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Actually, according to the rules, Evil implies "hurting, oppressing, and killing others." Those are not singular things. You can't just reach in a say "Evil is hurting ... others'. That is taking the issue out of context and creating a logical inconsitency. Hurting can mean very different things, from a tiny amount of pain to outright torture. Hurting AND oppressing AND killing, used together, imply something fairly specific. It goes on to say that some do these things out of a lack of compassion (ie, are willing to do it if it is convenient to do so) or that they actively enjoy doing it.
Fair point. I might have been reading too much into it. And i know Pathfinder was not written to hold ''pure RAW'' scrutiny so taking everything within context is important.
By no means are Paladins forbidden from hurting or killing Evil creatures. Killing is a neutral action in a vacuum. Animals hurt and kill each other without alignment issues. A Paladin using violence to subdue and apprehend (or execute) an evil criminal is certainly justified. How that Paladin goes about it, why they are going about it, determine whether the action is Lawful or Chaotic. The action is neither Good nor Evil. It is merely an action.
I'm not sure i would call killing neutral within Pathfinder's morality, but i'm not totally unconvinced either. Animals being devoid of morality is generally justified because they don't have moral sentience, otherwise Cats would totally be ''Evil'' by what they do to birds.
I'd point you more towards alignment being a specific kind of universal force that people align themselves with. Things can get a bit more sticky in the Outer Planes where being can be made up of these forces. But that is outside the discussion of Paladins and their role.
Yeah that's actually what i meant. Alignement in pathfinder are real in the sense that they aren't merely conceptual.
Feel free to judge away! I won't take offense to what you say. This is just an free exchange of ideas and discussions of paradigms within a game system. It is not like its reflective of my real life worldview.
Cool! Just wanted to make sure, written communication is not ideal to convey intent and tone at times.
I think you convinced me that it is a working system if you apply some judgement.
When i look at the game moral framework though, i feels like it's a weird melting pot of consequentialism and deontological ethics mixed together without a clear definition of what it's core concept means.
Still thanks for explaining, i can at least understand your point of view now!
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There is something about the Paladin that transcends both Good and Law... hope. This is where I break from a lot of peoples' apparent views on the role of a Paladin.
Beyond the boundaries of any alignment, beyond the tethers of reality, itself... alone in the darkness, there is the Paladin. Or, moreso, the Paldin's willpower fueling a freaking lighthouse shining hope out into the abyss to guide the weak and the lost and the weary.
If the Paldin, herself, does not possess this unbreakable willpower... she isn't a Paladin. That is what defines her role in this universe and the next. Her shining willpower is the very reason her deity chose her to channel their power through. The Paladin's real power was already there before their god gave them the ability to Smite Evil.
You cannot send anyone else to do that job. Nobody Paladins like a Paladin.
All that matters far more, to me, than the baggage of Good and Law.
Your very existence encourages people. You show up and fight the evilest of Evils. You embody courage. You don't preach sermons, because you don't have to. Your actions speak more than any metaphorical parables.
You have healing powers granted by your god so can do something for all those weak and tired and weary that gravitate to your stalwart, shining will. And so you can heal yourself doing your godd@mn job... which is nothing other than exacting the vengeance of your god.
For everything else, there is something else. You send Clerics to heal the masses, or support troops, or perform Miracles. Your send Warpriests to be the troops. You have Inquisitors to seek out and punish heretics. And, they all get to be whatever alignment happens to suit them... they don't have near the baggage.
All other classes/characters also do not shoulder the burden, the momentous weight, of the responsibility of representing hope.
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@Deathless one
You say, within the space of 30ish minutes, that there are no innocents on the outer planes and that being in hell does not make one evil.
There is a pretty clear contradcition here.
Perhaps you should not take every statement as a universal statement, and make a little room for exceptions to exist. That is the way I approach these topics and never make assumptions that everything is one way all the time.
Your argument is a combination of "everyone in the outer planes deserves to be there", which is easily refuted, and "if someone is there who should not be there then Pharasma to the rescue" finished by "Therefor, no Demon Lord could actually offer to release innocent souls".
Everyone JUDGED by Pharasma in the Outer Planes deserves to be there. Naturally, if someone is there that hasnt been judged, then there is something strange going on.
You have a seperate argument that only souls can be offered for souls, with which I also disagree (military aid by a lesser evil in return for for a soul freely given can prevent a situation in which greater evil just takes souls by force).
I never said only souls can be traded for souls. I said that a Paladin's soul should never be traded.
It should be obvious that this is not the case. The outer planes are full of souls and people who do not belong there, Pharasmas power is not infinite (not even on her own boneyard, as is shown by the constant predation of Sakhils and Daemons there) and Demon Lords, particular fairly diplomatic ones can certainly offer to release innocents as an incentive. What more sure way to gain a mortals allegiance then by offering him what he actually wants, both theologically and emotionally? To save people in the case of a Paladin.
Pharasma is one of the greater deities and, lore wise, is seated to judge everything before the end occurs. I'd say her power is fairly established. Regardless, I am not here to argue DM/GM fiat, merely the role of the Paladin.
Also:
No compromise. No mutual pacts. No non-aggression pact.Objectively wrong I fear.
Objectively wrong? In a fictional setting? From the fictional character that I would play as a Paladin? I am afraid not.
Iomedae compromised and cooperated with Asmodeus, who is clearly evil, for the much of the Mendevian crusade, as did the other gods of the crusade.
In addition, Torag, Erastil, Abadar, Sarenrae and Apsu all cooperated with the likes of Dahak and Asmodeus against Rovagug.Shelyn strives to essentially have non aggression pacts with as many entities as possible, and her relationship with Zun Kuthon has partially aspects of an alliance (it is not really an alliance, but still Zun Kuthon actively rewards followers of his who save Shelynites).
The actions of the deities do not concern me. It is their role to deal with the politics of the Outer Planes.
Unless you constantly hold Paladins to higher standards then the deities they follow, possibilities for compromise, mutual pacts,...
I do. Deities are fallible. So are Paladins. Their oaths and their ideals are not. Paladins, Deities, etc... They are all doomed to fail reaching that ideal of perfection. It is still admirable to strive for it.
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I played a LG Samurai once that basically had a Paladin's code. Before every fight and sometimes again during the middle of it, he offered his opponents mercy and chances for redemption. Even absurdly evil people too. Enemies who surrender after they've already lost though were put to the sword. If you have to be beaten within an inch of your life to turn a new leaf, you're not finding redemption, but taking the path of least resistance and trying not to die.
As far as a Paladin trading their life or soul to save others? Absolutely. What purpose does ensuring your own eternal reward have in the service of Good? That's just selfish.
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I played a LG Samurai once that basically had a Paladin's code. Before every fight and sometimes again during the middle of it, he offered his opponents mercy and chances for redemption. Even absurdly evil people too. Enemies who surrender after they've already lost though were put to the sword. If you have to be beaten within an inch of your life to turn a new leaf, you're not finding redemption, but taking the path of least resistance and trying not to die.
As far as a Paladin trading their life or soul to save others? Absolutely. What purpose does ensuring your own eternal reward have in the service of Good? That's just selfish.
I like Apsu's Paladin code for newer players who are struggling to play a Paladin without being "Lawful-Nice" or "Lawful-Stupid".
Paladins of Apsu valiantly follow the dragon god’s tenets of holy vigilance against evil. Those following the rigid code of a paladin must sacrifice the sedentary lifestyle of living in a single place in exchange for continuous travel and hardship. The tenets of such paladins include the following maxims.
- I am the talon of Apsu’s wrath. I strike where I am needed, but only when evil has been unmasked and there can be no doubt of my enemy’s malice.
- When my purpose is unclear, I will walk the roads of the world to find a fresh focus. Every road leads to a new beginning.
- Nothing is worth sacrificing my life for, except protecting the lives of others. I will retreat when needed, and come back to vex my foes once again.
- Mercy is offered, but only once. Should I be betrayed in my moment of kindness, I will not stop until I have put my enemy down.
- It is not enough to slay evil and carry on. I will spend the time necessary to help those I’ve protected to fend for themselves.
The two points I've emphasized particularly seem to be a problem for some people.
- Paladins should be the bastion of goodness that stands between the innocent and the hoards of evil, but you don't need to throw your life away for no reason.
- You can offer mercy, but you don't have to be an idiot about it.
I also like the final point about helping people fend for themselves - solving a problem for someone is a short-term solution, while teaching them to solve it themselves is a long-term fix. I haven't seen it come up as much, but I think it fits the Paladin ethos perfectly. It's maybe a good thing to emphasize with your lawful-stupid players.
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@Deathless one
There is, by their deeds, not a single major lawful good/neutral good/Chaotic good/lawfull neutral deity that actually agrees with you. Mind you, your take would make for an interesting character, but well, you proposing that there is no cooperation between good and evil, and me showing that literally all of the lawful good major deity disagree with you, by their deeds not by their words, is about as objectively wrong you can get when discussing fantasy.
You are reading too much into my statement again, taking everything as a universal imperative rather than keeping the subject isolated to the context it was offered in. To be concise on the issue, my Paladin will not cooperate with Evil and willingly sacrifice his soul to be used by those forces. Do not read that sentence as "Will not cooperate with Evil" and "Will not willingly sacrifice his soul" as separate statements. It is in situation that BOTH occur that he will not participate in. It is an Evil act, will result in a fall, and knowingly agreeing to the pact with full knowledge of the implications going forward would not qualify him for atonement.
As I stated before, I don't care about the actions of the deities. Those are, and have always been, GM/DM fiat. They are plot devices. My character is not.
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On the current topic though, a few points for clarification. I'm not sure how to do quotes from multiple posters, so please try and pick up from context.
It’s pretty easy. Just copy/paste the part you want to quote, then wrap quote tags around it.
Thus:
A lot of nonsense.
It tells you how, if you click the “how to format your text” button at the bottom. But you already know that.
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Now listen, this is gonna be more of a rant then anything and i have no delusion in thinking people are gonna agree with me on this right? But i feel i can confidently say that Paladins are the weakest of the 4th level casters to the point where i feel most full martials can outperform a paladin, where as they would likely struggle against the others(Assuming optimization of course) Let me explain why...snip
The biggest downside of a big claim such as "The worst of all X." is that you're trying to do something kind of impossible in this case. Very few things can be worst at something when there is as many scenarios for it as there are players and then some. There's some astounding ego here if you believe you can account for every metric a class can be based on in such an unbalanced eco system.
In a game where diseases are common and saves are important, a paladin shines a lot more than say a fighter. Hard to use all your feats when you're suffering leprosy. And sure, you could say that's a strawman or a nitpick scenario, but that's the point, you can't account for every situation out there.
It's a roleplay game after all, not rollplay. It makes sense the Paladin is behind bloodrager in damage. The bloodrager isn't as tanky and resilient as the Paladin is, the bloodrager can't assist the party in the same way either.
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Reading through this thread was both interesting and fun. It’s interesting to see how, a decade after Pathfinder 1E launched, a core class can continue to divide opinion so much. What’s great in one person’s eyes is suboptimal (or even terrible) to someone else.
To address the OP’s concerns about spellcasting, the effectiveness of the Paladin’s spell list largely comes down to whether a given battle allows for preparation, and the distance between the PCs and the enemy during the surprise round. Do I wish my Paladin had a more expanded spell list? Absolutely. Straight off the bat, though, he has the ability to automatically confirm critical hits. Saddle Surge adds a hefty damage bonus. When Sky Steed (or, hopefully soon, a magical item) or Aquatic Stallion can be cast on his trusty horse, things gets even more interesting. Then we have Unsanctioned Knowledge, which opens further doors. Without even trying to get creative, for example, Divine Power is like Diet Smite on its own, for when an enemy doesn’t glow red. Thanks to Magical Knack, the hit to his caster level is minimal.
Tanking-wise? Thanks to Envoy of Healing, my Paladin re-rolls 1s when using Lay on Hands. Thanks to Fey Foundling, he adds an additional 2 points per die rolled. This level, that translates to an average of 38.5 hit points healed as a swift action, every round. With Divine Interference, he sacrifices a 1st-level spell as an immediate action to get that BBEG re-roll his critical hit. With Hero’s Defiance, he needs to be knocked beyond -58 HP (on average) to actually die in that moment. Sure, there was that one time when a cannibal Stone Giant rolled a natural 20 with a heavy pick *after* the Paladin wasted his swift action, but other than that he’s happy to be the center of the enemy’s attention.
Damage-wise? I don’t know what passes for a respectable DPR (and it’s not something I built this character for), but going by the old DPR formula, he averages just over 200 (factoring in a critical range of 15-20). When under some kind of haste effect, his DPR. Is over 250. That’s including magic weapon qualities added by his Divine Bond buffs, but not other buffs (see above). If I’d gone the Mounted Skirmisher route (*shakes fist at 2020 self*), my Paladin’s DPR would be touching or even exceeding 300.
Ethos-wise? My Paladin respecting legitimate authority, acting with honor, helping those in need, punishing those who harm or threaten innocents, and not willingly committing evil acts doesn’t mean he can only be a terrifying zealot. To each their own, of course, but my Paladin is a man of the people for whom healing wounds, curing diseases, removing curses, and restoring sight, hearing and even limbs for the poor (always free of charge!) is as important as smiting evil dragons, evil outsiders, and the undead into orbit. He recognizes that not all evil is equal, however, and that for many people it is a symptom of cruel and unjust conditions. That’s why he applies the Merciful quality on his falchion, and/or uses Cry of Mercy to reduce unnecessary bloodshed. His maxed-out Sense Motive and spells like Discern Lies can separate the redeemable from the irredeemable, while his maxed out Diplomacy and massive Charisma can put the former back on the road to righteousness.
Last but not least, I absolutely LOL’d when the notion of Paladin hygiene came up with regard to allies wanting to be within his Aura’s radius… because my Paladin scrupulously casts Fastidiousness each and every morning, ensuring that his person and equipment stay clean AND dry all day and night.
The above reflects 15th-level vanilla Paladin—no Archetype or Oath. He runs on maxed-out Charisma, swings a Divine Bond falchion with Power Attack, AND rides the smartest horse in the world (courtesy of Nature Soul and Animal Ally). He by no means hits the hardest a Paladin can, however, nor does he tank or heal as well as this class can. There are certainly traits and feats that go a long way toward optimizing a Paladin, but—humble opinion—there is a lot of fun and utility to be found in the class regardless.
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Paladin Necromancy? Okay . . . .
I don't think it's fair to use the the hard-coded alignment restriction on a Paladin -- objectionable though that is on anything that isn't a prestige class(*) -- as part of the comparison with the other 3 4/9 casters in the original post. After all, those could be Lawful Good, and the fair comparison then would be between a Paladin and Lawful Good examples of each.
(*)Too bad that the Prestige Paladin idea never took off.
But to get back to the original question: At one time I would have been inclined to agree that the Paladin (along with the Antipaladin) is the weakest 4/9 caster, or at least tied with the Ranger as such. Until I examined their spell list (NOT DONE YET) as part of reviewing spells for the discussion thread for IluzryMage's Antipaladin/Paladin Guide. Then I realized that they actually have some pretty good spells, that are still pretty good even at impaired caster level, with a decent subset that are Swift Action cast (more than in your average spell list), and some that don't trigger a Save from your enemies. sure, they have some stinkers too, but who doesn't? At least this is true at 1st and 2nd levels -- I haven't yet gotten to reviewing 3rd and 4th levels yet. Somebody else in that discussion thread even reported that they were able to get pretty good mileage out of (almost) exclusively choosing only the Swift Action cast spells.
And I have to disagree with the original poster about Child of Acavna and Amaznen Fighter being good at anything. Impaired martial proficiency; impaired action economy; impaired armor (because the Arcane Armor Training only goes so far in negating Arcane Spell Failure); greatly reduced number of bonus feats; no weapon training; and a 4/9 subset of Wizard spellcasting with no compensation means just really weak spellcasting, even without the caster level impairment that Paladin and Ranger have. If you want to fit into the Child of Acavna and Amaznen niche, play a Myrmidarch Magus instead -- even with this being a sub-optimal Magus archetype, it's at least serviceable, with better weapon proficiency, the ability to temporarily enchant a weapon on the fly, better armored spellcasting after the first few levels, Weapon Training, only slightly fewer bonus feats in exchange for getting a few Magus Arcana, only slightly fewer hit points and only slightly less total attack bonus, greatly better spellcasting even with Diminished Spellcasting, a better Will Save, and vastly better action economy (Myrmidarch Magus helps you, while Child of Acavna and Amaznen actively shoots itself in the foot). (Anti)Paladin code kill switch aside, (Anti)Paladin doesn't actively shoot itself in the foot, and the decent selection of Swift Action cast spells are a noticeable boon, so it's a better 4/9 caster as well as a better martial than Child of Acavna and Amaznen.
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Honestly the entire thread is based on a false premise: Paladins are the "worst" because they're being arbitrarily held to a higher standard than the other classes.
I'm not even talking about the arbitrary standard of alignment restrictions , but the other comparisons. Lack of combat-style versatility is at least as much a problem for Bloodragers and CoA&A Fighters; sure the ranger wins hands-down, but that doesn't make the Paladin the worst, it just makes the Ranger the best in that aspect.
... Then I realized that they actually have some pretty good spells, that are still pretty good even at impaired caster level, with a decent subset that are Swift Action cast (more than in your average spell list), and some that don't trigger a Save from your enemies. sure, they have some stinkers too, but who doesn't?
Also, this can't really he overstated. The Paladin's spell list is actually very well designed. It may not be their strongest class feature , but it's a very well designed spell list to synergize with the rest of their abilities.
It's also worth noting that the Paladin gets so much more from their Casting-stat than other 4th level casters that they likely have more bonus spells per day. A Ranger or Bloodrager can reasonably be expected to max out their casting stat at 14 , which gives them just 1 bonus first and second level spell. Any Paladin I envision will end up with at least 22 CHA, giving them 2 bonus first and second level spells, and 1 bonus third and fourth level spell . Rangers and Bloodragers CAN increase their casting stats to match the Paladin, but they get so much less out of it that it's really costing them more than it does for a Paladin. This means that on average the Paladin is actually getting more spells per day than it looks when compared to the other 4th level casters .