be efficient.
Candlejake wrote:
A nice addition to the guide would be weapon choices. I am partial to reach weapons on weapon inventor and i like the aspis coil shield setup.
Agree. I'll do that.
I think the +2 gadget feat at 8 is good enough. While not amazing, I think it's better than "simply bad".
Going from 3 gadgets to 5 is a sizeable upgrade imo.
Especially since I see multiple gadgets that I would want to have multiple times per day.
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I also don't feel that highly for shared overdrive. Mostly because of the prequisite. 2 damage (the majority of the time) bonus on an ally is good (but not amazing). But 2 damage that you have to spend an action each round is quite Meh.
So, in effect, imo, this should be "ranked" as costing 2 feats. And for 2 feats, I think it's not a Blue.
(2 feats could be something like getting flurry of blows as an example, or some different high level dedication feat)
I am not sure about the 8, but I agree that simply bad is a little too much.
with a lvl 4 feat an engineer can already have 3 gadgets per day ( 4 by lvl 15 ). Not much, but also they comes in exchange of a lvl 4 class feat.
The lvl 8 one gives half the gadgets and requires double the level ( 8 rather than 4 ), which could probably be used for something else ( dedication/archetype feat or a lower level feat ).
even if it would mean 5x ablative armor plating per day, starting by lvl 7, which is 3x the amount given by toughness or a shield block from a sturdy shield of the same level.
Taking that feat even until lvl 14 might be interesting.
Kinda sad I couldn't find anything good as the ablative armor plating, but this somehow makes things easier when it comes to choose.
shroudb wrote: I think the +2 gadget feat at 8 is good enough. While not amazing, I think it's better than "simply bad".
Going from 3 gadgets to 5 is a sizeable upgrade imo.
Especially since I see multiple gadgets that I would want to have multiple times per day.
Stop insisting all on gadgets, I've understood, I'll give them a closer look.
shroudb wrote: I also don't feel that highly for shared overdrive. Mostly because of the prequisite. 2 damage (the majority of the time) bonus on an ally is good (but not amazing). But 2 damage that you have to spend an action each round is quite Meh.
So, in effect, imo, this should be "ranked" as costing 2 feats. And for 2 feats, I think it's not a Blue.
(2 feats could be something like getting flurry of blows as an example, or some different high level dedication feat)
It definitely costs you 2 feats, but I don't judge prerequisites, prerequisites are judged when they appear. Otherwise, it becomes messy if the quality of a feat varies because of the prerequisites, it doesn't allow you to judge the feat by itself. In the same way, I don't modify the color of a feat if it is the prerequisite of a highly desirable feat.
So Overdrive Ally is orange and Shared Overdrive is blue. It's quite clear that the first one is quite bad and the second one is strong (but with a quite bad prerequisite).
Also, using Overdrive Ally with a normal success to Overdrive is a waste of an action. It's supposed to be used with critical successes only.
HumbleGamer wrote: I am not sure about the 8, but I agree that simply bad is a little too much.
with a lvl 4 feat an engineer can already have 3 gadgets per day ( 4 by lvl 15 ). Not much, but also they comes in exchange of a lvl 4 class feat.
The lvl 8 one gives half the gadgets and requires double the level ( 8 rather than 4 ), which could probably be used for something else ( dedication/archetype feat or a lower level feat ).
even if it would mean 5x ablative armor plating per day, starting by lvl 7, which is 3x the amount given by toughness or a shield block from a sturdy shield of the same level.
Taking that feat even until lvl 14 might be interesting.
Kinda sad I couldn't find anything good as the ablative armor plating, but this somehow makes things easier when it comes to choose.
I'll try to write a short ranking on the gadgets later on, but I disagree that ablative is the only good one.
Imo it's not even in my top 3.
(I'm not saying "you're wrong" what i think is that it's good that different gadgets appeal to different playstyles)
shroudb wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: I am not sure about the 8, but I agree that simply bad is a little too much.
with a lvl 4 feat an engineer can already have 3 gadgets per day ( 4 by lvl 15 ). Not much, but also they comes in exchange of a lvl 4 class feat.
The lvl 8 one gives half the gadgets and requires double the level ( 8 rather than 4 ), which could probably be used for something else ( dedication/archetype feat or a lower level feat ).
even if it would mean 5x ablative armor plating per day, starting by lvl 7, which is 3x the amount given by toughness or a shield block from a sturdy shield of the same level.
Taking that feat even until lvl 14 might be interesting.
Kinda sad I couldn't find anything good as the ablative armor plating, but this somehow makes things easier when it comes to choose.
I'll try to write a short ranking on the gadgets later on, but I disagree that ablative is the only good one.
Imo it's not even in my top 3.
(I'm not saying "you're wrong" what i think is that it's good that different gadgets appeal to different playstyles) No worry, I just gave them a quick glance and fell in love with the ablative armor plating.
Looking forward to read your ranking/tips.
shroudb wrote: I'll try to write a short ranking on the gadgets later on, but I disagree that ablative is the only good one.
Imo it's not even in my top 3.
(I'm not saying "you're wrong" what i think is that it's good that different gadgets appeal to different playstyles)
Try to make a guide (even a small one) out of it so I can link it from my guide.
Also, if you rank all gadgets, I may just ask you what color you give at gadgeting feats. You'll be in a better position to judge the feats based on your knowledge of gadgets.
SuperBidi wrote: shroudb wrote: I'll try to write a short ranking on the gadgets later on, but I disagree that ablative is the only good one.
Imo it's not even in my top 3.
(I'm not saying "you're wrong" what i think is that it's good that different gadgets appeal to different playstyles)
Try to make a guide (even a small one) out of it so I can link it from my guide.
Also, if you rank all gadgets, I may just ask you what color you give at gadgeting feats. You'll be in a better position to judge the feats based on your knowledge of gadgets. sure, i'll do that then!
as for the feats, i think i would rate them as blue for the base one (a handful of options can really open up your daily gameplay), green for the level 8 one (still a handful but a critical enough mass to reliably incorporate some of them in your routine to last all/most combats), and red for the level 12 one (red in general but camapign/party specific it may be bumped to like orange or something.)
Ok, I do that and wait for your small guide.
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my attempt on said gadget guide:
Guide
I think you forgot the ablative armor plating ( though you mentioned its sinergy with the ablative shield plating ).
Apart from that, I share the most of your advices.
As for wind up cart... why not using it with bombs or mines? :d
HumbleGamer wrote: I think you forgot the ablative armor plating ( though you mentioned its sinergy with the ablative shield plating ).
Apart from that, I share the most of your advices.
As for wind up cart... why not using it with bombs or mines? :d
it's supposed to be the normal "ablative plating" entry, with the (shield) just being referenced in the part where i mention the shield (hence the parenthesis).
i just did it this way to reduce clutter a bit since a lot of the stuff that apply to one apply to the other as well, but if it is not clear enough, i can make a separate entry.
(edit: changed the entry a bit to make it more clear)
as for wind-up cart notes:
it wont do anything for a mine, since the mine needs pressure on it to activate, even if you get it in place.
similarly for bombs, you would need some sort of remote detonation way to benefit from it, and i cant figure one.
The alchemist one which goes as a reaction? ( as for the mines i simply though a tiny cart go in the same spot of an enemy and boom, detonates, since it's on the same board ).
Can't remember his name ( was a low level feat meant to apply C4 on a wall or something similar ).
HumbleGamer wrote: The alchemist one which goes as a reaction? ( as for the mines i simply though a tiny cart go in the same spot of an enemy and boom, detonates, since it's on the same board ).
Can't remember his name ( was a low level feat meant to apply C4 on a wall or something similar ).
demolition charge.
it needs a minute to set up the charge, and the cart only lasts a minute.
so by the time you tie up the bombs on the cart it dissolves in your feet ^^
as for the mine, again, since it does state that it needs pressure by someone stepping on it (on the square) or from external source, i dont think that simply delivering it to the square is enough to blow them up. (let alone that RAW you can only put the mine on solid ground...)
Quote: priming it to explode when a creature steps on that square
shroudb wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: The alchemist one which goes as a reaction? ( as for the mines i simply though a tiny cart go in the same spot of an enemy and boom, detonates, since it's on the same board ).
Can't remember his name ( was a low level feat meant to apply C4 on a wall or something similar ).
demolition charge.
it needs a minute to set up the charge, and the cart only lasts a minute.
so by the time you tie up the bombs on the cart it dissolves in your feet ^^
as for the mine, again, since it does state that it needs pressure by someone stepping on it (on the square) or from external source, i dont think that simply delivering it to the square is enough to blow them up. (let alone that RAW you can only put the mine on solid ground...)
Quote: priming it to explode when a creature steps on that square Yeah you are right about either examples ( too bad. A toy cart full of explosive would have been awesome ).
Maybe you could set up the charges on a board and let the cart be driven by a familiar, who's also holding the board.
or some "magical glue" to fix the board on the toy cart.
Anyway, now that the raw mentions "stepping" I'll wait for the day we'll see anybody claiming that the mine does not activate if the enemy takes the stride action rather than step :d
HumbleGamer wrote:
Anyway, now that the raw mentions "stepping" I'll wait for the day we'll see anybody claiming that the mine does not activate if the enemy takes the stride action rather than step :d
it's lower case "step" as opposed to upper case Step ^^
it would take a heck of a ruleslawyer to wiggle this one through :P
Back to the main guide:
I find the SnB approach slightly better than Bidi gives it credit:
The main thing imo with a shield is that it allows a d8 weapon alongside a "free hand" (with Bastion) for stuff like Tamper and drawing out and using your Gadgets.
The new equipment for Shields also make it so that you have access to Trip and Shove while having both hands full.
Bastion also granting an extra reaction which is super helpful and the base dedication's reaction also helps with action economy since on the rounds you overextend and you don't get to raise your shield you still have a good reactions to fall upon.
granted, my Inventor is not yet high enough level, but for the time being he is using a shield+gauntlet, and he will switch to shield+necksplitter at 6, so I'll know how he fares better a bit later on.
I was too into the bastion archetype for the shieldblock feature, but then I realized there's also the witch dedication ( multitalented by lvl 9 and life boost by lvl 10 ).
This will give fast healing equal to a single shield block from a sturdy shield ( for 4 rounds ), and the access to the shield cantrip ( +1 AC even with 2 handed weapon, and a 20/25 DR reaction ).
You could anyway also use a shield in additionto this ( getting 5 more DR compared to the Negate Damage skill, when the shield is raised, for at least 4 rounds ).
Finally, using contingency to get 2x temporary HP ( armor ) when needed.
HumbleGamer wrote: I was too into the bastion archetype for the shieldblock feature, but then I realized there's also the witch dedication ( multitalented by lvl 9 and life boost by lvl 10 ).
This will give fast healing equal to a single shield block from a sturdy shield ( for 4 rounds ), and the access to the shield cantrip ( +1 AC even with 2 handed weapon, and a 20/25 DR reaction ).
You could anyway also use a shield in additionto this ( getting 5 more DR compared to the Negate Damage skill, when the shield is raised, for at least 4 rounds ).
Finally, using contingency to get 2x temporary HP ( armor ) when needed.
Leaving aside the fact that this is human specific, shield block should be (as you pointed out) more or less the same HP as the the fast healing, so that's a wash there (one gives a "free action healing of X, the other gives a free reaction of absorb X).
but you have to spend an extra action to get the healing rolling, and the shield cantrip is 1 lower ac rather than raise shield.
But the more important thing for me would be the no free hands for Tamper and Gadgets and no maneuvers available to me, while i have both of those open with Bastion.
It takes 1 general feat to get adopted ancestry Human, if you are not human.
Not so much.
The action to trigger the fast healing can be done on the first round ( since it triggers at the beginning of the round ).
For example, Life boost + Stride + Strike
or ( if quickened or with speed rune ) Life boost + Overdrive + stride + strike.
Given the lvl 7 weapon perk, you could use gadgets as a free hand, but I'd probably use them before the combat, and only the temp hp ones. Also because I'd go for the silver/cold iron feature ( in order to use the oricalcum one at higher levels ).
as for the shield cantrip yes, it's true it would give less circ bonus, but the DR would be higher. Probably would be the best with a two handed weapon, I do agree here.
I'll try to twak something ( maybe I'll be able to take either bastion and witch dedication. who knows ).
HumbleGamer wrote: It takes 1 general feat to get adopted ancestry Human, if you are not human.
Not so much.
The action to trigger the fast healing can be done on the first round ( since it triggers at the beginning of the round ).
For example, Life boost + Stride + Strike
or ( if quickened or with speed rune ) Life boost + Overdrive + stride + strike.
Given the lvl 7 weapon perk, you could use gadgets as a free hand, but I'd probably use them before the combat, and only the temp hp ones. Also because I'd go for the silver/cold iron feature ( in order to use the oricalcum one at higher levels ).
as for the shield cantrip yes, it's true it would give less circ bonus, but the DR would be higher. Probably would be the best with a two handed weapon, I do agree here.
I'll try to twak something ( maybe I'll be able to take either bastion and witch dedication. who knows ).
well... the key difference here is that you are a weapon inventor and i am an armor inventor^^
so no free hand weapon perk or extra maneuvers on my weapons perk.
general feats are also kinda slim for non-humans until higher levels, with fleet and toughness and etc, plus i like my ferocity and my +1 to saves, it's not like i have ancestry feats to burn (i mean, i already have to make a choice between a better weapon+weapon spec vs constnt +1save vs spells, although i will probably go for the latter)
all in all, it looks to me like different approaches *work* which is a very good sign for the class viability.
Kinda cant believe the ablative plating gadget isnt a mistake and is missing an interact action to activate. 10 min work time for 1 min temp hp has to be an error.
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Is the Inventor really tanky enough to say it tanks like a Champion or Monk? He's behind in AC even with the heavy power armor innovation. His tight action economy probabaly doesn't allow him to use defensive actions very often (raise shield, move away, etc).
The only thing making him tanky seems to be the damage resistance innovations but those are quite limited in availability, not to mention situational. The most useful one would be the one with all physical resistance, but you can't get that if you want heavy power armor (which you probably do).
So that leaves Negate Damage. Great for one or two rounds per fight. And only if you don't plan on using any other unstable abilities. Without unstable, it still reduces damage by 15, which is nice but the Champion did that 8 levels ago with his sturdy shield + shield ally, possibly twice per turn.
So the best I could think of would be heavy power armor with Negate Damage and resistance to all non-physical damage. That's admittedly a pretty sturdy setup for a high damage martial, but with the lower HP and AC I'm not sure I'd call that "as tanky as a champion".
Good to have some free Inventor guide stuff out there for PF2e, SuperBidi. ;)
Blave wrote:
So the best I could think of would be heavy power armor with Negate Damage and resistance to all non-physical damage. That's admittedly a pretty sturdy setup for a high damage martial, but with the lower HP and AC I'm not sure I'd call that "as tanky as a champion".
I think you can't do that.
Moving from medium to heavy armor is a lvl 7 breakthrough feat, while getting resistance to all physical damage requires you to have piercing/bludgeoning/slashing resistance as lvl 7 breakthrough feat, and also expend a lvl 15 revolutionary feat to unlock it.
So it's either medium armor with physical DR or Heavy armor with... another revolutionary feat.
They can both benefit from negate damage though.
Blave wrote: Is the Inventor really tanky enough to say it tanks like a Champion or Monk? That's a tough question to answer.
The Champion has:
- +2 AC during 60% of its career.
- Access to Heavy Armor.
- Divine Grace. It eats up your reaction but it's strong and the only ability to tank spells.
- Sacred Defender at level 20.
- Shield ally to improve Shield tanking.
- Lay on Hands.
- 2 extra hp per level.
Most of the Champion's advantages are built in the class, feats don't improve them much. But more importantly: Outside Divine Grace, the Champion only tanks AC-based attacks.
The Inventor, on the other hand, doesn't have built-in tankyness but a lot of options:
- Resistances to a lot of things available right at level 1.
- Access to Heavy Armor at level 7 (for a price).
- Negate Damage at level 18.
- Ways to get miss chance (either through Subterfuge Armor or some gadgets).
- Temporary hit points with some Gadgets (I'm still reading Shroudb guide, but it looks like I've overlooked Gadgets as there are some nice gems).
- Neutral alignment (or resistances to alignment-based damage).
- Searing Restoration at level 2.
So, who's the toughest? In my opinion, it really depends on what you have to tank.
As a side note, I think Subterfuge Armor tanks better than Power Armor once you get access to Camouflage Pigmentation (and if you take Subtle Dampeners). It costs you one action every time you want to tank and you have chances to fail your check but 50% miss chance is crazy awesome.
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There's more to considerate:
Champion has, in addition to what you said:
- Access to improved saving throws way before the engineer
- 10hp per level rather than 8hp per level
- Autorezz by lvl 19 as a free action
- Permanent DR by lvl 20 ( against evil creatures. But since you won't be fighting with good ones and a huge part of neutral, leaving apart trying the diplomat approach, it covers almost everything )
Leaving apart a champion could provide 16x2 DR everty round by lvl 14, as well as 2 lay on hands per combat ( considering a 4 round combat it would result into 48x2 = 96 + 16/26 x2 ( considering only basic damage as well as creatures with different kind of damage, which would be annihilated by his reaction )= 128/208 Damage prevented = between 232/304 damage healed/prevented per fight ( leaving apart anything from his shield block ).
The engineer at some point will be able to resist a lot of more damage, but that's it. Being 3 point AC behind ( since you have to choose between heavy armor or physical DR ), with 40 less hp and no way to properly protect others ( making the enemy willingfully focus you ) just makes the engineer a sturdy character, once he hit lvl 18 ( provided negate damage and permanent physical DR ). by lvl 15 his DR can be achieved more or less by a simple lvl 4 stoneskin on the champion ( he could even cast it himself if he wanted ).
HumbleGamer wrote: There's more to considerate:
Champion has, in addition to what you said:
- Access to improved saving throws way before the engineer
- 10hp per level rather than 8hp per level
- Autorezz by lvl 19 as a free action
- Permanent DR by lvl 20 ( against evil creatures. But since you won't be fighting with good ones and a huge part of neutral, leaving apart trying the diplomat approach, it covers almost everything )
Leaving apart a champion could provide 16x2 DR everty round by lvl 14, as well as 2 lay on hands per combat ( considering a 4 round combat it would result into 48x2 = 96 + 16/26 x2 ( considering only basic damage as well as creatures with different kind of damage, which would be annihilated by his reaction )= 128/208 Damage prevented = between 232/304 damage healed/prevented per fight ( leaving apart anything from his shield block ).
The engineer at some point will be able to resist a lot of more damage, but that's it. Being 3 point AC before ( since you have to choose between heavy armor or physical DR ), with 40 less hp and no way to properly protect others ( making the enemy willingfully focus you ) just makes the engineer a sturdy character, once he hit lvl 18 ( provided negate damage and permanent physical DR ). by lvl 15 his DR can be achieved more or less by a simple lvl 4 stoneskin on the champion ( he could even cast it himself if he wanted ).
I forgot the hp difference, I've added it. I agree there's a difference in saves, too (not negligeable but not crazy, as the Inventor gets increases 2 levels earlier for Reflex but 8 levels later for Fortitude).
I've only spoken of tankyness. If what you want is a Tank (with capital T) then a Champion is definitely the best choice as unlike Inventor you'll have ways to attract attention. But if we talk about tankiness (small t) then I still think the Inventor can last as much as a Champion, depending on the situation and how you built it.
As a side note, if you can apply one of your DRs to an enemy Strike, you tank as much as if you had +2 AC and no DR (and even +3 for those DRs that add +2 to +5 to the damage reduction). So the Engineer ability to have very wide DRs shouldn't be overlooked. And 20% miss chance is equivalent to +2 to AC and 50% miss chance to +6 to AC, and it also applies to targetted spells.
HumbleGamer wrote: Blave wrote:
So the best I could think of would be heavy power armor with Negate Damage and resistance to all non-physical damage. That's admittedly a pretty sturdy setup for a high damage martial, but with the lower HP and AC I'm not sure I'd call that "as tanky as a champion".
I think you can't do that.
Moving from medium to heavy armor is a lvl 7 breakthrough feat, while getting resistance to all physical damage requires you to have piercing/bludgeoning/slashing resistance as lvl 7 breakthrough feat, and also expend a lvl 15 revolutionary feat to unlock it.
So it's either medium armor with physical DR or Heavy armor with... another revolutionary feat.
They can both benefit from negate damage though.
The example I gave was heavy armor and resistance to all NON-physical damage. I even specified in my post that it is impossible to get heavy armor and resistance to all physical :)
I agree that the Inventor is a very potent damage dealer who can be surprisingly sturdy for a 8 HP class if you choose the armor innovation. I think overall he's about where I see a defensively built Animal Barbarian (using heavy armor and a shield), which is a very good spot to be.
As for the gadget discussion, I think they are ok. As with many temporary items, the main problem I have with them is that you don't get that many formulas for free. If you want to keep them relevant, you need to keep buying formulas. That's actually quite the investment, especially since you can craft them up to your level (unlike say someone with alchemist dedication).
And since most (or even all?) of them are uncommon or rare, they can be hard to come by and you can't use your Inventor feat to get them.
Blave wrote: And since most (or even all?) of them are uncommon or rare, they can be hard to come by and you can't use your Inventor feat to get them. You get 9 Uncommon Formulas with the Gadget Specialist feat, 3 at 4, 3 at 7 and 3 at 15. It should cover a lot of your needs.
Blave wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: Blave wrote:
So the best I could think of would be heavy power armor with Negate Damage and resistance to all non-physical damage. That's admittedly a pretty sturdy setup for a high damage martial, but with the lower HP and AC I'm not sure I'd call that "as tanky as a champion".
I think you can't do that.
Moving from medium to heavy armor is a lvl 7 breakthrough feat, while getting resistance to all physical damage requires you to have piercing/bludgeoning/slashing resistance as lvl 7 breakthrough feat, and also expend a lvl 15 revolutionary feat to unlock it.
So it's either medium armor with physical DR or Heavy armor with... another revolutionary feat.
They can both benefit from negate damage though.
The example I gave was heavy armor and resistance to all NON-physical damage. I even specified in my post that it is impossible to get heavy armor and resistance to all physical :)
Missed that! ;)
Blave wrote:
As for the gadget discussion, I think they are ok. As with many temporary items, the main problem I have with them is that you don't get that many formulas for free. If you want to keep them relevant, you need to keep buying formulas. That's actually quite the investment, especially since you can craft them up to your level (unlike say someone with alchemist dedication).
And since most (or even all?) of them are uncommon or rare, they can be hard to come by and you can't use your Inventor feat to get them.
Uncommon formulas are indeed nasty, but given the gadget pool of choice they are imo quite ok ( and not a big issue when it comes to golds ).
Formulas cost
For example, by lvl 13 ( since youn will be between lvl 7 and lvl 15 for the free ones given by the lvl 4 feat ) you'd want to get an ablative armor plating it would be around 325 ( the lvl 15 DC, since it's an uncommon formula. Or the DM may be kind and give it for the lvl 13 cost which is 150 ).
Once you have the formula, you can use it for your daily gadgets.
Apart from that, as mentioned before, we are lucky there are just a couple of really useful ones ( like the already mentioned ablative armor platin ), so if you keep getting its update version, you'll mostly be fine when it comes to combat encounters.
But maybe it's just me the ones who'll always go spamming ablative plating armors. Can't tell :d
SuperBidi wrote: Blave wrote: And since most (or even all?) of them are uncommon or rare, they can be hard to come by and you can't use your Inventor feat to get them. You get 9 Uncommon Formulas with the Gadget Specialist feat, 3 at 4, 3 at 7 and 3 at 15. It should cover a lot of your needs. A lot? Sure. But with many gadgets having multiple versions across all levels, you probably still need to buy a good number of formulas if you want to keep them relevant during your whole career.
There's also the chance of more future Gadgets. We don't have too many - yet. But that can change.
Blave wrote: SuperBidi wrote: Blave wrote: And since most (or even all?) of them are uncommon or rare, they can be hard to come by and you can't use your Inventor feat to get them. You get 9 Uncommon Formulas with the Gadget Specialist feat, 3 at 4, 3 at 7 and 3 at 15. It should cover a lot of your needs. A lot? Sure. But with many gadgets having multiple versions across all levels, you probably still need to buy a good number of formulas if you want to keep them relevant during your whole career.
There's also the chance of more future Gadgets. We don't have too many - yet. But that can change. If you're fine with waiting a bit before taking each Gadgets, I think you can live with the 9 free Formulas.
As a side note, as a great fan of the Alchemist, I'd not wait for too many extra Gadgets. My experience is that the new released items are rarely interesting.
I've removed my comment that the Armor Inventor can be as tanky as a Champion. I'll wait for mine to be high level to know if it can really compete.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
The Inventor is itself an uncommon class. I think if your GM is letting you play it, other uncommon options from the same book are probably a given. My own GM has shifted his policy of "check with me if it is uncommon or rare" to "check with me if it is rare for G&G content."
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The book is set up to allow a GM to easily make separate calls on whether guns and/or gears are in play in their setting. So while they may allow inventor, I would not presume that to imply the guns half of the book is available broadly.
I wouldn't say that armor inventor is a tank in the sense that a champion is (protecting otgers)
I think he's mostly a brawler. A more durable martial that can stand his ground and draw some enemies to him solely through the virtue of being "in your face".
As an example for how I envision my own inventor to play later on it would be something like:
Start with raised shield from exploration, jump to the fray (using blast boots if needed) with his first action and then exploding if there are multiple enemies. Or overclock, jump, strike/trip/grab.
Now I'm in their face dealing damage, and relying on heavy armor +2xShield block and my elemental resistances to hold my ground.
shroudb wrote: I wouldn't say that armor inventor is a tank in the sense that a champion is (protecting otgers)
I think he's mostly a brawler. A more durable martial that can stand his ground and draw some enemies to him solely through the virtue of being "in your face".
As an example for how I envision my own inventor to play later on it would be something like:
Start with raised shield from exploration, jump to the fray (using blast boots if needed) with his first action and then exploding if there are multiple enemies. Or overclock, jump, strike/trip/grab.
Now I'm in their face dealing damage, and relying on heavy armor +2xShield block and my elemental resistances to hold my ground.
That's something I fine really interesting about the Inventor, there are really a bunch of available builds and possibilities.
My Armor Inventor will rely on Subterfuge Armor, Hiding at the end of her rounds to get 50% miss chance and using Attack of Opportunity if an enemy decides to ignore her.
One aspect that's useful to Variable Core that you didn't mention - Fire is a very commonly resisted damage type, even if it's also a common weakness.
Dubious Scholar wrote: One aspect that's useful to Variable Core that you didn't mention - Fire is a very commonly resisted damage type, even if it's also a common weakness. The thing is: Explode is not an ability that you have to use to be efficient. It's a circumstancial ability that you will use when the proper situation arise. So it's not that important if it's commonly resisted as you will just use another Unstable ability in these cases. On the other hand, it's very handy if it's sometimes exploiting a weakness.
That's why I see Variable Core only as a way to change the damage type you take. Because Fire is the perfect damage type for Explode.
An important cost to miss chance is that it also makes you avoid heals and buffs. Just something to consider.
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